The Perfect Program

Will Heffernan

I am going to come back and edit this...as it develops.

Firstly, what are the majority of people looking for?

You have fatties looking to get stronger and or bigger.
You have fatties looking to get fit.
You have fatties looking to just look good nekid.
You have twigs looking to get stronger and or bigger.
You have twigs looking to get fit.
You have twigs looking to just look good nekid.

Does that cover it?

Lets build some training templates and rules for all of these? If nothing else it will give us something cool to argue about for hours on end.

What do we need to do to warm up?
What exercises?
Set and rep schemes?
Training frequency?
Do we need Oly lifting?
What does it take to build the perfect program?

Pick a program and lay it out...then the spoilers can start picking holes in it, the navel gazers can make sure we are using the right terminology, the google warriors can do their searches and see if anyone is ripping anyone else off...I like to be a builder rather than a destroyer so I will start laying stuff out and people can question it all they like...same for all...be prepared to defend anything you put down or throw out here...we can even hold little mini votes to decide what path the perfect program is going down.

So give us what you got!

the drifter

5/3/1 is a load fo sh*te there i said it....

Will Heffernan

the drifter wrote: »

5/3/1 is a load fo sh*te there i said it....

I'm glad you got that off your chest.

Lets not label stuff though...if people think the best way to develop x, y or z is to Squat, Deadlit, Bench and Military Press and do consecutive weeks of 5, 3 then 1 then unload then lay it out like that.

You follow.

People don't have to post their 'masterpiece'...it can be a statement or a paragraph.

Hanley

I like this.

I think the majority of people just want to look better naked.

My answers...

WARM UP/MOBILITY

The warm up should focus on hip and shoulder mobility and be dynamic in nature as they seem to be the areas most people have trouble with. I'd do some form of upper and lower body foam rolling prior to this. So say that's 10 minutes of work...

Roll - IT Band, quads, calves, lats, upper back, work thoracic extension on the roller
Mobility - over and under hurdle drills, front to back and side to side, maybe some glute activation stuff too

LIFTING

The main body of actual lifting work would be done to increase squat, bench, deadlift, press and pull up strength. Assuming a 3x a week training frequency (for the average Joe, tho I'd like to see more)...

Have one assistance lift designed to increase the main lift. So say SLDL for deadlifts, pressing for bench, and I dunno... more squatting for squats.

Add in two more exercises for vanity purposes cos people are gonna want to do them anyway and it's better to rx them than leave it up to themselves.

"Bench" day becomes:
bench
press
pull ups
close grip bench
upper back of some sort
gunzzzz

"Deadlift" day becomes:
deadlifts
SLDL
another hamstring exercise, maybe unilateral
core work

"Squat" day becomes:
squat - lower reps
squat - higher reps
unilateral leg work
core work

The main lift of the day's done with higher intensity than the assistance and supplementary/vanity lifts.

CONDITIONING

This is probably gonna be an individual thing. The intensity/RPE will be decided on by the effort put into the lifting and general state of the trainee. Since they're training 3x a week, one could be in the short time range (3-5 minutes of work), one in mid rang (10-12 minutes) and one LIT session of 20-30+ minutes of sustained workload.

The specifics of everything will change as the trainee adapts to the system, so the supplementary and assitance stuff won't stay the same over the course of a year, the mobility and warm up will change as weak points/potential issues become apparent and the conditioning work has to be analysed to gauge how well they're recovery.

Hanley

As for "needing" oly lifting - for the vast majority of people, no.

It's complicated to learn and become proficient at, it takes a long time to actually get good enough to move significant weight, for a weak person it's easier to improve power output by getting them stronger everywhere - That is to say, it might take 6 months to get a newb up to cleaning and jerking 80kg, but if you can increase their deadlifting to 120-140kg in that period then the strength developed there is probably gonna be more "functional" in an athletic sense?

dartstothesea

I'm not really experienced enough to be recommending anything in terms of a program but just wanted to ask; how come you wouldn't have someone training 3x a week squatting more than once in the week, Hanley? Would moving the Press to a non-Bench day not work better for whatever reasons? Just curious, 'cause for example I saw next to no improvement in my press when pressing on the same day as benching.

I guess I'm just wondering why you'd pick a body-part focussed day versus a full-body day type of program.

Hanley

dartstothesea wrote: »

I'm not really experienced enough to be recommending anything in terms of a program but just wanted to ask; how come you wouldn't have someone training 3x a week squatting more than once in the week, Hanley? Would moving the Press to a non-Bench day not work better for whatever reasons? Just curious, 'cause for example I saw next to no improvement in my press when pressing on the same day as benching.

I guess I'm just wondering why you'd pick a body-part focussed day versus a full-body day type of program.

In a perfect world I'd like to see everyone squatting multiple times per week.

In the real world tho most people aren't prepared to deal with the effort that it requires. As I said in my post, what I've outlined is for the average guy trying to look better naked.

Keep him healthy by doing the mobility stuff.
Get him strong by using a main lift and accessory.
Get him "in shape" with cardio/conditioning.

The conditioning workouts could be CF style and include big lifts like thrusters, pull ups etc which are gonna have an effect on strength levels to an extent a well.

As for pressing and benching together, given a 3 day a week training assumption, where would you move it to? I'd make sure the conditioning work on one of the days is fairly shoulder intensive to compensate for the lack of focus on it in the main body of work. Pressing and benching can be alternated in the order in which they're done on a monthly basis.

d'Oracle

I can see this thread being very useful indeed.

Pontificatus

Will Heffernan wrote: »

You have fatties looking to get stronger and or bigger.
You have fatties looking to get fit.
You have fatties looking to just look good nekid.
You have twigs looking to get stronger and or bigger.
You have twigs looking to get fit.
You have twigs looking to just look good nekid.

You have fatties/twigs trying to gain lean muscle and lose fat. Perhaps you can add something about a perfect cyle of gains/losses to achieve body recomposition. 6 weeks lift, 3 weeks cut pyramid type of thing.

Also, regardless of fattiness/twigginess i think you need to mention something about testing before starting said program and at what intervals to re-test. Fat and Fitness test it can be called.

Will Heffernan

I think what I'll do is to gather it all together every couple of pages and almost start it all over again. Put some order on it and put it in a format so we can have proper arguments/discussions about it.

Will Heffernan

Pontificatus wrote: »

You have fatties/twigs trying to gain lean muscle and lose fat. Perhaps you can add something about a perfect cyle of gains/losses to achieve body recomposition. 6 weeks lift, 3 weeks cut pyramid type of thing.

Don't tell me...just state that...if you think that's the way to go...throw it out there.

*I do agree with it...so put it out there with conviction and I will give you a 'thank'.

Also, regardless of fattiness/twigginess i think you need to mention something about testing before starting said program and at what intervals to re-test. Fat and Fitness test it can be called.

I agree with that as well...so we'll stick that in as a program principle/guideline also.

xgtdec

ah nuts, ive just kicked off on 2 months of 5x5 with pure cardio on the inbetween days...its gonna be hard not to subscribe to this though!!!

Will Heffernan

xgtdec wrote: »

ah nuts, ive just kicked off on 2 months of 5x5 with pure cardio on the inbetween days...its gonna be hard not to subscribe to this though!!!

That sounds pretty good to me.

rocky

I'll give it a shot at explaining my current program - this should apply to the 'from fattie to looking good nekkid' category.

I see it as the perfect program for me, because it's very easy to follow (training and diet wise) and I think it's optimal, that is I get maximum results from the invested time.

Generally speaking, people in this category need to drop body fat and keep as much muscle as possible. There are a few that think they have too much muskle, don't believe them (rolleye smiley)

Diet - gives about 75% of the success

Purpose: keep muscle, burn fat

My way:
- keep calories at a slight deficit of 500/day - that means 1 pound of fat lost a week. 1000/day calories deficit is a bit much and is prone to lead to strength/muscle loss. Find a happy medium, as long as it's a deficit, the weight will drop.

- keep protein high, recommendation is 1gram per pound bodyweight, I find this is a nice target to aspire to, but don't beat yourself up if you only manage 2grams per kilo bodyweight or 1 gram per pound LBM.

Try and keep the rest of the allocated calories from fat and only a little carbs. This is not for superior weight loss (Studies show that in the long term, low-carb and medium carb diets (varying carb/fat) have the same fat loss results), but for superior diet adherrence - I find hunger is not an issue if I eat less carbs.

- foods: chicken, salmon, cottage cheese, eggs, veggies, some fruit, EVOO, coconut oil.

- TRACK YOUR FOOD - especially when starting out, you need to use www.fitday.com or similar, people are awfully inaccurate when estimating their consumed calories

- do not count the calories burned exercising towards your daily allowance - you'll only tend to overeat.

Variation/improvements: Intermittent fasting

- concentrate all the meals in a 4/8/10 hour window, fast for the rest of the day. I found that not eating in the morning is great for great results.

- allows you eat few larger meals, some people prefer this. Plus, eating 6+ meals a day (and starting in the early morning) triggers hunger pangs very often, the body 'expects' to be eating every 2-3 hours). Plus, IF allows me to eat what would be considered cheat meals, but it's ok as long as you're hitting the calories and the protein requirements - e.g. I have half a pint of Ben and Jerry's. or 100g Tiramisu, once-twice a week.

No, you won't lose muscle eating like this

Other diet options that I don't use too complicated/hard for what I need:

PSMF - fastest way of losing fat, should be done for no more than 2 weeks at a time

Carb/calorie cycling - eat more on workout days, less on rest days.



Exercise regime

Purpose: - convince the body it needs all that muscle, so use the fat stores for energy.

My way: Full body workouts every second day.

Key points:

- Compound movements: Squat, deadlift, Chinups/pullups, (DB)Bench press, rack pulls, OH press

- Hit all body parts in every workout, don't lower weight while dieting, could lower sets/reps for lower volume

Variation: -Full body workout every third/Nth day - as long as you're recovered between workouts, but not too long recovered

- Split upper/lower 2 days, then 1/2 days rest - if the full body workout takes too long



Take measurements - key to seing progress or not and in consequence, a key determinant in being consistent with diet/training.

Scales - in a calorie deficit, weight is going down. Weigh once a week in the same day same time (e.g. Saturday morning after waking up)

BF% - use calipers once a week.

Mirror - some changes are too subtle to be detected, that's why I use the first 2

Using this programme, I went from 103.3kg sometime in May to 88.6kg today. Still some way to go to seeing abs, but I'll keep at it.
My strength has stayed the same or increased most notably on chinups I went from 1 to 9 in last night's workout.

The perfect program is the one that enables you to be consistent at it. After that, it's just a matter of PATIENCE. Sorry, had to capitalise that, lots of people want results yesterday.

Hope this helps someone or other.
Take it apart boys

Lothaar v2

This thread could be pretty cool. Great idea!

Hanley - if we assume that the majority just want to look good naked, be they fat or skinny, I have two questions:
1. How many sets will they be doing overall per exercise, or per workout? I'm trying to gauge how long each workout would take. I have seen so many programmes with up to 40 total sets that must take about 90 mins to complete, which flies in the face of the prevailing wisdom from this forum!
2. If we were to drop the vanity exercises, should they be replaced with MORE of the basic compound lifts? Rather than, say, close-grip bench press... just do another couple of sets of bench press? Or do we just hit the showers early, without bothering with the isolation exercises?

By the way, I'm not trying to find a miracle 20-min a week cure here. Just trying to figure out how to best manage my time. I'm sure this is a common enough issue for the average guy, and should be relevant to the discussion!

Chris89

I disagree with isolation exercises, unless you are training purely for aesthetics or are using them to get a bigger bench, squat or dead.

I think that isolations are a waste of time for someone who is lifting to get better, stronger, faster, for a sport.

Too many lads in tiny canterbury shorts and 6th year holiday tshirts doing bicep curl dropsets to prep for their match against blackrock at the weekend.

Will Heffernan

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

This thread could be pretty cool. Great idea!

I'm full of it..........great ideas that is.

Hanley - if we assume that the majority just want to look good naked, be they fat or skinny, I have two questions:

I always say this...everything we do is basically about sex...fat powerlifters like Hanley just want to look the way they do because that's what attracts other powerbears like themselves.

1. How many sets will they be doing overall per exercise, or per workout? I'm trying to gauge how long each workout would take. I have seen so many programmes with up to 40 total sets that must take about 90 mins to complete, which flies in the face of the prevailing wisdom from this forum!

1. This is what we are going to find out...when we come up with the perfect program...it is something I toss around often...we've athletes here at Informed Performance that do sessions that take 4hrs to complete...and no...I'm not joking. But that's because they have the time...I think personally that you can get what you really need in an hour or less. It'll be an interesting discussion though.
2. What is the prevailing wisdom here on this forum? I mean that seriously...what do you think the prevailing wisdom is?

2. If we were to drop the vanity exercises, should they be replaced with MORE of the basic compound lifts? Rather than, say, close-grip bench press... just do another couple of sets of bench press? Or do we just hit the showers early, without bothering with the isolation exercises?

This is another good point...people always expect me to take a massive dump metaphorically on gunz...I have them in every program...I think the problem is that people don't commit to them properly.

By the way, I'm not trying to find a miracle 20-min a week cure here. Just trying to figure out how to best manage my time. I'm sure this is a common enough issue for the average guy, and should be relevant to the discussion!

If we can find a 20 minute cure we will...apparently that's what happens elsewhere...people go against the grain...ask questions...ignore dogma and make miracles happen

Lothaar v2

Will Heffernan wrote: »

2. What is the prevailing wisdom here on this forum? I mean that seriously...what do you think the prevailing wisdom is?

From what I can gather as a long-time lurker here, workouts should take about 45 minutes. Anything over an hour is too much.

But then I see some of the workouts in the fitness logs, and they seem to go on forever! So, it's confusing.

I'm all for the 20-minute cure. I don't think it's going to happen, though.

omniscient_toad

Chris89 wrote: »

I disagree with isolation exercises, unless you are training purely for aesthetics or are using them to get a bigger bench, squat or dead.

I think that isolations are a waste of time for someone who is lifting to get better, stronger, faster, for a sport.

Too many lads in tiny canterbury shorts and 6th year holiday tshirts doing bicep curl dropsets to prep for their match against blackrock at the weekend.

As much as some people obsess about isolation exercises I think there's a bit of a trendy internet backlash about them. Doing four varieties of bicep curl before anything else is probably not a good idea, spending five minutes doing two or three sets of curls/s.crushers at the end of your workout isn't going to somehow negate everything you've done before them or destroy your ability to recover from the session.

Hanley

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

This thread could be pretty cool. Great idea!

Hanley - if we assume that the majority just want to look good naked, be they fat or skinny, I have two questions:
1. How many sets will they be doing overall per exercise, or per workout? I'm trying to gauge how long each workout would take. I have seen so many programmes with up to 40 total sets that must take about 90 mins to complete, which flies in the face of the prevailing wisdom from this forum!

Say 5-8 including warm ups for the main lift, and 3-5 for assistance and supplementary work.

What's the prevailing wisdom anyway?

2. If we were to drop the vanity exercises, should they be replaced with MORE of the basic compound lifts? Rather than, say, close-grip bench press... just do another couple of sets of bench press? Or do we just hit the showers early, without bothering with the isolation exercises?

I refuse to drop the vanity exercises for two reasons;
1) They can help prevent injury and imbalance
2) People want to do them. I'm talking about the average Joe Soap looking to change their body - they're going to want to do bicep work (say), and won't be able to understand why it's not there. They'll doubt the trainer and his effectiveness and not commit to the program fully. Half the battle is just going balls out on whatever you do. A sub-optimal programme with total commitment's always gonna be more effective than someone who half asses the "perfect" cycle.

Why not hit the showers? Cos if you want to improve a muscle group, you've got to train it. I don't understand how people have become so brainwashed that they believe all you need for biceps is rows and pull ups.

Why not add in more sets of bench instead of cgbp? Movement fatigue. There's only so much of something you can do before you blow your load on it. So you need alternatives that work in a similar fashion, but are slightly different.

Hanley

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

From what I can gather as a long-time lurker here, workouts should take about 45 minutes. Anything over an hour is too much.

But then I see some of the workouts in the fitness logs, and they seem to go on forever! So, it's confusing.

I'm all for the 20-minute cure. I don't think it's going to happen, though.

One of the best ways to gauge it is just to look at the physical appearance of who does what.

This whole anything over an hour and your body eats muscle belief is just bullsh*t. If I do 20 sets and rest for 2 minutes instead of 3 during them, does my body somehow miraculously not eat itself?

By resting longer and working less hard I'm somehow harming my body??

Turbo_diesel

the drifter wrote: »

5/3/1 is a load fo sh*te there i said it....

Why?

Hanley

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

Why?

Because pretty much everyone who's logged their experience here has gotten weaker on it.

Rep PR's go up, maximal strength goes down.

the drifter

Hanley wrote: »

Because pretty much everyone who's logged their experience here has gotten weaker on it.

Rep PR's go up, maximal strength goes down.

this...

its prob a good maintenance program for cutting...or maybe if you were getting some form of unnatural assistance...but thats a whole other discussion..

.

Scuba Ste

Perfect program for me goes along these lines.

2 day split as follows, basically legs/push/pull.

Day 1
Squat
Bench press
Barbell row
Curls
Ab work

Day 2
Deadlift
OH Press
Pull up
Tri extensions
Oblique work

I like it because its simple enough and I think it's fairly balanced.

I'd always do some prehab/activation/mobility work before these. I'd rotate between bi, tri and calves exercises, rotating each day so if you do this workout 3xweek then you do bi one day tri the next and calves the next etc.

Id sometimes superset the upper body exercises depending on time available or circumstances.

Pick apart at will, I'd like to see if other people think there's much wrong with it.

Hanley

the drifter wrote: »

this...

its prob a good maintenance program for cutting...

.

It's really not. Remember how badly my lifting fell apart on it!?

Will Heffernan

Just quickly jotting down bits and pieces while actually doing some work here.

I'm not looking to take anyones program to pieces here. I'll defo put down what I think is good just like everyone else is doing. I can think of lots of different ways to 'get the job' done...if you asked me to ditch what I currently do and do something else completely different I could do that easily actually. I can think of lots and lots of great ways to get results.

Scuba Ste

Hanley wrote: »

The warm up should focus on hip and shoulder mobility and be dynamic in nature as they seem to be the areas most people have trouble with. I'd do some form of upper and lower body foam rolling prior to this. So say that's 10 minutes of work...

Roll - IT Band, quads, calves, lats, upper back, work thoracic extension on the roller
Mobility - over and under hurdle drills, front to back and side to side, maybe some glute activation stuff too

I wouldn't have thought foam rolling pre workout is a good idea, I'd see it as similar to static stretching and relaxing your muscles pre workout which I always thought was bad for performance. I'l happily admit I don't know a lot about foam rolling but mylself I leave it to post workout or just at home whenever the mood takes.

d'Oracle

I like Scuba Steves programme.

But I don't know about the abs/oblique stuff cos I don't know how to do them.
Also I'm not sure why the triceps stuff cos I'm already doing bench and OH Press.

But I may soon be doing something that involves maintaining strength while shifting a bit of fat. I'm not sure that would be ideal for that.

testikle

heres what i do,takes about 45-55 minutes excluding warm up

5- 10 min jog to warm up followed by stretching

day 1 legs,back,core,

squat 5-7 sets,this includes warm up,2 x 8 and 5 x 5
deadlift 5-7 sets,includes warm up,2 x 8 warm up 5 x 5
calf raises 3 x 10
pull- ups(palms facing) 4 x 8
pull ups (hammer curl grip)3 x 8
bent over row 5-7 sets,this includes warm up.usually 6-10 reps.
abs 3 types of 3 x 12

day 2 chest,shoulders ,triceps
barbell bench 5-7 sets,includes wu,6-10 reps
dumbell bench/dumbell fly 4 x 8
dips 4 x 8-10
tricep 4 x 8-10
shoulder press 4 x 8
upright row 4 x 8

Mad busy at work so had to change to this type of programme although i know its a typical split,i think it covers all the bases.I prefer a full body but its hard to reach a happy medium with work and family life while fitting in the gym.

I train 4-5 times a week including sat/sun so i throw in a bit more if i have time.

Any advice or tweaks would be appreciated

Brian?

Great idea for a thread Will, but surely the iprograms are perfection


My input would be:

Lifting days:

Warmup:
Pretty much what the guys at informed performance do, as I've copied it and found it great, plus foam rolling.

Lifting every 2nd day:

Day1:
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Row3x8
Chin or pullup or inverted row 3x8
Stiff leg deadlift 3x8
Lunges 3x8
Calf raise/Tricep pushdown/EZ bar curl triset.
Ab wheel rollouts

Day2:
Deadlift 5x5
Military press 5x5
chin or pullup or inverted row
Glute ham raise 3x8
Incline bench 3x8
Lunges 3x8
Calf raise/Tricep pushdown/EZ bar curl triset.
Weighted crunches

Hiit conditioning/metcons on the in between days.

Hanley

Scuba Ste wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought foam rolling pre workout is a good idea, I'd see it as similar to static stretching and relaxing your muscles pre workout which I always thought was bad for performance. I'l happily admit I don't know a lot about foam rolling but mylself I leave it to post workout or just at home whenever the mood takes.

Does it relax your muscles tho?

I'd have thought reducing any adhesions and knots prior to training would be good? I certainly feel more comfortable and better for it when I do it before training.

I won't even try to get sciencey cos I don't know for sure, but doesn't static stretching effectively reduce the amount of force/resistance that your muscle can output, what mechanism does foam rolling achieve a similar effect by?

I really need to start googling mid-post so I can sound like I know what I'm talking about.

brianthebard

The static stretching thing before training has been overblown, it may cause a very small drop in maximal performance but it doesn't last long and if your muscles are effectively 'sleepy' after stretching (or however you want to describe it) they should be back to normal after a couple of warm up sets.

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

Does it relax your muscles tho?

I'd have thought reducing any adhesions and knots prior to training would be good? I certainly feel more comfortable and better for it when I do it before training.

My thoughts exactly. I noticed a huge difference when I foam roll before squatting.

From wikipedia:

"Myofascial release is a form of soft tissue therapy used to treat somatic dysfunction and accompanying pain and restriction of motion. This is accomplished by relaxing contracted muscles, increasing circulation, increasing venous and lymphatic drainage, and stimulating the stretch reflex of muscles and overlying fascia."

Hanley wrote: »

I won't even try to get sciencey cos I don't know for sure, but doesn't static stretching effectively reduce the amount of force/resistance that your muscle can output, what mechanism does foam rolling achieve a similar effect by?

I really need to start googling mid-post so I can sound like I know what I'm talking about.

I think the drop in performance has been proven to be fairly negligable, if that's how you spell it.

Hanley

brianthebard wrote: »

The static stretching thing before training has been overblown, it may cause a very small drop in maximal performance but it doesn't last long and if your muscles are effectively 'sleepy' after stretching (or however you want to describe it) they should be back to normal after a couple of warm up sets.

Someone throw out some links and info about all this plz!

brianthebard

Hanley wrote: »

Someone throw out some links and info about all this plz!

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/122341.php

Even though they say you shouldn't stretch it states in the article that power output only decreased 2.4-3.4% It might make a difference if you did it right before your third squat max attempt but otherwise it seems excessive to stay away from stretching if you like it and it seems to work for you.

dinorebel

For me the amount of information available is staggering it is working out what works for me that is the tough bit.With that in mind I have decided to go for a well known/researched program(starting strength)and stick with it.

Money Shot

the drifter wrote: »

this...

its prob a good maintenance program for cutting...or maybe if you were getting some form of unnatural assistance...but thats a whole other discussion..

.

I can't see how 5-3-1 would be a good program for a powerlifter, but I wouldn't write it off completely. I think it might be a useful template (if not maybe the perfect program) for a gym goer with limited time, who's not worried about 1rm's, and is just looking to maintain or build some muscle and get stronger.

Will Heffernan

Money Shot wrote: »

I can't see how 5-3-1 would be a good program for a powerlifter, but I wouldn't write it off completely. I think it might be a useful template (if not maybe the perfect program) for a gym goer with limited time, who's not worried about 1rm's, and is just looking to maintain or build some muscle and get stronger.

One of the problems with 5/3/1 is that it attempts to be all things to all people...and no program can do that.

For beginners it probably asks to much of them with regard generating intensity and for more advanced lifters it asks too little...as in it doesn't expose them to enough intensity...they don't get enough 'near max' volume to make strength gains.

Some of the principle of 5/3/1 would definitely be suited to the fattie looking to hold there mass while ditching their body fat.

Heaps of good stuff here in this thread...I'm going to try to pull some of it together later.

podge57

This is geared mostly toward people looking to get bigger and stronger, but since I think you can look good, be fit and get bigger and stronger all at once, this sort of applies to all the categories. I don't see much need for Oly lifts, because if you haven't got a coach, you will spend too much time trying to learn the lifts, and I don't think the benefits would be that significant.

Like others have said, there is no perfect program, and almost everything will work if you give it enough time, but heres my thoughts anyway...

Warm up: just do whatever you need to get warmed up properly for the session you are doing. For me, this usually means working on my hips, hamstrings, lower back and shoulders. I do some of the exercises from this vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK6kghPlyTI&feature=player_embedded), and some band pull-aparts, face pulls etc. Some days it takes 5 mins to warm up, 15-20 on others. I don't see much need for prehab stuff during warmups, although this could just be because I'm young and I've never had any significant injuries or problems.

Exercises: Squat / Deadlift / Bench / Pullups are the basics, and normally one heavy-ish assistance exercise like CGBP, Rows, Lunges, and then 1-2 light assistance exercises.

Frequency: I think that to get bigger and stronger, you should ideally be squatting 3x per week, Benching 2x, Deadlifting 1x, and doing pullups 3-4 times per week, as well as the assistance stuff.

Sets and Reps: For the big 3, 2-5 sets of 3-8 reps. When squatting 3x per week, vary the intensity and volume across the week. For assistance work, 6-10 reps for the main assistance lift, and 10-20 for others.

Cardio: Twigs and fatties should both stay active, but obviously you shouldn't do too much if you want to get bigger/stronger. If the main goal is to get bigger and stronger, any cardio work should be done on lifting days, after lifting, so it won't interfere too much with your lifting.

G86

I've my days divided up pretty similar to a few posters, but I'm doing Coan Phillipi now on the deadlift day so I've moved my press over to my squat/bench day.

So I have 2 strength days with those main lifts, some super sets, and then 2 cardio days - usually some kind of metcon.

e.g
Day 1 - Coan Phillipi

Day 2:
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
OH Press 5x5 supersetted with OH Weighted Lunges 10x5
One Arm Rows supersetted with Tri Dips 10repsx5
Knees to Elbows 5x5 with Weighted Crunches 10x5
Finish up then with something like Box Hops and KB Swings for 21,18,15,12,9,6,3

Thinking about starting Smolov Base twice a week over 6 weeks for my squat today though - I've hit a bit of sticking point with it. Not sure if I could just slot it in where my 5x5 is on Day 2? Or would it need a day to itself? Any advice greatly appreciated

banshee_bones

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I am going to come back and edit this...as it develops.

Firstly, what are the majority of people looking for?

You have fatties looking to get stronger and or bigger.
You have fatties looking to get fit.
You have fatties looking to just look good nekid.
You have twigs looking to get stronger and or bigger.
You have twigs looking to get fit.
You have twigs looking to just look good nekid.

Does that cover it?

Lets build some training templates and rules for all of these? If nothing else it will give us something cool to argue about for hours on end.

What do we need to do to warm up?
What exercises?
Set and rep schemes?
Training frequency?
Do we need Oly lifting?
What does it take to build the perfect program?

Great idea for a thread, just want to clarify though, who are these templates being constructed for? athletes and serious gym goers? or regular guys and girls going to the gym three maybe five days a week? or will there be seperate templates for each?

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

From what I can gather as a long-time lurker here, workouts should take about 45 minutes. Anything over an hour is too much.
But then I see some of the workouts in the fitness logs, and they seem to go on forever! So, it's confusing.

I'm all for the 20-minute cure. I don't think it's going to happen, though.

Same here, theres a wealth of information on here but with regard to that yeah some of those workouts do seem quite lengthly!

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Will Heffernan wrote: »

You have twigs looking to get stronger.

This probably describes me best - but from my point of view, my priorities lie with MMA, and for the time being, I won't be able to spare more than 1 day a week in the gym, probably 3/4 times a week training in MMA as well though.

I know the basics of what I should be doing in order to concentrate on getting stronger, but how do I maximize the results I get if I can only spare 1 day a week hitting the weights.

Again it's another 20min fix job - but I'll be putting the work in elsewhere and a program that requires 3 heavy weights sessions doesn't suit.

El Horseboxo

I've stuck with the following for a long time now. Got it off muscletalk forum. Have made slight variations for periods such as dropping the deadlifts for a few weeks and changed from barbell bench to dumbbell and barbell press to dumbbell press. Or changed dips to pull ups. I made huge gains in strength and size over the past 2 years. Of course that was aided by nailing my diet.

All 5x5

Day 1

Deadlift
Pendlay row
Close grip bench

Day 2

Bench
Weighted dips
Barbell curls

Day 3

Press
Squats
Sldl's

Carido 3 days a week for around 30 minutes and i'd ab work on one of them. It's a fairly basic compound heavy workout that i usually finish in about 50 minutes including warm up. Getting a bit bored with it now so may change it soon.

Mellor

Feel free to rip this apart, actually please do.
There are easily errors in the way i've grouped them

D1:Chest/Back
Bench press
Pull/Chin ups
Incline/Decline bench
Inverted rows
Chest flys
Bent over rows
Chest dips
Lat pull down

D2: Legs n Shoulders
Squat
Press
Deadlift
Upright row
Seated DB press
Lunges
Fr/Lat Raises

D3:Cardio/conditioning
Variations of:
running, rowing, cycling, both steady state and HIIT
Metcons: skip, KB swings, wallballs
Complex: squat/press/BOR/RDL

Renn

Hanley wrote: »

Because pretty much everyone who's logged their experience here has gotten weaker on it.

Rep PR's go up, maximal strength goes down.

Came across this post after reading rocky's 'Perfect Program'.

Fwiw, I've been using the 5/3/1 template for the past year and have had great success with it. My rep PR's have gone up and my 1RM's have gone up - and of course I'm happy with that. Of course it's not the be-all and end-all of programs out there but I basically picked it because of the simplicity of it and for someone who wants to be out of the gym in 30mins/45mins/whatever, it's pretty ideal.

But I'll have a read through some logs tomorrow and try and see where you're coming from.

Remmy

perhaps Im off the mark here with the intention of this thread but I'd like to here the wisdom behind how one would fit in conditioning work into a 3/week program,specifically for someone who needs to move up in weight but still needs to improve anerobic performance for sports.How would one best do this without messing up too much with recovery for the lifting days and biting into muscle gain.Sounds like a mouthfull eh?:rolleyes:

Hanley

Renn wrote: »

Came across this post after reading rocky's 'Perfect Program'.

Fwiw, I've been using the 5/3/1 template for the past year and have had great success with it. My rep PR's have gone up and my 1RM's have gone up - and of course I'm happy with that. Of course it's not the be-all and end-all of programs out there but I basically picked it because of the simplicity of it and for someone who wants to be out of the gym in 30mins/45mins/whatever, it's pretty ideal.

But I'll have a read through some logs tomorrow and try and see where you're coming from.

What sort of numbers are you putting up, out of interest? And how long are you training?

Renn

Numbers? Weigh 80kg, DL 190, SQ 130, BP 90, MP 60.

Might not seem much to some out there but I'm happy. My deadlift used to be around the 150 mark a year ago so there's definitely been an improvement there. Maybe I've always been able to do 190 and this program just happened to focus me to lift that sort of weight if you get what I mean?

Not training long, only joined a gym last year, only squatting a year etc...so it's probably hard to gauge how well the program works. But like I said, it's simplicity suits me down to the ground.

nice_guy80

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Perfect program for me goes along these lines.

2 day split as follows, basically legs/push/pull.

Day 1
Squat
Bench press
Barbell row
Curls
Ab work

Day 2
Deadlift
OH Press
Pull up
Tri extensions
Oblique work

scarily similar to my own at the mo
except I do dips and weighted bench dips
and some other stuff

Mellor

Mellor wrote: »

Feel free to rip this apart, actually please do.
There are easily errors in the way i've grouped them

D1:Chest/Back
Bench press
Pull/Chin ups
Incline/Decline bench
Bent over rows
Chest dips
Inverted rows
Maybe a few curls

D2: Legs n Shoulders
Squat
Press
Deadlift
Maybe some squat variation, front, thruster, overhead (rarely) etc
Upright row
Seated DB press


D3:Cardio/conditioning
Variations of:
running, rowing, cycling, both steady state and HIIT
Metcons: skip, KB swings, wallballs
Complex: squat/press/BOR/RDL

As comments as adjusted?