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Alan Shatter doing his job!!!

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Comments

  • #62
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    karma_ wrote: »
    It does not matter that they then fought against Nazis, they abandoned their state during a time of war.

    War? It was only an Emergency.


  • #63
    Hunterbiker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Hunterbiker


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Guerilla activities I presume.

    We had some experience in that regard.

    Possibly although The Germans had form for punishment reprisals against communities who harboured resistence fighters in Europe and likely would have done the same in Ireland.

    Also these resistence groups were supported and co ordinated from Britain. Had Britain fallen the logistics to support such activity would likely have been near impossible from places like Canada / Mainland USA etc


  • #64
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Hunterbiker wrote: »
    I'm sure the figures are out there if you really need them.
    I'm not the one proposing that they exist

    Obviously people should be treated differently for deserting during a national security emergency as opposed to ordinary military activities.

    But some people appear to be saying that during the emergency, soldiers deserted and didn't join the British army. How many?


  • #65
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    It's there in the Irish Times article I quoted earlier, those who deserted not to fight in the British army weren't given the same treatment. They didn't mention a number, but it doesn't matter when it was 10 or 10,000, the fact of the matter is that they were treated differently.


  • #66
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    It's there in the Irish Times article I quoted earlier, those who deserted not to fight in the British army weren't given the same treatment. They didn't mention a number, but it doesn't matter when it was 10 or 10,000, the fact of the matter is that they were treated differently.
    Well as tempting as it is to simply take the Irish Times word for it, it would be interesting to know what authority of their information was on that point.

    I would fully agree that anyone who deserted during the Emergency should have been reprimanded most seriously for having done so. Whether they joined the British army or not. If the deserters who did not join were not reprimanded, then that is pretty outrageous alright.

    I don't have any interest in seeing their pardons refused now for their families' sake, but surely it's natural that a deserter be given dishonourable discharge, as well as forfeiting career prospects in the public service. Especially where he deserts his position during a time of vulnerability to attack.


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  • #67
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Nodin wrote: »
    Those consequences were designed post their desertion, afaik. And again - fighting Nazism is not something to be either condemned or frowned upon.


    I didn't condone or condemn fighting nazism.


  • #68
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    ...surely it's natural that a deserter be given dishonourable discharge...
    Sure.
    ...as well as forfeiting career prospects in the public service.
    Is that a generally-accepted punishment for desertion, or just a peculiarly Irish pound of flesh?


  • #69
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Hang on can you stand up for one point at a time please.


    I'll do as suits me.
    Cody Pomeray wrote: »

    I've never heard of these other men before.


    ....yet here you are, speaking on a matter you've not bothered to inform yourself.

    http://irishecho.com/?p=67165

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?188265-Heroism-and-betrayal-the-story-of-Irish-military-deserters-who-fought-for-the-Allies


  • #70
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    I'd say most of them left because the pay was better

    simples


  • #71
    Wildlife Actor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 491 ✭✭Wildlife Actor


    It has to be acknowledged that these were brave men. As someone said earlier, you can't abscond into a war. Anyone going to war is extremely brave whatever side they went to.

    And while they deserved formal sanction (and shouldn't be pardoned), for a state to interfere in their private lives (assuming it was the State and not just public opinion that resulted in their ill-treatment afterwards) is pretty despicable. Personally I think that the lack of a pardon s their badge of honour.

    What annoys me is that the Minister behind this is only interested because it suits his worldview. The same Minister that's sending troops to Mali and edging us closer to NATO. Who's been vitriolic about middle eastern matters while in opposition. Can you imagine the fate of a soldier in the Leb who ran off to protect Palestinian civilians?

    These brave soldiers may take some comfort in what's now been done. But they're just pawns.


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  • #72
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    ......

    I don't have any interest in seeing their pardons refused now for their families' sake, but surely it's natural that a deserter be given dishonourable discharge, as well as forfeiting career prospects in the public service. Especially where he deserts his position during a time of vulnerability to attack.

    ...as has been pointed out to you numerous times, these men were singled out for this treatment. If you bothered to look into the matter rather than continue to pontificate about something which you're clearly unfamiliar, you'd be better served by far.


  • #73
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....yet here you are, speaking on a matter you've not bothered to inform yourself.

    http://irishecho.com/?p=67165
    The "other men" I haven't heard about before are those deserters who did not join foreign armies.

    If they exist, I fully agree they should have been equally reprimanded as those who joined a foreign army.


  • #74
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    There was no dispute with regard to deserters who went to fight the nazis, went to fight for the nazis or who just p1ssed off. They were all deserters and deserved to be treated as such. EQUALLY


  • #75
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sure. Is that a generally-accepted punishment for desertion, or just a peculiarly Irish pound of flesh?
    Given that the UK provisions for desertion at this time were informed by the Army Act of 1881, you can rest assured it was pretty tame.


  • #76
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    They abandoned us in a war, I see them as deserters personally.

    They abandoned us during WW2 to fight in WW2.

    Pretty decent I would have thought?

    What if there had been an invasion?

    We would have been conquered with or without them, but invasion was a little less of a possibility due to their sacrifice. Good on them.


  • #77
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    What if there had been an invasion?
    ...Then the only army with a stated objective of defending Ireland was down thousands of soldiers.

    Ireland's strength was going to be guerilla warfare, and it couldn't afford to bleed military losses.


  • #78
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,840 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    done to death here previously http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056498258


  • #79
    TINA1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭TINA1984


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    They abandoned us during WW2 to fight in WW2.

    Pretty decent I would have thought?

    What if there had been an invasion?

    We would have been conquered with or without them, but invasion was a little less of a possibility due to their sacrifice. Good on them.

    My Grandfather served in the Irish army during WW2, when he was in training the point was repeatedly made to them that it was as likely that it would be the British and American army invading our country whom they would have to fight against as it would be the Germans.

    With that in mind, I can imagine how he and others who chose to defend our state would have felt in seeing their supposed comrades deserting to go and fight for an army of a state who had explicitly declared that they reserved the right to invade our country if they choose to.

    Just as well that FG weren't in power during WWII, no doubt the armchair generals in that party would have had no problem in allowing our army to be usefel pawns for the imperial powers, much like Redmond in WWI.


  • #80
    Hunterbiker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Hunterbiker


    TINA1984 wrote: »

    Just as well that FG weren't in power WWII, no doubt the armchair generals in that party would have had no problem in allowing our army to be usefel pawns for the imperial powers, much like Redmond in WWI.

    Sorry but whatever they told troops on the ground the 'leaders' were covering all the bases for work8bg with the UK it seems

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_W


  • #81
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    EURATS wrote: »
    There was no dispute with regard to deserters who went to fight the nazis, went to fight for the nazis or who just p1ssed off.

    They were all deserters and deserved to be treated as such. EQUALLY

    Those that deserted the Irish army (traffic duty, herding sheep, etc) and went to fight the Nazi's were true Irish heroes, and on their return
    they should have been treated as such, specially as the true horror of what the Nazi's were doing unfolded in the last year of the war.

    But even though the Irish authorities knew about the evil Nazi threat, they still turned their backs on the Irish soldiers who helped beat Hitler.

    But at lease now (68 years later) they are finally being recognised for what they did in the fight against the Nazis, its just a shame it took so long for their names to be honoured 'by the Irish authorities' . . .


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  • #82
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    LordSutch wrote: »
    WRONG!

    Those that deserted the Irish army (traffic duty, herding sheep, etc) and went to fight the Nazi's were true Irish heroes, and on their return
    they should have been treated as such, specially as the true horror of what the Nazi's were doing unfolded in the last year of the war.

    And even though the Irish authorities knew about the evil Nazi threat, they still turned their backs on the Irish soldiers who helped beat Hitler.

    But at lease now (68 years later) they are finally being recognised for what they did in the fight against the Nazis, its just a shame it took so long for their names to be honoured 'by the Irish authorities' . . . ..


    THAT IS YOUR OPINION!
    They were deserters. And nothing short of it. And deserved to be treated as such.
    THAT IS MY OPINION!


  • #83
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Those that deserted the Irish army (traffic duty, herding sheep, etc) and went to fight the Nazi's were true Irish heroes, and on their return
    they should have been treated as such
    by joining the army of a potential invader:confused:

    What are you on?


  • #84
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    by joining the army of a potential invader:confused:

    What are you on?

    Was actually thinking the same thing but didn't want to say it.

    Another question I would have that boggles the mind is how after 68 years...Germany is back, alive and well, wide awake behind the wheel...driving over everyone in their way without even firing a bullet.
    The "true Irish heroes" must really be gleaming with joy(those that are left).
    The others are turning in their graves!!


  • #85
    Schnitzel Muncher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Schnitzel Muncher


    What's the opposite of conscientious objector?


  • #86
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    unscrupulous accomplice.


  • #87
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »
    What's the opposite of conscientious objector?


    Alan shatter?


  • #88
    Hitchens
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,097 ✭✭✭Hitchens


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    They left a corrupt bananna pretend country to go and fight in a war that was in our best interest..those men were heroes
    they were then judged by people who were too cowardly to fight the nazis, and whose leader sent his condolences to the nazi leadership on the death of Adolf :mad:


  • #89
    Cedrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Court martial for desertion

    In six pages this is the only mention of a court martial which shows that the mean minded attitudes have not changed, not many here want to know anything about the history or the facts, just get the rope out!

    Most if not all of the people on the blacklist were never court martialed, their names were just added to a list by allegation of any officer with no need for any evidence and no right of response, furthermore no officers names were added to the list, only soldiers and sappers.

    This is what the apology is for. Some of them undoubtedly deserved to be punished but all of them deserved a trial, what they got was a lynching.


  • #90
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Good, now we should also see an apology for all the extrajudicial killings conducted by the Free State during the civil war. :pac:


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  • #91
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,329 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Love nor Money wrote: »
    It has to be acknowledged that these were brave men. As someone said earlier, you can't abscond into a war. Anyone going to war is extremely brave whatever side they went to.
    I'm surprised EURATS thanked this ...
    What annoys me is that the Minister behind this is only interested because it suits his worldview.
    What worldview would that have been?
    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    ...Then the only army with a stated objective of defending Ireland was down thousands of soldiers.

    Ireland's strength was going to be guerilla warfare, and it couldn't afford to bleed military losses.
    Forget about guerilla warfare, the Nazis were vermin that would have sooner destroyed everything in Ireland and murdered every last man woman and child than tolerate a guerilla opposition, if they had invaded here.

    Irelands' only hope of remaining independent was keeping the bastards out - the so-called "deserters" helped to ensure the Nazis never got this far. Planning for guerilla resistance was all well and fine but if it had ever got to that stage, it would have been too late.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



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