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Alan Shatter doing his job!!!

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    #32
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Except it wasnt, those who went awol and didnt join the british army were left off the list circulated telling people not to employ them.


    U have the list?


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    #33
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Except it wasnt, those who went awol and didnt join the british army were left off the list circulated telling people not to employ them.
    How many went AWOL and didn't emigrate or join other forces?


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    #34
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    EURATS wrote: »
    Not sure why. Google "WWII Irish troops set for pardons"


    Very amusing. I'm not seeing the linkage between the pardons and "What's next? Apologise for the War of Independence?


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    #35
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Nodin wrote: »
    Very amusing. I'm not seeing the linkage between the pardons and "What's next? Apologise for the War of Independence?


    So? The point was they deserted the IDF and deserved their punishment.


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    #36
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    LordSutch wrote: »
    About bloody time those brave Irish men were pardoned (& honoured) for fighting against the Nazi's. Ireland must have been the only country on the planet with a twisted logic that dictated that the WWII heroes who fought the Nazi's were to be disgraced (instead of honoured).

    What a sick government we had back then, and well done to Alan Shatter.

    These men broke an oath and deserted. It does not matter that they then fought against Nazis, they abandoned their state during a time of war. Was their treatment unfair by today's standards? Undoubtedly yes. However, even today if you desert the UK forces you face life imprisonment which by any standard is a harsher penalty.


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    #37
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,928 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    the deserters did the right thing.


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    #38
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    EURATS wrote: »
    So? The point was they deserted the IDF and deserved their punishment.

    "So?"...why did you include the reference to the war of independence? What point were you trying to make? What relevance does it have to the issue of the pardons?


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    #39
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    karma_ wrote: »
    Was their treatment unfair by today's standards? Undoubtedly yes.
    If you can point to a source that indicates that the standard punishment by a court martial for desertion at the time was social ostracism, please do.
    However, even today if you desert the UK forces you face life imprisonment which by any standard is a harsher penalty.
    My understanding is that the maximum penalty while not at war is two years and a dishonourable discharge. Again, if you have a source that indicates differently, please share it.


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    #40
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Nodin wrote: »
    "So?"...why did you include the reference to the war of independence? What point were you trying to make? What relevance does it have to the issue of the pardons?


    Because of Irish politicians' habit of being spineless and apologist towards people who have wronged us.


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    #41
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If you can point to a source that indicates that the standard punishment by a court martial for desertion at the time was social ostracism, please do. My understanding is that the maximum penalty while not at war is two years and a dishonourable discharge. Again, if you have a source that indicates differently, please share it.


    The world was at war at the time. So your point has no relevance.


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    #42
    skimpydoo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Our best interest was fighting for Nazi Germany? I've read some stupid posts in my time but this takes the biscuit...
    You are getting the wrong end of the stick. He was talking about them fighting against the Nazi's which was the right thing to do.


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    #43
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    EURATS wrote: »
    The world was at war at the time. So your point has no relevance.
    Ireland was not at war at the time.


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    #44
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Ireland was not at war at the time.

    Correct. It was called the emergency here. And what we needed was our defence forces jumping ship and then expecting to waltz back in and be treated like heroes and be supported by the state.


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    #45
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    EURATS wrote: »
    Correct. It was called the emergency here. And what we needed was our defence forces jumping ship and then expecting to waltz back in and be treated like heroes
    Oh look, a straw man.

    Did you have anything other than bile and logical fallacies to contribute?


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    #46
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    EURATS wrote: »
    Because of Irish politicians' habit of being spineless and apologist towards people who have wronged us.


    ...strikes me as rather a bizarre issue to drag into it.

    However - these men went off to fight the Nazis. Thats not a bad thing, nor is it "wrong". They were singled out for special treatment, which was unfair. Thus an apology and pardons are fitting.


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    #47
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If you can point to a source that indicates that the standard punishment by a court martial for desertion at the time was social ostracism, please do.

    I am not saying this treatment was acceptable. However I believe the penalties imposed about losing relevant pay, pensions and being excluded from state work is a fair penalty for desertion.
    My understanding is that the maximum penalty while not at war is two years and a dishonourable discharge. Again, if you have a source that indicates differently, please share it.

    The armed forces bill has this - *[or of life if he intends to avoid a "relevant service" or was under orders when he deserted]*


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    #48
    Hunterbiker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Hunterbiker


    karma_ wrote: »
    I am not saying this treatment was acceptable. However I believe the penalties imposed about losing relevant pay, pensions and being excluded from state work is a fair penalty for desertion.



    The armed forces bill has this - *[or of life if he intends to avoid a "relevant service" or was under orders when he deserted]*

    But this wasn't applied 'fairly' in that deserters who didn't serve for The Allies and just deserted didn't go on the list.

    That's the crux of the matter - they were singled out...


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    #49
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    karma_ wrote: »
    I am not saying this treatment was acceptable. However I believe the penalties imposed about losing relevant pay, pensions and being excluded from state work is a fair penalty for desertion.

    ...that was as penalty used exclusively against those who joined the British forces to fight the nazis, afaik.


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    #50
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Hunterbiker wrote: »
    But this wasn't applied 'fairly' in that deserters who didn't serve for The Allies and just deserted didn't go on the list.

    That's the crux of the matter - they were singled out...
    How many deserted and didn't join the British army at this time?


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    #51
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...strikes me as rather a bizarre issue to drag into it.

    However - these men went off to fight the Nazis. Thats not a bad thing, nor is it "wrong". They were singled out for special treatment, which was unfair. Thus an apology and pardons are fitting.

    Nothing bizarre about it.

    They were wrong in so far as they deserted the IDF and therefore deserved the consequences. If those consequences were too harsh...then that's a different matter.


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    #52
    Hunterbiker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Hunterbiker


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    How many deserted and didn't join the British army at this time?

    I haven't git the figures and my assertion is based the various articles Ive read. The story on rte news today makes reference to it.

    I read that the list included names of those KIA.


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    #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    EURATS wrote: »
    Nothing bizarre about it.

    They were wrong in so far as they deserted the IDF and therefore deserved the consequences. If those consequences were too harsh...then that's a different matter.


    Those consequences were designed post their desertion, afaik. And again - fighting Nazism is not something to be either condemned or frowned upon.


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    #54
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Hunterbiker wrote: »
    I haven't git the figures and my assertion is based the various articles Ive read. The story on rte news today makes reference to it.
    Well if people are proposing that other deserters had deserted during 'the Emergency' and were not placed on the list, then that's very relevant and should be substantiated.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Those consequences were designed post their desertion, afaik. And again - fighting Nazism is not something to be either condemned or frowned upon.
    Eh, neither is feeding malnourished babies in the horn of Africa, building schools for Guatamalan children, or saving rainforests.

    Nevertheless, no soldier should be able to rely on the defence of 'other humanitarian work' when he is deserting his army during a national emergency, when that army is vulnerable to invasion and warfare.


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    #55
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,834 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Well if people are proposing that other deserters had deserted during 'the Emergency' and were not placed on the list, then that's very relevant and should be substantiated.


    Eh, neither is feeding malnourished babies in the horn of Africa, building schools for Guatamalan children, or saving rainforests.

    Nevertheless, no soldier should be able to rely on the defence of 'other humanitarian work' when he is deserting his army during a national emergency, when that army is vulnerable to invasion and warfare.


    On the other side of the coin im interested in terms of what defence we would have put up against the Nazi Military machine tbh. They overwhelmed a vastly superior armed french military system which resulted in surrender.


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    #56
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »

    Nevertheless, no soldier should be able to rely on the defence of 'other humanitarian work' when he is deserting his army during a national emergency, when that army is vulnerable to invasion and warfare.

    ...which again misses out on the fact that these people were treated differently to other deserters.


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    #57
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Was listening to the radio this morning, and the treatment of these men and there families, was just appalling. They went way overboard punishing these men for desertion, and that is not even mentioning what happened to there children etc. IMHO, they certainly deserve a pardon, due to the overboard way they were punished.


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    #58
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...which again misses out on the fact that these people were treated differently to other deserters.
    Hang on can you stand up for one point at a time please.

    You've just mentioned that fighting against Nazi Germany was not to be condemned. Not in itself it's not.

    If you now want to move off that point and go on to something else we can do so.

    I've never heard of these other men before.

    What other deserters were the soldiers treated differently to during the emergency? How many men deserted during the emergency and did not fight the Nazis?


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    #59
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    we were a country that was barley 20 years old ! many irish men didnt want another war


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    #60
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    listermint wrote: »
    [/B]

    On the other side of the coin im interested in terms of what defence we would have put up against the Nazi Military machine tbh.
    Guerilla activities I presume.

    We had some experience in that regard.


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    #61
    Hunterbiker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭Hunterbiker


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Well if people are proposing that other deserters had deserted during 'the Emergency' and were not placed on the list, then that's very relevant and should be
    I'm sure the figures are out there if you really need them. I would imagine the number is small in comparison to those that went to fight though. I haven't seen the Minister disagreeing that treatment and punishment wasn't applied fairly so that's good enough for me.


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