The Perfect Program

Will Heffernan

I've a friend who is a strength and conditioning coach and fitness writer/aspiring fitness guru that had told me that a mate of his who is a college athlete was paid by another fitness guru to 'blob out' for before and after photos.

Only the 'after' photos were taken first then the athlete got as fat a he could over the following 8 weeks at which time the 'before' photos were taken.

This is the absolute bullish*t the fitness and nutrition industry is built on. Any time you see before and after photos that should set off alarm bells...especially when used in sales and marketing.

Without racing off to the google machine try some of the following:

1. Count in your own head how many international fitness guru's you can name? Then count how many international coaches of Olympians you know?

2. What about Ireland? How many coaches of Irish Olympians can you name? What about 'personal trainers'?

3. How many products can you think of that have been produced by coaches that have produced Olympians? How many products can you think of that are marketed by personal trainers that have made a few fat people less fat.

It is sad...every time I see a personal trainer post before and after photos of clients....all I think of is....'Where's the rest of the photos?'. Show me the before and after photos of ALL your clients. If you are promising results in 21 days, 8 weeks, 12 weeks and you are marketing these programs....show me ALL you clients photos. It's a complete joke.

Alf Veedersane

Furious Pete did a before-and-after thing in the space of five hours

runawaybishop

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Furious Pete did a before-and-after thing in the space of five hours

1 hour before and after

Hanley

Will Heffernan wrote: »

It is sad...every time I see a personal trainer post before and after photos of clients....all I think of is....'Where's the rest of the photos?'. Show me the before and after photos of ALL your clients. If you are promising results in 21 days, 8 weeks, 12 weeks and you are marketing these programs....show me ALL you clients photos. It's a complete joke.

Bit facetious. If a program can deliver results, it can deliver results.

Whether it does or not depends on the 160+ hours in the week when a client ISN'T in the gym.

Showing the before/after pics of people who weren't as successful just shows people can **** things up on themselves and doesn't say a whole heap about the quality of training.

A better test would be a before/after photo, and then the same photo of the same person 6 months later.

Will Heffernan

Hanley wrote: »

Bit facetious.

I don't think so. If you aren't willing to admit to your failures as a trainer/coach then I don't think you should be taking all the credit for the successes.

If a program can deliver results, it can deliver results.

Well as has been shown in the few posts above here....doing nothing at all 'looks' like it delivers outstanding results.

Whether it does or not depends on the 160+ hours in the week when a client ISN'T in the gym.

Exactly....so what is the trainer/coach taking credit for then?

Showing the before/after pics of people who weren't as successful just shows people can **** things up on themselves and doesn't say a whole heap about the quality of training.

Exactly my point...putting up the individuals DNA sequence would probably be more honest.

A better test would be a before/after photo, and then the same photo of the same person 6 months later.

I just think it is completely bogus way of marketing. I also think that the people who do it know that it is completely bogus as well and just justify it to themselves anyway they can.

Will Heffernan

Personally...I think it's more acceptable for a nutritionist to put up before and after photos. I see people all the time here posting along the lines of...'it's 90% diet and 10% training' and 'you can't out train a bad diet' etc etc and I happen to agree with that generalisation. Diet/nutrition is way more important with regards body composition so unless people are eating all their food in the gym or your home studio or at your bootcamp in the park then I think posting before and after pics as some sort of an example of a particular training program is just a scam.

If you are a trainer/coach....then post performance videos. Show your client/athlete going from doing zero to doing lots...from not doing any pull ups to doing lots for example...that's down to the trainer/coach, their program, their coaching and what they could get out of the client/athlete in the gym. As you pointed out...the trainer/coach actually has bugger all to do with what the client is doing in the 160+ hours that they are not in the gym.

Will Heffernan

I do know 'why' coaches/trainers do it...all I am saying is that I think that it is disingenuous and anyone that is a decent and knowledgable coach/trainer knows that it's disingenuous as well.

I agree with your 'A better test would be a before/after photo, and then the same photo of the same person 6 months later.' comment even though it's taken me 30 minutes or so to understand what you meant.

Personally I'd be waaaay happier with that...here's the person 'before' they started with me and here they are 'after' x weeks and here they are every x weeks after that.

I know that it's not an ideal world and selling fitness is just as dodgy as selling pretty much anything else...like selling white bread for instance. That aside I don't think it is a big ask to start with some ideals and standards and try to live up to them rather than to live down to everyone else's.

Sangre

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I do know 'why' coaches/trainers do it...all I am saying is that I think that it is disingenuous and anyone that is a decent and knowledgable coach/trainer knows that it's disingenuous as well.

How else does a knowledge coach/trainer promote his 'brand' then? Does one just rely on past results and/or word of mouth? You could be broke by time you build a business then.

While I agree fully that these promotions don't give the full picture of a trainer, surely part of the logic of them is that its very difficult for a non-professional to spot a knowledge coach and these promotions give a quick and easy point of reference/success(even if it is only a 12 week before and after)?

diegowhite

Will Heffernan wrote: »

If you are a trainer/coach....then post performance videos. Show your client/athlete going from doing zero to doing lots...from not doing any pull ups to doing lots for example...that's down to the trainer/coach, their program, their coaching and what they could get out of the client/athlete in the gym. As you pointed out...the trainer/coach actually has bugger all to do with what the client is doing in the 160+ hours that they are not in the gym.

I like that idea - noted.

Will Heffernan

Firstly...LOL.

I am still laughing writing this response...not laughing at you but the irony of asking me about being commercially successful as a trainer.

The being successful as a coach bit I have down pat...the bit where you convince a person/organisation to pay you to coach athletes that they pay I can do.

Being commercially successful at getting individuals to pay me to coach them I am not successful at. I gave a presentation the other day that included my little anecdote to explain how little I understand fitness clients and I will write it in brief here only because I use it in lots of presentations I do and it is probably the best lesson I learned about sales and marketing with regard to the fitness industry.

In short...when we started IP it cost 79 euros a month...we got to the stage when we had just over 100 members and I got sick of giving people 1 euro in change every month. I wanted to put the price up to 80 euros...my argument was that everyone knows that 79 euros and 80 euros is the same thing etc etc. Barry and Dan were both against it...basically their point amongst others was that it did matter....anyway....as I said...this is the short version...the price went up to 80 euro and the month we did we lost 13 members...we basically lost a significant amount of our membership over 1 euro.

I didn't understand it then and I still don't understand it now.

I could write a book about what not to do commercially in the fitness industry and then write another book about how to be successful in professional and elite sport....one I get and one I don't.

Anyway...I've stopped laughing now and on with your points.

Sangre wrote: »

How else does a knowledge coach/trainer promote his 'brand' then?

I have no idea. That said...I know what I'd like to see. 1. I'd like to see their 'philosophy'. 2. I would like to see the results of their clients...personally I think it is more impressive when I see a girl go from doing no pull ups to doing a few or to see an older/novice client doing a body weight squat/deadlift with decent form. I prefer this to seeing some jakt guy going from deadlifting improving their deadlift from 1.98xBW to 2.09xBW...no matter how impressive the 200+kg deadlift is.

Does one just rely on past results and/or word of mouth? You could be broke by time you build a business then.

Tell me about it

While I agree fully that these promotions don't give the full picture of a trainer, surely part of the logic of them is that its very difficult for a non-professional to spot a knowledge coach and these promotions give a quick and easy point of reference/success(even if it is only a 12 week before and after)?

As I said...I know 'why' they do it...I am just saying that I don't like it is all.

Sangre

I can't say I'm surprised at all by your experience.

I'm also a professional who provides advice for money (although within an organisation so I'm not tasked with shaking trees personally). On the face of it, a lay person has no idea if my advice is better than that of a competitor and therefore we primarily judged both on our 'soft skills' e.g. clarity, presentation and personal skills as well as our ability to market ourselves.

On top of that price is also a significant factor. A lay person who can't discern between a good product and a great product will often choose the cheaper option (unless he correlates price with quality!).

However, every person in our industry can tell you exactly who the best are in their area (much like you experience with other fitness professionals).

Its both frustrating and interesting. Being the best isn't good enough, you have to also convince people you're the best.

Henry9

Sangre wrote: »

How else does a knowledge coach/trainer promote his 'brand' then? Does one just rely on past results and/or word of mouth? You could be broke by time you build a business then

Easy, just start posting all over facebook and twitter about how awesome your 'clients' are and how proud you are of them, some people will recognise this as a thinly veiled pat on the back for yourself, but a lot won't.

Post vacuous inspirational quotes, and pictures of some lad with no legs lifting a kettlebell. This identifies you as being aligned with them and allows you to fingerpoint at everyone else for being weak.

Never eat another meal without first posting a picture of it on the internet.

Post passive aggressive messages about 'some people' and what they think, or how they train, or what they're saying about you behind your back.

Constantly bang on about how many hours you work, but that you wouldn't change a thing #bestjobintheworld.

Just generally become a self absorbed, self promoting, narcissistic arsehole.

The worst thing that ever happened to 'fitness' or what ever was when it became a branch of the self help industry. What CF realised better than anybody else was that people want validation and endless back patting.
All you are seeing now is the logical extension of that philosophy.

Will Heffernan

Henry9 wrote: »

Easy, just start posting all over facebook and twitter about how awesome your 'clients' are and how proud you are of them, some people will recognise this as a thinly veiled pat on the back for yourself, but a lot won't.

Post vacuous inspirational quotes, and pictures of some lad with no legs lifting a kettlebell. This identifies you as being aligned with them and allows you to fingerpoint at everyone else for being weak.

Never eat another meal without first posting a picture of it on the internet.

Post passive aggressive messages about 'some people' and what they think, or how they train, or what they're saying about you behind your back.

Constantly bang on about how many hours you work, but that you wouldn't change a thing #bestjobintheworld.

Just generally become a self absorbed, self promoting, narcissistic arsehole.

The worst thing that ever happened to 'fitness' or what ever was when it became a branch of the self help industry. What CF realised better than anybody else was that people want validation and endless back patting.
All you are seeing now is the logical extension of that philosophy.

I was trying to think if there was anything you missed that should of been on that list....but there was actually one or two items on that list that I didn't even think of.

I wish I could 'thank' this more as I will be smiling to myself about it all day

workoutadvice

Hi long time lurker, there seems to be some good advice by knowledgeable dudes knocking about here so i was wondering could some one point me in the right direction with my program, apologies if this isn't correct place to post this.

goal: get stronger / look better naked

the gym im in has Olympic bars but no squat rack, so i can deadlift and bench but not squat not with a bar anyway. im keeping rep range for main excercises in 3 x 6 range for strength and bit of size, and assistance ones 3x10. coming back to lifting after a break due to laziness but ive done all major lifts before with proper technique.


Warm up all days focusing on mobility and working up to working weights.
Monday :
Deadlift 3x6
RDL 3x10
Lunges walking 3x12

Core
( weight sit ups / revers crunches and the like)

wednesday:
Bench Press 3 x 6
chin ups 3 x 6
dips parallel bars 3 x max
cable tri press downs 3 x 10
Db bi curls 3 x 10

friday:
D.B. goblet squats? (only decent squat variation i can think of there is a leg press but presume id be better off without that) 3 x 6 although im afraid DBs dont go heavy enough to benifit off 6 reps
D.B. clean and press 3 x 6
inverted row 3 x max

core

Theres definitely stuff missing missplaced, if any one could point me in right direction it would be swell

TheZ

Will's posts in this forum are top class internetting.

kevpants

Henry9 wrote: »

Easy, just start posting all over facebook and twitter about how awesome your 'clients' are and how proud you are of them, some people will recognise this as a thinly veiled pat on the back for yourself, but a lot won't.

Post vacuous inspirational quotes, and pictures of some lad with no legs lifting a kettlebell. This identifies you as being aligned with them and allows you to fingerpoint at everyone else for being weak.

Never eat another meal without first posting a picture of it on the internet.

Post passive aggressive messages about 'some people' and what they think, or how they train, or what they're saying about you behind your back.

Constantly bang on about how many hours you work, but that you wouldn't change a thing #bestjobintheworld.

Just generally become a self absorbed, self promoting, narcissistic arsehole.

The worst thing that ever happened to 'fitness' or what ever was when it became a branch of the self help industry. What CF realised better than anybody else was that people want validation and endless back patting.
All you are seeing now is the logical extension of that philosophy.

I saw an interview with Nicolas Cage a few weeks ago where he expressed surprise that people didn't think he was "in on the joke". I think it's important to ask whether these trainers aren't also "in on the joke".

It's marketing. This.

If you've ever been exposed to what it takes to do "marketing" you'd move to a small cabin in some woodland and live off the land, so shocked would you be at the evil that permeates every facet of our daily lives.

DID YOU KNOW... Coke and Pepsi are the same. They taste the same. They've proven it. Same molecules. Do you know why they taste different TO YOU. Marketing. Seriously.

Fitness is ripe to be sucked into the world of marketing, people's body image is a massive chink in so many people's armour. You can completely take advantage of that and make money by basically being a massive metophorical mother's teat to comfort them in their insecure modern lives.

Will Heffernan

workoutadvice wrote: »

Hi long time lurker, there seems to be some good advice by knowledgeable dudes knocking about here so i was wondering could some one point me in the right direction with my program, apologies if this isn't correct place to post this.

goal: get stronger / look better naked

the gym im in has Olympic bars but no squat rack, so i can deadlift and bench but not squat not with a bar anyway. im keeping rep range for main excercises in 3 x 6 range for strength and bit of size, and assistance ones 3x10. coming back to lifting after a break due to laziness but ive done all major lifts before with proper technique.

Warm up all days focusing on mobility and working up to working weights.
Monday :
Deadlift 3x6
RDL 3x10
Lunges walking 3x12

Core
( weight sit ups / revers crunches and the like)

wednesday:
Bench Press 3 x 6
chin ups 3 x 6
dips parallel bars 3 x max
cable tri press downs 3 x 10
Db bi curls 3 x 10

friday:
D.B. goblet squats? (only decent squat variation i can think of there is a leg press but presume id be better off without that) 3 x 6 although im afraid DBs dont go heavy enough to benifit off 6 reps
D.B. clean and press 3 x 6
inverted row 3 x max

core

Theres definitely stuff missing missplaced, if any one could point me in right direction it would be swell

1. Hi...it's good that you moved from lurking to posting...both or either are fine but I always think it better to be part of the problem and part of the solution.

2. I am going to tell you what I think...the thing that you have to keep in mind that there isn't one solution...there isn't two solutions but just off the top of my head I think I could come up with enough training variables to keep you busy for the rest of your life. You could Oly lift....and get in great nick...you could take a bodybuilding focus....and achieve your goals....you could circuit train.....and on and on I could go.

3. Personally...with novice trainers I pretty much always lean towards a full body program...I do this because it increases the frequency of training exposure to each muscle group and it allows more total work to get done every week by spreading out that individual muscle group fatigue.

4. Also I think no matter what your training age...you should get some exposure to all the rep ranges...which I think I've crapped on about here in detail previously but in short they are a few, some or lots. A few (1-5), some (8-12) and lots (15+).

5. So based on what you have written here and the program you've designed for yourself what I'd do with regard tweaking what you've outlined is as follows:

a) We will assume that you warm up well.
b) We will also assume that you are undertaking a balanced and properly structured core/trunk training program.

Monday :
Deadlift 6x3
Lunges walking 3x12
Bench Press 3 x 6
DB Biceps Curls 3 x 12

Wednesday:
DB Goblet Squats 3x6
RDL 3x12
Chin Ups 3 x 6
Cable Tricep Press Downs 3 x 12

Friday:
D.B. clean and press 3 x 6
Dips Parallel Bars 3 x max
Inverted Row 3 x max

So there is basically the same constituent components of your program in a properly thought out and purposefully structured layout.

Duck's hoop

kevpants wrote: »

DID YOU KNOW... Coke and Pepsi are the same. They taste the same. They've proven it. Same molecules. Do you know why they taste different TO YOU. Marketing. Seriously.

No chance. Heineken and Carlsberg are interchangable though.

But agreed on the rest.

Hanley

Duck's hoop wrote: »

No chance. Heineken and Carlsberg are interchangable though.

But agreed on the rest.

I know there was a test where they put coke in a Pepsi can and vice versa and had ppl do taste tests, and despite previous assertions to whic they preferred, they chose the CAN/brand they preferred and not the taste.

Person says the prefer coke - both in separate glasses, coke wins. Pepsi on a coke can and coke in a Pepsi can... Pepsi in coke can wins.

Hanley

Most of what you see from PT's is more advertising than marketing anyway.

Duck's hoop

Hanley wrote: »

I know there was a test where they put coke in a Pepsi can and vice versa and had ppl do taste tests, and despite previous assertions to whic they preferred, they chose the CAN/brand they preferred and not the taste.

Person says the prefer coke - both in separate glasses, coke wins. Pepsi on a coke can and coke in a Pepsi can... Pepsi in coke can wins.

I'm going to try this today. Separate unmarked vessels. I'm sure there's a difference! Marketing notwithstanding.

workoutadvice

Will Heffernan wrote: »

a) We will assume that you warm up well.
b) We will also assume that you are undertaking a balanced and properly structured core/trunk training program.

Monday :
Deadlift 6x3
.

Firstly thanks for the advice im looking forward to getting stuck into the programe,
Just wondering is that a typo or do you recommend doing 6 sets of 3 on the deadlifts, im happy to go with it if thats case just wana be sure.

Will Heffernan

workoutadvice wrote: »

Firstly thanks for the advice im looking forward to getting stuck into the programe,

No problem. I am happy to help as are plenty of people here.

Just wondering is that a typo or do you recommend doing 6 sets of 3 on the deadlifts, im happy to go with it if thats case just wana be sure.

1) I am glad you actually read what I wrote.
2) I just don't like higher rep deadlifts. Now I will preface that by saying that...a) it's a bit rich of me since I program 5 reps quite often and you could argue...what's the difference between 5 and 6 and I would struggle to argue the point BUT I just think 6 is too much...I am actually not that fond of 5's even and I'd only use that in novices...personally I think the best returns will be found in the 1 to 3 range.

Will Heffernan

workoutadvice wrote: »

Firstly thanks for the advice im looking forward to getting stuck into the programe,
Just wondering is that a typo or do you recommend doing 6 sets of 3 on the deadlifts, im happy to go with it if thats case just wana be sure.

Just FYI there's another thread on boards...I'm sure you can find it....that is a program critique thread and you might want to post your new program there for comment and advice.

Duck's hoop

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I am actually not that fond of 5's even and I'd only use that in novices...personally I think the best returns will be found in the 1 to 3 range.

This is just for DL?

Brian?

Duck's hoop wrote: »

This is just for DL?

I don't know what Will's answer will be. But I've found sets of 3 or less work better for deadlift and power cleans.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

I don't know what Will's answer will be. But I've found sets of 3 or less work better for deadlift and power cleans.

Does that apply even for lower weights? I'm building back up my DLs 'cause working out on my own,I found I slacked on my form and I'd started to form bad habits. So at 68kg, my PR is 140kg/4 but now i'm going to go back to 100kg because I've been missing lifts and I've let form slip. So should I still just do sets of no more than 3-5?

Will Heffernan

Duck's hoop wrote: »

This is just for DL?

In this case...I am talking specifically about the deadlift.

There are heaps and heaps of things we could discuss regarding deadlifting...reps and sets is probably the least important of these.

Off the top of my head...the more important things to consider are things like...technique as when people say deadlifting lots of people mean very different things...is it stiff legged, clean style, sumo, romanian? Then what sort of grip are they using? What about the style of lifting? You see different styles with regard of speed of movement for example...are you powering through the first or second pull or is your only concern to lock the weight out at the top? What are you using the deadlift for in your program...I could write a series of articles about the 'use' of the deadlift alone. What you are using the deadlift for would tend to influence my set and in particular my rep scheme. The majority of novice lifters deadlift technique is brutal and becomes progressively more brutal with each rep because of the fact that the starting position of the deadlift is so important and it becomes progressively more difficult to ensure the start position is correct as you work through your 'reps'. This is usually exaggerated in novice lifters because they tend to pretty much just drop the bar after reaching the top of each rep. So what do you think the chances are of dropping the bar into the perfect starting position for the next rep? Then you need to consider the rep style...are you a touch and go lifter, are you a drop and bounce lifter, are you a controlled repper...AND then you can start talking about the physiological and neuro physiological adaptations and effects of the combinations and or lack there of of all of the above.

You asked a simple question so the simple answer is yes. So you can just disregard everything I said above