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Alan Shatter doing his job!!!

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    #2
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    EURATS wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wwii-irish-troops-set-for-pardons-29248191.html


    Nice to see Shatter making good use of his time.

    What's next? Apologise for the War of Independence?

    Wonder had we been invaded (as was planned) and we lost loads of civilians due to the lack of soldiers, would we be as forgiving? They abandoned us in a war, I see them as deserters personally.


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    #3
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Wonder had we been invaded (as was planned) and we lost loads of civilians due to the lack of soldiers, would we be as forgiving? They abandoned us in a war, I see them as deserters personally.

    100%. If they absconded from the British or US army they would also have been treated as such.


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    #4
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Seeing as how 'the blue shirts' fought with the Nazis as allies alongside Franco, it would be hypocritical for shatter to say anything else tbh.


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    #5
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,812 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I agree they needed to be punished as they disobeyed orders but the discrimination they suffered as far as not being able to get employment and being generally shunned was in my eyes slightly disgusting.
    Maybe they shouldnt get a pardon but an apology for how they were treated is deffinitely in order.


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    #6
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,241 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Wonder had we been invaded (as was planned) and we lost loads of civilians due to the lack of soldiers, would we be as forgiving? They abandoned us in a war, I see them as deserters personally.
    EURATS wrote: »
    100%. If they absconded from the British or US army they would also have been treated as such.

    Em... regardless of what banner they fought under, weren't tehy still preventing an invasion of Ireland? I mean, you can't abscond "into" a war...

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #7
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Em... regardless of what banner they fought under, weren't tehy still preventing an invasion of Ireland? I mean, you can't abscond "into" a war...

    They were in the Irish Army, who at the time were a neutral force. They abandoned their posts and countrymen to fight in a war we had yet to be involved in. There were plans by both Allies and the Axis powers to invade us and our ports as they were seen as a way to attack Britain from two sides. They left us in a weaker position against these invasions, had we been invaded, we stood some chance (albeit only a small one) of defending ourselves, they left us, meaning we were weaker. We are only lucky it did not get that far!


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    #8
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Em... regardless of what banner they fought under, weren't tehy still preventing an invasion of Ireland? I mean, you can't abscond "into" a war...

    They went AWOL from the army they enlisted in. Simple as. And there were consequences.


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    #9
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    EURATS wrote: »
    They went AWOL from the army they enlisted in. Simple as. And there were consequences.
    ...and those consequences went way beyond what would have been an appropriate punishment for their crime.


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    #10
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...and those consequences went way beyond what would have been an appropriate punishment for their crime.

    Isn't a quick firing squad the normal punishment for going AWOL at a time of war ?


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    #11
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,928 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    They left a corrupt bananna pretend country to go and fight in a war that was in our best interest..those men were heroes


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    #12
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...and those consequences went way beyond what would have been an appropriate punishment for their crime.

    NO


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    #13
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    They left a corrupt bananna pretend country


    That's what it is now. Correct.


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    #14
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jhegarty wrote: »
    Isn't a quick firing squad the normal punishment for going AWOL at a time of war ?
    We weren't at war.
    EURATS wrote: »
    NO
    Well reasoned. Do you feel that permanently destroying people's lives is such an appropriate punishment for desertion that it should be written into the code of military justice of every army?


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    #15
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    They left a corrupt bananna pretend country to go and fight in a war that was in our best interest..those men were heroes
    Our best interest was fighting for Nazi Germany? I've read some stupid posts in my time but this takes the biscuit...


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    #16
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,154 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    Completely inappropriate to pardon these men IMO

    Does this mean Irish soldiers can go AWOL whenever they like to get involved in foreign wars?
    I really don't understand this guy Shatter sometimes


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    #17
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,154 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    We weren't at war.

    Well reasoned. Do you feel that permanently destroying people's lives is such an appropriate punishment for desertion that it should be written into the code of military justice of every army?

    The article says that the deserters were "barred from state jobs, refused military pensions and faced with widespread discrimination."

    If you go AWOL and get dismissed from the Army, do you think they should get a nice government job for their efforts? Surely they wouldn't have the neck to ask for a military? Both of these punishments sound reasonable.

    So what is the discrimination that they suffered that is unjust?


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    #18
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,928 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Our best interest was fighting for Nazi Germany? I've read some stupid posts in my time but this takes the biscuit...
    not sure which article you read
    A pardon is due to be issued to thousands of Irish soldiers who joined the British Army to fight Nazi Germany


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    #19
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    We weren't at war.

    Well reasoned. Do you feel that permanently destroying people's lives is such an appropriate punishment for desertion that it should be written into the code of military justice of every army?


    I do of course. The Irish government has NO qualms about ruining people's lives.


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    #20
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    If those who deserted hadn't been treated so harshly on their return, this may not still be an issue today. The state wasn't content to reprimand them, but made sure that it become as hard as possible to live here for the rest of their lives.

    Indeed, it seems that the punishment meted out was less for desertion and more for joining the British army:
    Containing each soldier’s last recorded address, date of birth, declared occupation prior to enlistment in the Defence Forces, and date of dismissal, it was circulated to all government departments and state-run bodies, to ensure that nobody who quit in such circumstances ever secured a state job. Given the climate of the time, it made most unemployable.

    Soldiers who deserted but did not join the British army were treated differently: some were not even arrested, and their names were left off the list.


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    #21
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    keeponhurling wrote: »
    So what is the discrimination that they suffered that is unjust?
    They were denied social welfare, and had their names widely circulated to discourage employers from giving them work. Their children grew up more or less permanently hungry.

    If you feel this is an appropriate punishment for desertion, we don't have enough common ground for an intelligent conversation on the issue, frankly.


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    #22
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Indeed, it seems that the punishment meted out was less for desertion and more for joining the British army:
    It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the same reasoning prevails today, at least in some quarters. Which is pretty pathetic, considering even Sinn Féin appear to have supported the move to pardon them.


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    #23
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    They were denied social welfare, and had their names widely circulated to discourage employers from giving them work. Their children grew up more or less permanently hungry.

    If you feel this is an appropriate punishment for desertion, we don't have enough common ground for an intelligent conversation on the issue, frankly.

    Maybe they should have asked the queen(US president..whatever) they swore allegiance to for some social welfare?


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    #24
    aman23
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭aman23


    What about the bravery of Irish soldiers who fought with Nazi Germany? Alan, or is your amnesty one sided.


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    #25
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    EURATS wrote: »
    Maybe they should have asked the queen(US president..whatever) they swore allegiance to for some social welfare?

    Actually, efforts were made to take some of their British entitlements:
    Widders also argues that the 1941 Children Act, which sent thousands of youngsters to industrial schools exposed by the Ryan report in recent years, was used with particular vindictiveness against the children of deserters from the Defence Forces. “The Irish government lobbied the British government to have the payment of family allowances, to which married Irish soldiers in the British Army were entitled, paid directly to the Irish State [for children held in care]. In effect, this helped finance incarceration,” he writes.


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    #26
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    About bloody time those brave Irish men were pardoned (& honoured) for fighting against the Nazi's. Ireland must have been the only country on the planet with a twisted logic that dictated that the WWII heroes who fought the Nazi's were to be disgraced (instead of honoured).

    What a sick government we had back then, and well done to Alan Shatter.


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    #27
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    LordSutch wrote: »
    About bloody time those brave Irish men were pardoned (& honoured) for fighting against the Nazi's. Ireland must have been the only country on the planet with a twisted logic that dictated that the WWII heroes who fought the Nazi's were to be disgraced (instead of honoured).
    The logic wasn't that it was a disgrace to fight the Nazis.

    If it were, the Government would simply have punished everyone living in Ireland who had fought on the British side during WWII.

    Clearly, this policy was aimed at those who deserted the Irish army when that army and this jurisdiction was extremely vulnerable to foreign invasion.


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    #28
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Clearly, this policy was aimed at those who deserted the Irish army when that army and this jurisdiction was extremely vulnerable to foreign invasion.

    Exactly.


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    #29
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    EURATS wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wwii-irish-troops-set-for-pardons-29248191.html


    Nice to see Shatter making good use of his time.

    What's next? Apologise for the War of Independence?


    I'm not seeing the linkage.


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    #30
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm not seeing the linkage.

    Not sure why. Google "WWII Irish troops set for pardons"


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    #31
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,812 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The logic wasn't that it was a disgrace to fight the Nazis.

    If it were, the Government would simply have punished everyone living in Ireland who had fought on the British side during WWII.

    Clearly, this policy was aimed at those who deserted the Irish army when that army and this jurisdiction was extremely vulnerable to foreign invasion.

    Except it wasnt, those who went awol and didnt join the british army were left off the list circulated telling people not to employ them.


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