The Perfect Program

cmyk · 23-04-2013 09:40AM

Padkir wrote: »

Is there so little hope for me that I've stopped a good thread in its tracks with my story? :eek:

As Will mentioned, you've asked a lot of specific questions, it's not really applicable to this thread, maybe start a new one, it'll probably get you more answers...or read the first few pages of this thread?

ScissorPaperRock · 30-04-2013 12:59AM

So... is there any consensus on the 'perfect programme'?

cletus van damme · 01-05-2013 11:57AM

what would the consensus be on the following:

Day 1
1 Bench (105kg) Max 3-5 reps
2 Inverted Row (BW) 3 Sets of 20
3A Db Row (40kg) 4 sets of 8-12 reps
3B DB Rear Delt fly (12kg)
4 DB Bench (25kg) 2 Sets of 20
5 Dips 4 sets of (BW) 10-12reps

Day 2
1 Squat (170kg) Max 3-5 reps
2 DL (170kg) Max 3-5 reps
3 RDL 100kg 4 sets of 10-12reps

Day 3
1 Chins / Pull ups (BW) 3 sets of 5 reps
2 Barbell Shoulder press (70kg) Max 3-5 reps
3 DB Shrugs (45-50kg) 4 sets of 10-12reps
4 Curls (20-22kg) DB 4 sets of 10-12reps

Notes.
(Edit as per Will's request below)

BW = 95kg

1 RM Bench = 110kg
1 RM Squat = 190kg
1 RM DL = 190kg

My main aim is to be stonger, muscular,lean and to be half decent at muay thai.

I also do 3 muay thai sessions a week - so I can only do 1 leg session with lowish volume or the recovery isn't there.

Max 3-5 reps - means working up to a set where I can achieve a set of 3-5 reps but no more.

If the invetsed row gets too easy I will increase the volume.

I'm not a huge fan of pullups so I'm only beginning to throw them in - hence the 5 reps. That will go up once I improve.

Direct core work will happen at muay thai.

fire away!

Will Heffernan · 01-05-2013 12:43PM

cletus van damme wrote: »

what would the consensus be on the following:

Day 1
1 Bench Max 3-5 reps
2 Inverted Row 3 Sets of 20
3A Db Row 4 sets of 8-12 reps
3B DB Rear Delt fly
4 DB Bench 2 Sets of 20
5 Dips 4 sets of 10-12reps

Day 2
1 Squat Max 3-5 reps
2 DL Max 3-5 reps
3 RDL 4 sets of 10-12reps

Day 3
1 Chins / Pull ups 3 sets of 5 reps
2 Barbell Shoulder press Max 3-5 reps
3 DB Shrugs 4 sets of 10-12reps
4 Curls 4 sets of 10-12reps

1. Weights? Resistance?
2. BW?

cletus van damme · 01-05-2013 01:39PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

1. Weights? Resistance?
2. BW?

Hi Will, I've added details above.
Thanks.

Will Heffernan · 01-05-2013 01:54PM

1. You start Day 1 with just a max effort set of 3-5 reps.
2. How do you do your inverted rows? Feet up? Feet down? What sort of body angle to the bar? Chest touch on every rep? Controlled reps or 'kipping' inverted rows?
3. 3B DB Rear Delt fly (12kg)? Reps? Sets?
4. Squat (170kg) Max 3-5 reps? 1 set?
5. DL (170kg) Max 3-5 reps? 1 set?

Once you clarify your program why don't you calculate the volume of your horizontal pushing and pulling? Your vertical pushing and pulling? Along with your quad dominant versus hip dominant work?

Give us some totals and then we can have a look at the balance.

cletus van damme · 01-05-2013 02:06PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

1. You start Day 1 with just a max effort set of 3-5 reps.
2. How do you do your inverted rows? Feet up? Feet down? What sort of body angle to the bar? Chest touch on every rep? Controlled reps or 'kipping' inverted rows?
3. 3B DB Rear Delt fly (12kg)? Reps? Sets?
4. Squat (170kg) Max 3-5 reps? 1 set?
5. DL (170kg) Max 3-5 reps? 1 set?

Once you clarify your program why don't you calculate the volume of your horizontal pushing and pulling? Your vertical pushing and pulling? Along with your quad dominant versus hip dominant work?

Give us some totals and then we can have a look at the balance.

1. I would work up to that , admittedly I haven't recorded what I'd do but it would be something like
60kg x 5, 80kg x 5, 90kg x5, 100kg x 3, 105kg x 3

2. Inverted row using smith machine bar and feet on a bench. chest touch. no kipping. angle ? tbh I'm not sure I never really considered it. Smith machine bar set around waist level.
sorry if that's vague. i never considered some of those.

3. That would be supersetted with the DB row - 4 sets of 12reps.

4. same theory as bench - work up to it with series of lower weight 5-3 reps.
like 60x5,80x5, 100x5, 120kg x 3, 140x3, 160x 3, 170kg x 3

5. the same as 4.

I'll go figure and come back .

Thanks

Will Heffernan · 01-05-2013 02:20PM

cletus van damme wrote: »

1. I would work up to that , admittedly I haven't recorded what I'd do but it would be something like
60kg x 5, 80kg x 5, 90kg x5, 100kg x 3, 105kg x 3

2. Invested row using smith machine bar and feet on a bench. chest touch. no kipping. angle ? tbh I'm not sure I never really considered it. Smith machine bar set around waist level.
sorry if that's vague. i never considered some of those.

3. That would be supersetted with the DB row - 4 sets of 12reps.

4. same theory as bench - work up to it with series of lower weight 5-3 reps.
like 60x5,80x5, 100x5, 120kg x 3, 140x3, 160x 3, 170kg x 3

5. the same as 4.

I'll go figure and come back .

Thanks

Cool.

It is worth knowing the numbers and volume totals before discussing it further.

RomanGod · 01-05-2013 09:22PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Cool.

It is worth knowing the numbers and volume totals before discussing it further.

I don't think the problem is with choosing one program, but trying various ones to see what suits your needs

Regardless of goals, free weights surpasses smith machines

Limiting rest time to 30 seconds is preferable

Reps between 8 and 10 for hypertrophy with 75% of your max

Reps between 3 and 5 for strength gain with 90% of your max

And maybe once a month try 100% for 1 set

Easy

Mellor · 02-05-2013 05:13AM

RomanGod wrote: »

I don't think the problem is with choosing one program, but trying various ones to see what suits your needs

What sort of needs affects the program choice? Are we talking exercise choice here?

Regardless of goals, free weights surpasses smith machines

He was doing inverted rows, smith machine is prob the best for that imo.

Limiting rest time to 30 seconds is preferable

Why?

And maybe once a month try 100% for 1 set

Why?
What sort of sets/reps/warm-up.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I'm not saying your right either). Backing up good advice when asked "why" shouldn't be hard though. Without that, most of what you suggested was generic men's health stuff that doesn't really help anyone.

sweetthing · 02-05-2013 08:30AM

I usually just do the excersizes Men's Health recommend every month, which means doing different routines every month, and following celebrities' 'routines'.

Or moreover, this is what i used to do before I started lurking here. Thank christ for that.

Brian? · 02-05-2013 09:36AM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Cool.

It is worth knowing the numbers and volume totals before discussing it further.

Way too much pushing.

Will Heffernan · 02-05-2013 10:03AM

Brian? wrote: »

Way too much pushing.

I am trying to be gentle and ease it out of them.

Ohhhh you mean HE's doing way too much pushing. Yes, but it is better if people work that out for themselves.

As an aside...have you looked at this forum or any of the training logs here? You might see a general pattern in the programs.

As an aside to my aside...I would love to know how many posters here and or gym goers in general have injured themselves this passed year...and how many of these people are critiquing programs here.

Sangre · 02-05-2013 11:22AM

Was going to do this in another thread but thought this was just as fitting. What do people think of my current programme broadly speaking? Obviously not looking for a line by line analysis. I don't follow-up any set programmes and the below has been pulled by me out of nowhere .

General
Warm-up: 5 minute cycle to gym and brisk 2/3 minutes on the rower or cross trainer.

Static stretching: force myself to do hip and calf work some evenings. Ankle mobility is quite poor at moment.
Cardio: General bike commuting and now with better weather longer distance cycling (e.g. Ring of Kerry 180km)
BW: 77.5kg

Goals
Long term: Stay strong, healthy and look well
Short term: Gain mobility for pistol squats. Gain strength for one arm push-ups. Do a muscle-up (haven't really attempt these yet)

Limitations
I work pretty long hours constantly so have limited time to work with. I am not a fan of stretching or mobility given time I have so the only way I can incorporate it in is with goals e.g. I want to do X movement.

Day 1 (Tuesday AM)

A1 Pull-ups 10kg 3x6 (rep range and weight varies)
B1 Deadlift 122.5kg 3x5 (low weight for now as haven't done these in a while)
C1 Bent over Row 65kg
C2 Handstand Pushup 3x3
D1 L-Sit 3x10s
D2 Inverted Row (parallel to floor) 3x8
E1 Seated DB Curls 17.5kg 3x6
E2 Negative Dragon Flags/Straight leg hanging leg raise etc 3x5/3x10

Day 2 (Thursday/Friday AM)

Prehab - DC Crew workout
A1 Bench Press 90kg 3x5 (mix up rep range)
A2 DB Bent over flys 2kg 3x10 (I think they're call)
B1 Chin-ups 12.5kg 3x6 (mix up rep range)
C1 Handstand Pushup 3x4
C2 Hanging Leg Raise 3x10
D1 Diamond Push-ups (trying to work to 1 arm pushup) 3x12
D2 DB Bicel Curl 15kg 3x10
E1 Tricep Pulldown 3x10
E2 Face pull 3x12

Day 3 (Saturady)

Mobility - focus on hip and ankles
A1 Pistol Squat 4x10 (attempted that is, support still needed)
B1 Barbell Squat 110kg 5x3 (find these pretty tough after pistols)
B2 Curls 12.5kg 4x10
C1 DB Single Deadlift 12.5kg 3x10 (used to do Barbell SLDL)
C2 Wide Grip Pull-ups c.3x6
D1 Seated Calf Raise 45kg 3x10
D2 Negative Dragon Flag 3x5
E1 Weighted Plank 10kg x30s and unweighted each side 30s

RomanGod · 02-05-2013 12:17PM

Mellor wrote: »

What sort of needs affects the program choice? Are we talking exercise choice here?

He was doing inverted rows, smith machine is prob the best for that imo.

Why?

Why?
What sort of sets/reps/warm-up.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I'm not saying your right either). Backing up good advice when asked "why" shouldn't be hard though. Without that, most of what you suggested was generic men's health stuff that doesn't really help anyone.

Yup. Different programs can simply mean different exercises

But you can do a pull/push routine, upper/lower routine or a 5 day split

Just changing it up. Keeps you hungry, looking forward to your next workout .. nothing worse than being bored at the gym

Free weight beats smith machine in every aspect. You work your stabilizer muscle and it's all about functional strength

I hear guys who say they can row or bench 4 plates on a smith machine but that's with a leverage system

Machines have their place maybe for a warm down, but I wouldn't do working sets on them

Again having a day where you just come into the gym and do a 1 rep max is something different, it's something that your body is not used to. Plus it's always good to know what your 1 rep max is so you can find out what 70% of that is (for 8 reps) and 90% (for 3 reps)

The reason why 70% goes with 8 reps you may ask? Just go into the gym yourself tomorrow and try it. You could probably bench 100kg for arguments sake. I would put a lot of money that if I asked you to do 8 reps with good form you would be putting 70kg on the bar. Sure you COULD try 80 but why sacrifice form for just 10kg, save that intensity for your max day which will increase your 70% working sets in the future

The reason why 'bro-science' and 'Mens health' gets quoted is because some of it is true. It may not work entirely but it has a placebo effect to it

Lifting is not hard, people need to stop over-complicating it.

PCros · 02-05-2013 01:21PM

Hi all,

Just wondering if someone can do up a simple enough workout routine for me over 3 days working on mainly upper body and some leg. The other day or 2 I will do running on a threadmill beforehand for about 15mins.

I have access to a pullup bar, dumbbells and barbell with bench.

Just looking to put on a bit of mass but more for tone.

Let me know if I'm missing any info.

Thanks in advance

Antisocialiser · 02-05-2013 02:34PM

How did this turn into a 'design my gym routine' thread?

cletus van damme · 02-05-2013 02:38PM

Brian? wrote: »

Way too much pushing.

Thanks.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I am trying to be gentle and ease it out ofthem.

Ohhhh you mean HE's doing way too much pushing. Yes, but it is better ifpeople work that out for themselves.

.

I guessed thats what you were doing ...tough love...the worst kind

Okay... - let focus on upper body

This being awkward in that i haven't considered exercises in this way before
and maybe classified these wrong.
Also assuming by volume you meant reps rather than some work/force aspect i.e reps x weight.

But here goes:

Horizontal Push

Bench - 21 reps (5,5,5,3,3)

Db Bench - 40reps (20x2)

Total - 61

Horizontal Pull

inverted row - 60reps (3 x 20)

Db row - 40 reps ( 4 x 10)

Db rear delt - 48 (4 x 12)

total - 148

Vertical Pull

Chins - 15reps ( 5 x 3)

Shrugs - 40reps (4 x 10)

Curls - 40reps (4x10) (?)

Total – 95

Vertical Push

Dips – reps40 (4x10)

Shoulderpress – 21 ((5,5,5,3,3)

Total – 61

I would see there I’m doing less pushing overall than pulling.
However based on what I was told about aiming for back volume to be twice chestvolume, is that a bad thing?
However I do see the Horizontal pull is a good deal out of sync.

I'm starting to overthink now...

Edit - inlcuding lower body now

Quad Dominant
Squat - 27 reps - (5,5,5,3,3,3,3)

Total - 27

Hip Dom
DL - 27 reps - - (5,5,5,3,3,3,3)
RDL - 40 reps - (4x10)

Total - 67

ok ..see mismatch there....!

As Gaeilge · 02-05-2013 04:04PM

Long time lurker just signed up - great forum and great to benefit from all the personal experience. Hanley mentioned one thing I think very relevant (to me anyway), (1) maximal effort is key.

I've no doubt my general approach sucks but it works for me although I suspect that might be more thanks to the effort than the science & if I had a more efficient approach I may benefit more - I am most definitely a true amateur

Summary Stats
Age 40, BW 70.4kg, bodyfat approx 10%, predicted 1RM bench 91kg (have done 2x 87.5kg), predicted 1RM hex bar DL 192kg (was doing 3x5 165kg), max chins 17, max inverted row 24 (BW with chest to bar & feet on the ground)

All the above from testing with local GAA team.

Summary training approach
Mon: Chest superset with gunzzzz (I don't specifically train triceps)
Tues: 2x sessions (1) Legs superset with core and (2) Hurling training
Wed: Back and shoulders
Thurs: Hurling training
Fri: Chest
Sat: Off
Sun: Off or match

Additional to this Mon - Fri 40 - 60 mins on the bike cycling to/from work - time is dependent on the RPE, i.e. the harder I go the less time it takes

Example of training program
My programs have had to be modified as I'm managing a shoulder impingement and just getting past a hip labral tear so some of the current exercises/lifts are as a result of this - and I also tend to change the actual lifts out of pure boredom but I do try and keep to the same intent with the exercise, e.g. change BB bench to DB or Cable, etc.

Warm up for all sessions includes foam rolling relevant muscle groups where possible plus some sets of higher reps/lighter weights for the first set of lifts gradually working to the working weights.

Right now I'm training heavy weight for strength gains - I don't care about achieving any excessive hypertrophy.

Chest w/ Gunzzz (push session)
Note: Depending on how shoulder feels I'll switch between DB and BB (DB puts more pressure on the shoulder):
4x6 Bench 35kg DB or 75kg BB + 4x6 18.5kg DB Hammer Curl
3x6 Incline Bench 27.5kg DB or 60kg BB + 3x6 35kg EZ bar curl
4x6 Bent-over cable press 77kg + 4x6 50kg cable bicep curl

Legs w/ Core
Note: I was squatting and deadlifting (hex bar) but since the hip labral tear I've temporarily stopped and am doing single leg BW plus using leg press & hamstring curl
4x12 single leg 1/2 squat (unused leg is not supported and extends to the rear)
4x15 200kg leg press + 4x8 55kg ham curl
4x15 unweighted single leg calf raise
4x4 60kg clean from mid-thigh (don't have the range of motion for anything else)
4x30s front plank
2x30s side plank (per side)
4x30 hip bridge
4x4 turkish get up (I really, really hate this!)

Back w/ Shoulders (primarily a pull session)
3x15 cable external rotation
4x6 25kg DB shoulder press*
4x6 91kg cable lat pulldown w slight lean backwards to bring in upper back
4x6 70kg BB bent over row
3x8 unweighted chins wide grip
4x6 135kg seated cable row

*Stopped for now due to shoulder impingement

Chest
4x6 60kg Narrow grip bench
4x6 Bent-over cable press 77kg

Additional Notes
(1) Obviously I want to look good nekid

but the primary motivation right now is for strength
(2) I do 2x chest per week because I see this as a week point in my physique
(3) My conditioning is good and anaerobically I am very fit (hurling training is with a Senior Div1 team in Dublin & I'm one of fittest in the panel)
(4) My problems with shoulder impingement come and go depending on volume of training - currently I'm happy to live with it but for how long who knows
(5) Hip labral tear was due to overuse but since I've stopped squatting and DL (also eased off cycling) I have no issue with pain or mobility
(6) My general range of motion and flexibiliy would be considered poor but unfortunately I cannot motivate myself to address this

(6) I love training and generally work to failure with every session - RPE never less than 8.5

(7) I supplement with the following (won't mention the manufacturer):
* A combination mass builder + glutamine every morning
* BCAAs every morning
* Whey after every weights session
* Gunpowder in advance of all conditioning/hurling training (made my face itchy the first time I used it thanks to overdosing....!!! :eek::o)

Scuba Ste · 02-05-2013 05:08PM

Maybe there should be a 'rate my program' thread?? Maybe a mod could move the recent posts there?

This was a good thread about what makes up a good program as opposed to a 'make me a good program please' thread

Not taking away from the recent posts, there's some good stuff in them but the original idea of the thread's been lost a bit.

Brian? · 02-05-2013 10:37PM

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Maybe there should be a 'rate my program' thread?? Maybe a mod could move the recent posts there?

This was a good thread about what makes up a good program as opposed to a 'make me a good program please' thread

Not taking away from the recent posts, there's some good stuff in them but the original idea of the thread's been lost a bit.

It shall be done soon.

Will Heffernan · 02-05-2013 11:02PM

cletus van damme wrote: »

Thanks.

I guessed thats what you were doing ...tough love...the worst kind

Okay... - let focus on upper body

This being awkward in that i haven't considered exercises in this way before
and maybe classified these wrong.
Also assuming by volume you meant reps rather than some work/force aspect i.e reps x weight.

But here goes:

Horizontal Push

Bench - 21 reps (5,5,5,3,3)

Db Bench - 40reps (20x2)

Total - 61

Horizontal Pull

inverted row - 60reps (3 x 20)

Db row - 40 reps ( 4 x 10)

Db rear delt - 48 (4 x 12)

total - 148

Vertical Pull

Chins - 15reps ( 5 x 3)

Shrugs - 40reps (4 x 10)

Curls - 40reps (4x10) (?)

Total – 95

Vertical Push

Dips – reps40 (4x10)

Shoulderpress – 21 ((5,5,5,3,3)

Total – 61

I would see there I’m doing less pushing overall than pulling.
However based on what I was told about aiming for back volume to be twice chestvolume, is that a bad thing?
However I do see the Horizontal pull is a good deal out of sync.

I'm starting to overthink now...

Edit - inlcuding lower body now

Quad Dominant
Squat - 27 reps - (5,5,5,3,3,3,3)

Total - 27

Hip Dom
DL - 27 reps - - (5,5,5,3,3,3,3)
RDL - 40 reps - (4x10)

Total - 67

ok ..see mismatch there....!

Good to see you doing the hard yards and trying to do at least some of the work for yourself...that's a rarity here on boards and as such...you shall be rewarded.

1. It's not just a matter of adding up the reps...work out the volume...the total volume shifted in each session....so now go away and times the reps and sets by the loading...then come back with the volumes.

2. A couple of points on your classifications....a) The way that you do your dips...do you mainly do them for you chest or triceps? If it's the latter then I'm happy with your classification...if it isn't then you need to think about it. b) Stuff like shrugs and calf raises I don't bother with. Same with single joint stuff...the body tends do protect itself from trainers own idiocy in that regard. I mainly worry about compound/multi joint stuff where you can use mechanical advantage to do some truly awesome damage to yourself. c) So leave the shrugs and curls out of you calculations.

cletus van damme · 03-05-2013 02:24PM

Horizontal Push
Bench - 1765 (60*5+80*5+90*5+100*3+105*3)
Db Bench - 1000 (25*20*2 )
2765

Horizontal Pull
inverted row - 5700 (95*20*3) unsure how to measure precisely given angle issues
Db row - 1600 (40*10*4 )
Db rear delt - 576 (12*4*12)
7876

Vertical Pull
Chins - 1425 (95*5*3 )
Shrugs - (left out)
Curls - (left out)
1425

Vertical Push
Dips – 3800 (95*4*10 )
Shoulderpress – 1155 (40*5+50*5+60*5+65*3+70*3)
4955

Quad Dom
Squat - 2970 (60*5+80*5+100*5+120*3+140*3+160*3+170*3)
2970

Hip Dom
DL - 2970 (60*5+80*5+100*5+120*3+140*3+160*3+170*3)
RDL - 4000 (100*4*10)
6970

Totals
Horizontal Push 2765
Horizontal Pull 7876
Vertical Pull 1425
Vertical Push 4955
Quad Dom 2970
Hip Dom 6970

Ok,
Effort 3 reads a bit reasonable.
It's clear that based on the totals that there is some (maybe more than some) discrepancies between the various push/pull

Dips would be chest related and I've removed shrugs and curls from that.

so what's the verdict?
I'm guessing I need to substitute some exercises for others , given that I need to balance the numbers and that these session take up all my available time (so adding something won't fix it)

If mods want to move this to the new thread , fire away.

balls - it look great till i save it

hope it read ok.

Thanks

Will Heffernan · 03-05-2013 11:47PM

cletus van damme wrote: »

Horizontal Push
Bench - 1765 (60*5+80*5+90*5+100*3+105*3)
Db Bench - 1000 (25*20*2 )
2765

Horizontal Pull
inverted row - 5700 (95*20*3) unsure how to measure precisely given angle issues
Db row - 1600 (40*10*4 )
Db rear delt - 576 (12*4*12)
7876

Vertical Pull
Chins - 1425 (95*5*3 )
Shrugs - (left out)
Curls - (left out)
1425

Vertical Push
Dips – 3800 (95*4*10 )
Shoulderpress – 1155 (40*5+50*5+60*5+65*3+70*3)
4955

Quad Dom
Squat - 2970 (60*5+80*5+100*5+120*3+140*3+160*3+170*3)
2970

Hip Dom
DL - 2970 (60*5+80*5+100*5+120*3+140*3+160*3+170*3)
RDL - 4000 (100*4*10)
6970

Totals
Horizontal Push 2765
Horizontal Pull 7876
Vertical Pull 1425
Vertical Push 4955
Quad Dom 2970
Hip Dom 6970

Ok,
Effort 3 reads a bit reasonable.
It's clear that based on the totals that there is some (maybe more than some) discrepancies between the various push/pull

Dips would be chest related and I've removed shrugs and curls from that.

so what's the verdict?
I'm guessing I need to substitute some exercises for others , given that I need to balance the numbers and that these session take up all my available time (so adding something won't fix it)

If mods want to move this to the new thread , fire away.

balls - it look great till i save it
hope it read ok.

Thanks

1. You've done a good job.
2. You can halve the inverted row number...as with push ups the loading isn't BW and like push ups the 'actual' loading is dependent on body angle and hand position...just to make it easy and because it is usually not too far off...I just halve BW to calculate the resistance.
3. Looking at the DB press I am assuming you are doing 25's for 20 reps for 2 sets rather than 12.5kg a hand so that volume should be doubled. Correct me if I am wrong?
4. With the rear delt work again I am going to assume you are using 12kg a hand so that needs to be doubled.

So from what I see your pushing volume is...1765+2000+3800+1155 = 8720kg
Your pulling volume is 2850+1600+1150+1425=7025kg

The quad verus hip volumes are 3000kg to 7000kg.

I will tell you what I think...easiest bit first...the quad to hip ratio isn't too far off what I look for myself...I usually say 1:2 ratio. I have a lot of reasons for that which I won't go into now...but thats what I look for.

Now your pushing to pulling ration is 1:0.8. When I first looked at it I actually thought it was about 1:1 but it isn't even that. I don't go around making exact calculations when I am writing programs but my push to pull ratio is pretty much always 1:1.5 or more. For me personally...the programs I do myself are closer to 1:2 pushing to pulling. Again there are a million reasons for this but suffice to say 1. I've not had a injury that was 'training' related in a long, long, long time. 2. I am in my 40's and still fighting all day at work and then fighting in my spare time and my body handles it all without a bother. 3. Look at the total mass of the muscles involved in pushing and pulling. Think about what constitutes appropriate loading and volume in relation to the mass differential between the two muscle groups.

In short...your program is pretty good and no need to stress about it...add some more pulling volume...some more pull ups/chin up and you'd probably find all your numbers improving while bulletproofing yourself against and instance of chronic injury in the future.

cmyk · 05-05-2013 11:23PM

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

So... is there any consensus on the 'perfect programme'?

I think everyone should be seeing certain recurring themes and commonalities throughout the thread.

As the vast majority of my clients are weight loss, i'll give a bit of input to this that might be off centre a little bit as there are so many variables in terms of demographic. The majority of people that post here are probably in the top 10% of the country, in that most partake in some sort of strength training and take an active interest in it. There is, however, a huge demographic in this country that simply have pretty poor movement quality and an extremely low level of conditioning.

Sometimes the warm-up I use for one client will be the basis for the entire session for the next person so all this really depends.

Getting most people through the gym door is hard enough, and consistency is key for pretty much every goal. I'm sure it'll make obvious reading but any programme's success is built on consistency and having each session build on the previous.

I am getting to some sort of a point I think...I have a standard template (not far removed from some already posted), but those movements have re-gressions and progressions to suit the individual.

When planning within that I tend to 'try' to make the training hard enough to get results, but not so hard they won't want to come back to the gym...which sometimes means bending those rules.

As another aside to all that, you can also give 2 people the exact same programme on paper, but what they do inside the gym may be pretty far removed.

Will Heffernan · 06-05-2013 04:11AM

cmyk wrote: »

I think everyone should be seeing certain recurring themes and commonalities throughout the thread.

I think the main element of a program needs to be...start with the 'result' and work your way back to the beginning from there.

I am not anti 'Starting Strength' and the only reason I use it is it is one of the many blanket responses people give here no matter what anyone posts as a starting point...i.e I am a fat old male who's been messing around in the gym for a while...what should I do...answer...try starting strength,

I am a skinny young guy and I want to get jakt...what should I do....answer...try starting strength.

Now...that could be the right answer and both these individuals could scrap what they've been doing....start the program and tip away with it....they could get better quickly...if the both eat 'appropriately' for their goals...in one case to get leaner and the other to gain muscle and they stick to the program they could get the desired results. Would it be the fastest way to improve? Would it be the best way to improve? Would it be the easiest program for them to stick to? What are the chances of them getting injured? You have to take all this into account. One of the biggest problems with the advice given here in general is that people do the following calculation in their head...'this worked for me = this will work for everyone' and that is not the case. People base their advice on a sample size of 1. I like crossfit and I got in shape therefore crossfit will get you in shape. I like powerlifting and I got in shape therefore powerlifting will get you in shape. I like bodybuilding and I got in shape therefore bodybuilding will get you in shape. The maths doesn't work this way. There is no PERFECT program there is only the perfect program for you and even then it won't be perfect...it can always be improved...and problems can always be corrected. The issue with programming is that the human body is adaptive by nature...it adapts and to continue to get it to adapt you need to alter the stimulus in some way...this could be as simple as doing an extra set...or doing a set less but doing it heavier...taking less recovery between sets and increasing the density of your training...or taking more recovery and increasing the intensity of each set....on and on it goes. Every program is only 'perfect' for a time and that time is a lot smaller a window than most people realise.

As the vast majority of my clients are weight loss, i'll give a bit of input to this that might be off centre a little bit as there are so many variables in terms of demographic. The majority of people that post here are probably in the top 10% of the country, in that most partake in some sort of strength training and take an active interest in it. There is, however, a huge demographic in this country that simply have pretty poor movement quality and an extremely low level of conditioning.

...and before anyone thinks I am crapping on what cmyk is saying...I'm not...he knows it and hopefully you understand it as well if you are reading this. I am just offering a 'view'.

This is a huge area...I was talking to someone about marketing today...about how being good at marketing is as important as being good at coaching...maybe even more important...and what cmyk has posted here is an illustration of why. It doesn't matter how good a coach anyone is if they don't have people to coach....it doesn't matter how good their information is if no one reads it or sees it. What has a bigger impact on health and fitness....being an awesome coach with 30 elite athletes who get the best coaching or being an average coach with decent information who is good at marketing themselves and writes a book or has a manual or a website that encourages 30,000 people to take up exercise and more importantly to stick at it?

If you are a part of the 'other' 90% of people not the 10% that cmyk mentioned. Do you need the best coach who might happen to be an assh*le that you don't particularly like or do you need a decent coach who is supportive of your needs and who has a great understand of marketing and psychology and who can get you involved in health and fitness and keep you involved to the extent that you make long term lifestyle changes and alterations that will completely change your life?

One coach could be technically better than the other...but what difference does it make?

Sometimes the warm-up I use for one client will be the basis for the entire session for the next person so all this really depends.

Me too...I think I've said before...I've had clients experience DOMS for the mobility and stability work...had a HR monitor on them and have seen average HR's over 165bpm and a calorie burn in excess of 500 calories...this is just from doing a mobility and stability circuit. What do you think would be more beneficial...them doing 'this' or jogging? What is a better use of the clients time?

Getting most people through the gym door is hard enough, and consistency is key for pretty much every goal. I'm sure it'll make obvious reading but any programme's success is built on consistency and having each session build on the previous.

This is a 'perfect' program...the one that keeps you motivated enough to do the next session.

I am getting to some sort of a point I think...I have a standard template (not far removed from some already posted), but those movements have re-gressions and progressions to suit the individual.

Sounds pretty good to me.

When planning within that I tend to 'try' to make the training hard enough to get results, but not so hard they won't want to come back to the gym...which sometimes means bending those rules.

Again...it doesn't matter how good the program is if no one is doing it.

As another aside to all that, you can also give 2 people the exact same programme on paper, but what they do inside the gym may be pretty far removed.

I've had 100's of people doing the 'same' program and every single one of them doing it differently.

p.s: I've just realised that reading this that some people might think that I am either 100% agree with cmyk or 100% disagreeing with him or agreeing and disagreeing simultaneously...that or that I am talking to him like he's a genius or a moron. I am not doing any of the above...I am just talking and if you are reading this...I am just rambling to YOU...it's just a conversation...I am not making any point of anything but if people talk about training and it's interesting I'll respond and you can feel free to agree, disagree or just ignore it...any of those options is fine.

If something doesn't make sense...ask...and I will clarify. I am always trying to write as fast as I can and shorthand as much as possible but am also happy to expand or clarify.

cmyk · 06-05-2013 07:35PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I am not anti 'Starting Strength' and the only reason I use it is it is one of the many blanket responses people give here no matter what anyone posts as a starting point...i.e I am a fat old male who's been messing around in the gym for a while...what should I do...answer...try starting strength

I've had a few people from this very board come to me having done starting strength...or at least that's what they thought they were doing. What they were actually doing was quarter squatting and some sort of squat/deadlift hybrid that was potentially going to cause more problems further down the line...so we can probably throw half decent technique into the mix for a 'perfect programme'.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

There is no PERFECT program there is only the perfect program for you and even then it won't be perfect...it can always be improved...and problems can always be corrected. The issue with programming is that the human body is adaptive by nature...it adapts and to continue to get it to adapt you need to alter the stimulus in some way...this could be as simple as doing an extra set...or doing a set less but doing it heavier...taking less recovery between sets and increasing the density of your training...or taking more recovery and increasing the intensity of each set....on and on it goes. Every program is only 'perfect' for a time and that time is a lot smaller a window than most people realise.

I think that's a pretty good answer, I think there might be a lot of people here waiting for the 'perfect routine' to hop straight into, a little like those who want the perfect nutrition plan. I think you could easily read the first part of the paragraph above and substitute the word 'nutrition' in place of 'program'.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

This is a huge area...I was talking to someone about marketing today...about how being good at marketing is as important as being good at coaching...maybe even more important...and what cmyk has posted here is an illustration of why. It doesn't matter how good a coach anyone is if they don't have people to coach....it doesn't matter how good their information is if no one reads it or sees it. What has a bigger impact on health and fitness....being an awesome coach with 30 elite athletes who get the best coaching or being an average coach with decent information who is good at marketing themselves and writes a book or has a manual or a website that encourages 30,000 people to take up exercise and more importantly to stick at it?

I'm torn on this one to be honest, coming originally from a marketing background I'm pretty poor at it. Everyday you see new products, or even worse, the exact same product re-branded and sold on, so part of me sees what you're saying and the other part of me sees people simply just trying to make more money...I'm ok with that too, I'd also like to make more money, but I just question some of the motivations behind some of them.

To the general public its hard to differentiate good products from bad, just like forum posts, and why people seem to just spin their wheels. Then you've magazines with contradictory articles every issue and/or product advert-orials.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

This is a 'perfect' program...the one that keeps you motivated enough to do the next session.

Excellent, thread closed?

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I've just realised that reading this that some people might think that I am either 100% agree with cmyk or 100% disagreeing with him or agreeing and disagreeing simultaneously

I'll run with agreeing.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

...that or that I am talking to him like he's a genius or a moron.

I'll run with genius.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I am not doing any of the above

Sh1t.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

If something doesn't make sense...ask...and I will clarify. I am always trying to write as fast as I can and shorthand as much as possible but am also happy to expand or clarify.

Would it help to summise, with bullet points some of the pertinent points so far and insert them into the end of the first post in case there are people who don't feel like reading every page...of which I'm sure there'll be plenty.

deadlybuzzman · 06-05-2013 08:43PM

In reference to the post about the ratio of pushing to pulling exercises in terms of total volume of work done, is there a certain preferable ratio of actual strength also?
Eg If you're always benching in the 90% range for 5 or so reps (all these numbers are just examples) would it really matter if your pulling exercises in the same plane of movement were almost always done in the 10-15 rep range?

Will Heffernan · 06-05-2013 11:26PM

cmyk wrote: »

I've had a few people from this very board come to me having done starting strength...or at least that's what they thought they were doing. What they were actually doing was quarter squatting and some sort of squat/deadlift hybrid that was potentially going to cause more problems further down the line...so we can probably throw half decent technique into the mix for a 'perfect programme'.

Let's over reach and say that good technique is a must for a perfect program.

I think that's a pretty good answer, I think there might be a lot of people here waiting for the 'perfect routine' to hop straight into, a little like those who want the perfect nutrition plan. I think you could easily read the first part of the paragraph above and substitute the word 'nutrition' in place of 'program'.

Agreed. I've had an online client who have paid me for consultations and advice over a 4 month period who actually did nothing...I am giving you the short version of the story but what essentially happen is that he got his program, sent me questions, I sent him answers and that continued for 4 months....he wanted to make sure his program was PERFECT before he did anything....so while he was awaiting perfection he did absolutely no training.

I'm torn on this one to be honest, coming originally from a marketing background I'm pretty poor at it. Everyday you see new products, or even worse, the exact same product re-branded and sold on, so part of me sees what you're saying and the other part of me sees people simply just trying to make more money...I'm ok with that too, I'd also like to make more money, but I just question some of the motivations behind some of them.

To the general public its hard to differentiate good products from bad, just like forum posts, and why people seem to just spin their wheels. Then you've magazines with contradictory articles every issue and/or product advert-orials.

Even more reason why good trainers need to do good marketing and sales work. Even if it makes you feel dirty and unwholesome

Would it help to summise, with bullet points some of the pertinent points so far and insert them into the end of the first post in case there are people who don't feel like reading every page...of which I'm sure there'll be plenty.

Someone should do that and then I will gather them all up and stick them in the first post as you suggested.

Will Heffernan · 06-05-2013 11:44PM

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

In reference to the post about the ratio of pushing to pulling exercises in terms of total volume of work done, is there a certain preferable ratio of actual strength also?

Yes, and I've written a lot about that in the past.

Eg If you're always benching in the 90% range for 5 or so reps (all these numbers are just examples) would it really matter if your pulling exercises in the same plane of movement were almost always done in the 10-15 rep range?

No, I think it is more important to have some consideration of actual total volume.

The Perfect Program

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