Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

Peregrinus · 10-04-2013 09:51AM

MadsL wrote: »

Christened Sarah, Exam Certs say Sorcha.

Incorrect translation, fake name.

It is illegal to change your name, is it not, without deed poll?

No, not illegal at all. In fact, a deed poll is never required; if you make one, it's because you find it convenient to.

Furthermore, this isn't a change of name; it's the adoption of an additional name since (presumably) your daughter still goes by her English name outside school. It's perfectly legal, and quite common, to have two (or more) names.

On edit: It is, of course, illegal to change your name or adopt a new one for the purpose of committing a fraud. But it's not otherwise illegal, or controlled in any way.

doolox · 10-04-2013 09:53AM

In school we were always put down on school records by our Irish name and it could result in punishment when the roll was called and you didn't respond on time to your Irish name, which can happen to any average 6 yr old.

A few of these punishments for a minor human failing has ended up giving me an abiding "love" for the Irish language.

Much to the horror of my secondary school teacher who was a decent enough guy who came from the Gaeltacht, spoke fluent Irish and was the real thing, many pupils emerging from the primary school system of the time acquired a contempt and hatred of the language often due to bad teaching methods, poor motivational skills and probably from a home or parental attitude not in favour of the language.

Many of these issues still exist in passing on the language to our children.

Forcing names and usages on an individuals identity is very damaging but is a way used by many nation-states to subvert and destroy the ethnic identities of many people across Europe especially in border areas.

In the past many Breton people had french names imposed on them. Likewise the Basques etc. There is a history of enforced Russification of Poles residing in the East of that country and similar processes in many border areas in Europe.

There is a huge political dimension to these exercises of enforced Gaelicisation of Anglophone people in Ireland but it is not talked about.

Many Anglophones are made to feel inferior or "less Irish" for not being able to speak for what is to them a complex foreign tongue, in spite of the poor standard of teachng of languages in general in this country.

This needs to be rectified if we are to make real progress in Irish language and languages in general.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 09:55AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, not illegal at all. In fact, a deed poll is never required; if you make one, it's because you find it convenient to.

Furthermore, this isn't a change of name; it's the adoption of an additional name since (presumably) your daughter still goes by her English name outside school. It's perfectly legal, and quite common, to have two (or more) names.

Yes it is. But to change your name requires a deed poll.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

Bit silly to get your certs issued in a name that isn't actually 'yours' - why not change the Birth Cert properly if you plan using your translated name for education purposes. If it is SO CRUCIAL to the schools then get deed polls issued at enrollment.

Peregrinus · 10-04-2013 09:57AM

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

But there's a difference between changing your name, and officially recording the change of your name.

And you can change your name, without officially recording the change, and its (a) perfectly legal and effective, and (b) need not cause any practical problems. It's common for women to change their names when they marry. Very few of them find the need to "officially record" this with a deed poll.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 09:58AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

On edit: It is, of course, illegal to change your name or adopt a new one for the purpose of committing a fraud. But it's not otherwise illegal, or controlled in any way.

How do you feel about schools recording kids names as names not legally recognised anywhere else in order to satisfy some sense of ethos. Does that not strike you as a fraud?

hoodwinked · 10-04-2013 09:59AM

MadsL wrote: »

Yes it is. But to change your name requires a deed poll.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

Bit silly to get your certs issued in a name that isn't actually 'yours' - why not change the Birth Cert properly if you plan using your translated name for education purposes. If it is SO CRUCIAL to the schools then get deed polls issued at enrollment.

again you are being a bit extreme, i used my irish name in school i used my english version outside of school, there were no issues, i didn't suffer a loss of identity, in fact the only effect it had was that im here trying to argue that it doesn't make a difference.

honestly if your daughter wasn't complaining about this what would she complain about? homework? uniform? teenagers generally find a crusade to go fight for usually aimed at some school policy, helps them assert their independence..etc

maybe you should just explain to her its only school its only for 6 years of her long life, and when she is an adult she can choose her own name.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:02AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

But there's a difference between changing your name, and officially recording the change of your name.

And you can change your name, without officially recording the change, and its (a) perfectly legal and effective, and (b) need not cause any practical problems. It's common for women to change their names when they marry. Very few of them find the need to "officially record" this with a deed poll.

The issue is not you changing your name, but an authority other than the parents forcing a name change on a child against their will.

Astonishing that a School Principal's autocracy extends to the name of children, that can be changed on a whim.

dellWlan · 10-04-2013 10:04AM

I would have thought language or the schools immersive policy are irrelevant.

It's just being disrespectful to address someone other than how they've asked to be addressed, and which clearly upsets them.

It's demeaning and bullying behaviour. Especially from someone in authority.

Gambas · 10-04-2013 10:05AM

MadsL wrote: »

My daughter attends a second-level gaelscoil that insists on calling her by a translation of her actual name that sound similar to her actual name but is in fact a different Irish name. She hates it and has frequently resisted it by saying to her teacher 'that's not my name'. Her teachers continually 'correct' her if she asserts that her name is her name by repeating the translated name back to her.

Should she put up with this? What does AH think?

"Gaelscoil in Irish Identity shocker"

People have multiple identities. Name, position on the football field, job title etc.. Just like someone calling you 'coach', or 'Baroness Thatcher', your daughter has a special identity linked to the Irish language when she attends a Gaelscoil. It doesn't override the name her family chose to call her. If you have a problem with that, then you have sent your daughter to the wrong school.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:08AM

hoodwinked wrote: »

again you are being a bit extreme, i used my irish name in school i used my english version outside of school, there were no issues, i didn't suffer a loss of identity, in fact the only effect it had was that im here trying to argue that it doesn't make a difference.

You were obvious happy with the name. My daughter is not, go figure - people are different.

honestly if your daughter wasn't complaining about this what would she complain about? homework? uniform? teenagers generally find a crusade to go fight for usually aimed at some school policy, helps them assert their independence..etc

Distract her from a perfect valid point to some bullsh1t uniform thing. Are you serious? Or is that just some slightly disguised victim blaming. And before you throw your eyes to heaven in some mock outrage about me calling her a victim, some teachers are behaving in a way that would not be tolerated in a workplace.
She's not distressed by it, just irritated.

maybe you should just explain to her its only school its only for 6 years of her long life, and when she is an adult she can choose her own name.

She has a name she is happy with. She'd like to use it 24/7 - as would we.

Peregrinus · 10-04-2013 10:09AM

MadsL wrote: »

Yes it is. But to change your name requires a deed poll.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

Bit silly to get your certs issued in a name that isn't actually 'yours' - why not change the Birth Cert properly if you plan using your translated name for education purposes. If it is SO CRUCIAL to the schools then get deed polls issued at enrollment.

In Ireland, your name is a matter of fact, not law. What people call you, that's your name. If different people or different groups of people call you different things, then you have two (or more) names. This is common.

You can, of course, try to influence what people call you, and most of the time you can succeed. So to "change your name", all you have to do is get people to stop calling you, say, MadSL, and start calling you, say, CrazySL. Voila! You've changed your name.

A deed poll is evidence of the name you use. You get it if, and only if, you find you need it. If you're using a name that appears on your birth cert, or on your marriage cert, or on your Leaving Cert, or on your electricity bill, you'll find that bureaucrats are mostly happy not to seek further evidence. But if they aren't, and they demand evidence that CrazySL is your name, the easiest way for you to generate evidence that they will accept is probably for you to make, and register, a deed poll.

A deed poll is simply a formal declaration that says, basically, "I used to be called MadSL, but now everyone calls me CrazySL". Note that it doesn't in itself change your name; it's merely formal written evidence, generated by you, that your name has changed. You're the appropriate person to give this evidence because you obviously know better than anyone else what people call you.

Note that if people don't call you CrazySL, either because you haven't asked them to or you have failed to persuade them to, and you make a deed pool saying "I'm called CrazySL now", that's not effective to change your name, because your name is what you are actually called, not what you wish people would call you. (In fact, it's technically perjury, since swearing that you are called CrazySL if in reality nobody calls you that is a falsehood.)

seamus · 10-04-2013 10:11AM

MadsL wrote: »

Christened Sarah, Exam Certs say Sorcha.
Incorrect translation, fake name.
It is illegal to change your name, is it not, without deed poll?

MadsL wrote: »

The only way to officially record the change of your name is by executing a deed poll.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

Legally, you do not have to change your name by deed poll for it to be recognised.

As mentioned, common usage is enough for it to be legally recognised. Deed poll officially records that your name has changed, but it is not the only legal way of establishing a changed name. Deed poll just makes it easier because you don't have to then prove that you use the name.

In Ireland we also have a legal quirk that as far as I know, any court will recognise your English or Irish name as legally valid. So "Sean MacUisce" is not a different name to "John Waters".

The exception to this being a passport, where you need to prove common usage in order to have your Irish name on the passport (or your english name if your birth cert has the Irish one).

Initially when I opened this thread I thought, "It's a gaelscoil, FFS, get over it", but actually I agree with you on principle.

Internationally recognised protocol across all languages is to respect someone's given/chosen name and use and pronounce it as closely as you can to the way the person does.

So we don't call the French President Frank Holland, we address him by his actual name.
Irish schools (both gaelscoileanna and ordinary primary schools) break this protocol and insist on bastardising translations of the children's names. Which is just plain incorrect and disrespectful.

It's a symptom of the fanaticism which many organisation have around Irish, and this fanaticism is the reason why so many Irish people hate Irish.

Peregrinus · 10-04-2013 10:14AM

MadsL wrote: »

How do you feel about schools recording kids names as names not legally recognised anywhere else in order to satisfy some sense of ethos. Does that not strike you as a fraud?

No, not at all, not in the legal sense. There's no dishonesty involved; no attempt to pretend that the person on the school roll is a different person from your daughter.

Fraud in the context of name-change arises where you are trying to pretend (a) that you are not the MadSL who incurred all those debts, but somebody completely different, or (b) that you are the same Bill Gates who has all those squillions of dollars, so can you get some short-term credit, please.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:16AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

In Ireland, your name is a matter of fact, not law. What people call you, that's your name. If different people or different groups of people call you different things, then you have two (or more) names. This is common.

You can, of course, try to influence what people call you, and most of the time you can succeed. So to "change your name", all you have to do is get people to stop calling you, say, MadSL, and start calling you, say, CrazySL. Voila! You've changed your name.

A deed poll is evidence of the name you use. You get it if, and only if, you find you need it. If you're using a name that appears on your birth cert, or on your marriage cert, or on your Leaving Cert, or on your electricity bill, you'll find that bureaucrats are mostly happy not to seek further evidence. But if they aren't, and they demand evidence that CrazySL is your name, the easiest way for you to generate evidence that they will accept is probably for you to make, and register, a deed poll.

A deed poll is simply a formal declaration that says, basically, "I used to be called MadSL, but now everyone calls me CrazySL". Note that it doesn't in itself change your name; it's merely formal written evidence, generated by you, that your name has changed. You're the appropriate person to give this evidence because you obviously know better than anyone else what people call you.

Note that if people don't call you CrazySL, either because you haven't asked them to or you have failed to persuade them to, and you make a deed pool saying "I'm called CrazySL now", that's not effective to change your name, because your name is what you are actually called, not what you wish people would call you. (In fact, it's technically perjury, since swearing that you are called CrazySL if in reality nobody calls you that is a falsehood.)

Simply missing the point that it you that control this. If a policeman met me one day and recorded my name as "Crazy F*cker" on pulse and that propagated through all Govt systems I would be rightly pissed.

It seems to boil down to the fact that you believe some authorities in Ireland can call you what they want.

I'd love to see how many people would contest a fine addressed to a badly translated version of their name.

An Coilean · 10-04-2013 10:18AM

Seachmall wrote: »

It's not her Irish name because she doesn't have an Irish name.

Her name is an English one. It's stupid to tell her it's in the wrong language.

Dont be talking nonsense, it is common knowledge that Irish names in English generally have an accepted Irish equivlent.

If your name in English is Paul, the Irish version of that name is Pol (With a fada on the o)

It's a Gaelscoil, it is common practice for the Irish Language version of a name to be used where possible. If the girl in question has a problem with this, I don't think it should be any major problem to contact the school and have the English version used.
At the same time, the parent should be equally concerned that their daughter is taking a minor issue to heart to such an extent, it may be an indication of a bigger problem.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:19AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, not at all, not in the legal sense. There's no dishonesty involved; no attempt to pretend that the person on the school roll is a different person from your daughter.

Fraud in the context of name-change arises where you are trying to pretend (a) that you are not the MadSL who incurred all those debts, but somebody completely different, or (b) that you are the same Bill Gates who has all those squillions of dollars, so can you get some short-term credit, please.

I was being somewhat facitious about fraud. However, please address why a school should have the power to change a name without consent?

An Coilean · 10-04-2013 10:22AM

MadsL wrote: »

Christened Sarah, Exam Certs say Sorcha.

Incorrect translation, fake name.

It is illegal to change your name, is it not, without deed poll?

What do you think the proper Irish version of Sarah should be?

No its not illigeal to use the Irish version of any name without a deed poll, they are considered to be two versions of the same name, not two different names.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:24AM

The Puppy wrote: »

Dont be talking nonsense, it is common knowledge that Irish names in English generally have an accepted Irish equivlent.

Fixed your post. That's more 'acceptable' to me - please use that as your username in future. This is the English immersion part of AH. Off to the Irish one if you want a username like that.

If your name in English is Paul, the Irish version of that name is Pol (With a fada on the o)

It's a Gaelscoil, it is common practice for the Irish Language version of a name to be used where possible. If the girl in question has a problem with this, I don't think it should be any major problem to contact the school and have the English version used.
At the same time, the parent should be equally concerned that their daughter is taking a minor issue to heart to such an extent, it may be an indication of a bigger problem.

Oh Christ, now she is emotionally unstable. :rolleyes: I wish people would actually read my posts. Best take her to the shrink and sort out her chronic irritation.

Or people could just stop calling her by a name she hates. That isn't hers.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:26AM

The Puppy's doodoo wrote: »

What do you think the proper Irish version of Sarah should be?

High Lord Zim of Altaran?

What should be the proper Irish version of Adolf? Or Maximillian. Or Rheema or Nadia? Or Lenka?

ted1 · 10-04-2013 10:26AM

People's name ate people's name and shpuldnot be translated.
English speaking schools fon't translate polish, Nigerian, French kids names and so on.

seamus · 10-04-2013 10:28AM

Quick question; if Mr Ngubu enrolled his son Mwamba at a gaelscoil, what would they call him?

And if they wouldn't translate his name, why would they translate anyone else's?

Peregrinus · 10-04-2013 10:29AM

MadsL wrote: »

Simply missing the point that it you that control this. If a policeman met me one day and recorded my name as "Crazy F*cker" on pulse and that propagated through all Govt systems I would be rightly pissed.

It seems to boil down to the fact that you believe some authorities in Ireland can call you what they want.

I'd love to see how many people would contest a fine addressed to a badly translated version of their name.

You don't control it completely. Your name is initially assigned to you by your parents and/or family, and later on if you want to change it you have to get at leasts the assent of your family and/or social circle (as in, you have to get at least a critical mass of them to call you by your chosen new name).

And your name can be changed, or at least you can acquire a new name, without being the driver of that yourself. This often happens on migration, for example, where Jerzy eventually becomes George, whether he wants to or not. Not necessarily because the authorities call him George, but because his workmates and neighbours do. Or, at least, becomes George in some contexts and it would or could be fraudulent of him to deny that in those contexts, yes, "George" refers to him.

Your name is what you are called and, if you think about it, that means it's ultimately other people who determine what your name is. Your ability to control this largely rests on their willingness to act in accordance with your wishes in this regard.

And, in a school environment, the school culture often doesn not accord with the pupil's wishes, whether that's with respect to mandatory sport, or whether you tuck your shirt in, or whether you wear uniform, or whether you use an Irish version of your name in the school context, or whether you can drop chemistry and have a free period instead, or a whole host of other matters.

I'm not saying the school is right to require your daughter to use an Irish name in the school context. I'm saying I don't find this behaviour particuarly egregious or surprising, given that we're dealing with a gaelscoil here.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:30AM

There is a girl of middle-eastern descent (born in Ireland, half-Irish) in her school, oddly there is no translation done on her name.

Shocking slipping of standards in the ethos.

LordSutch · 10-04-2013 10:37AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Agus ciúnas bothar cailín bainne to you too!

And silence road milk girl to you

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:39AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You don't control it completely. Your name is initially assigned to you by your parents and/or family, and later on if you want to change it you have to get at leasts the assent of your family and/or social circle (as in, you have to get at least a critical mass of them to call you by your chosen new name).

And your name can be changed, or at least you can acquire a new name, without being the driver of that yourself. This often happens on migration, for example, where Jerzy eventually becomes George, whether he wants to or not. Not necessarily because the authorities call him George, but because his workmates and neighbours do. Or, at least, becomes George in some contexts and it would or could be fraudulent of him to deny that in those contexts, yes, "George" refers to him.

If Jerzy asks his boss not to call him George, yet his boss persists. Does Jerzy have a case of harassment?

Your name is what you are called and, if you think about it, that means it's ultimately other people who determine what your name is.

Ultimately...no it isn't. It is always in your control - however, those in authority over you can use it as a powerful piece of bullying and controlling behaviour.

I once knew a teacher named Cookie, everyone used this baby name that she had grown up with. I forget her birth name, think it was Catherine. All staff and Year 13 pupils called her Cookie. The Principal refused point blank and insisted on calling her Catherine.

Your ability to control this largely rests on their willingness to act in accordance with your wishes in this regard.

If you have made your wishes clear, the ability to tolerate sheer rudeness becomes the controlling factor, she came close to suing the Principal at one point. (edit - Cookie, not my daughter)

And, in a school environment, the school culture often doesn not accord with the pupil's wishes, whether that's with respect to mandatory sport, or whether you tuck your shirt in, or whether you wear uniform, or whether you use an Irish version of your name in the school context, or whether you can drop chemistry and have a free period instead, or a whole host of other matters.

Equating children's names with all those other things really is a very demeaning attitude. Would you accept a school that referred to pupils only by number, like prisoners?

I'm not saying the school is right to require your daughter to use an Irish name in the school context. I'm saying I don't find this behaviour particuarly egregious or surprising, given that we're dealing with a gaelscoil here.

Are they above common manners?

An Coilean · 10-04-2013 10:40AM

MadsL wrote: »

Fixed your post. That's more 'acceptable' to me - please use that as your username in future. This is the English immersion part of AH. Off to the Irish one if you want a username like that.

Ohh Nooooos, I will have to start a thread in AH about this outragous attempt to subvert my identity.

Its fraud I tells ya, fraud.

Oh Christ, now she is emotionally unstable. :rolleyes: I wish people would actually read my posts. Best take her to the shrink and sort out her chronic irritation.

Or people could just stop calling her by a name she hates. That isn't hers.

Just a suggestion, based on how vexed you have come accross in this thread it seemed that it is being a serious issue to her, but perhaps she is not as troubled by this as you seem to be.
Also I was not suggesting she is unstable but that her taking to heart what most people would consider to be a nonissue may be an indication of a larger problem with the teacher in question.

VinLieger · 10-04-2013 10:44AM

Yay this is the irish language thread from the other week all over again with the same faces, hi everyone

Okay so no her name is her name the idea that it can be translated into another language is ridiculous. I dont care if theres an irish language equivalent the key is its only an equivalent which is not the same as the original name

10-04-2013 10:47AM

MadsL wrote: »

But it is not her name. Would you expect to be called Ricardo in Spain rather than Richard? Your name is an important part of your identity.

I have a common first name of Roman origin - when I lived in Italy and France I did get called by the local version occasionally. It didn't bother me as it was the same name and when in Rome...

Saying that I wouldn't be impressed if they were calling me a different but similar name.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:48AM

A puppy dogs tail wrote: »

Ohh Nooooos, I will have to start a thread in AH about this outragous attempt to subvert my identity.
Its fraud I tells ya, fraud.

please stop using that user name that I keep having to translate, and my google translate keeps giving me different answers.

Just a suggestion, based on how vexed you have come accross in this thread it seemed that it is being a serious issue to her, but perhaps she is not as troubled by this as you seem to be.

Troubled? I'm raising a discussion thread on boards for some opinions and shits and giggles (Space Corp Directive 356)

Cracks me up how anyone who disagrees with me has to stoop to faux concern about my mental state. Cop on.

Also I was not suggesting she is unstable but that her taking to heart what most people would consider to be a nonissue may be an indication of a larger problem with the teacher in question.

Stop trying to be a pop psychologist, when all you are doing is yet another little piece of victim blaming - she's going grrr not AGGGHHHHH!!!!! Oddly enough it is perfectly normal to be irritated when people are rude to you. You are probably getting a little irritated yourself by now. Careful, could be a sign of a wider issue with boards.ie.

And teacher? I have repeatedly typed teachers - detention for you, pay attention in future.

MadsL · 10-04-2013 10:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a common first name of Roman origin - when I lived in Italy and France I did get called by the local version occasionally. It didn't bother me as it was the same name and when in Rome...

Saying that I wouldn't be impressed if they were calling me a different but similar name.

Caesar? That you?

Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

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