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(UK) Man loses 5 of his kids in a fire

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    #362
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    allibastor wrote: »
    What? I am sorry but how does incarceration help them or society. Would you think the states are backwards? They have the death penalty in places. How does it justify spending money to keep and guard these people over paying for let's say cancer treatment for someone else?

    The states isn't progressive


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    #363
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    efb wrote: »
    The states isn't progressive


    Can you explain that further


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    #364
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Laws on teaching of creationism would be one example. The death penalty being another


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    #365
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    allibastor wrote: »
    What? I am sorry but how does incarceration help them or society. Would you think the states are backwards? They have the death penalty in places. How does it justify spending money to keep and guard these people over paying for let's say cancer treatment for someone else?

    Like I said its an essential cost that a normal society has to bear, just like policing, traffic lights and tax collection. It's not taking money from cancer patients.

    You mentioned the US. They have the death penalty but its not a cost saving measure. It's supposed to be a deterrent.

    Executing someone is very expensive. You have to hold them in a special unit for years until they have exhausted a costly appeals system. Not many people bound for execution accept the sentence.

    Society does benefit from having these people locked up away from everyone else so its not like we get no benefit from it.


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    #366
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    efb wrote: »
    Laws on teaching of creationism would be one example. The death penalty being another

    To be fair, 90% of our schools are church owned and tell stories if a guy who could walk on water and turn water to wine.


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    #367
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    Airitech wrote: »
    Like I said its an essential cost that a normal society has to bear, just like policing, traffic lights and tax collection. It's not taking money from cancer patients.

    You mentioned the US. They have the death penalty but its not a cost saving measure. It's supposed to be a deterrent.

    Executing someone is very expensive. You have to hold them in a special unit for years until they have exhausted a costly appeals system. Not many people bound for execution accept the sentence.

    Society does benefit from having these people locked up away from everyone else so its not like we get no benefit from it.


    But how does releasing him have any benefit. He will serve 15 years according to sky news, his wife and his accomplice will serve around 8-9 years. While I agree that death is not a solution to every murder, can anyone say how keeping this lot in prison at her majesty's pleasure is of any benefit


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    #368
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    allibastor wrote: »
    But how does releasing him have any benefit. He will serve 15 years according to sky news, his wife and his accomplice will serve around 8-9 years. While I agree that death is not a solution to every murder, can anyone say how keeping this lot in prison at her majesty's pleasure is of any benefit

    He is eligible for parole in 17 years but that's no guarantee he will get it. He could conceivably be held indefinitely of the parole board so wished. There is a good chance he will die in prison.


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    #369
    ManMade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 475 ✭✭ManMade


    allibastor wrote: »
    To be fair, 90% of our schools are church owned and tell stories if a guy who could walk on water and turn water to wine.

    Creationism is taught and examined in science class in some states. No matter how much the RCC has entwined itself our education system, they have zero say over our science curriculum. So ireland would be more progressive in that sense.

    Back on topic
    Why manslaughter? Is it because he wanted "to save them and be a hero" that its not murder?


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    #370
    WhatNowForUs?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭WhatNowForUs?


    allibastor wrote: »
    But how does releasing him have any benefit. He will serve 15 years according to sky news, his wife and his accomplice will serve around 8-9 years. While I agree that death is not a solution to every murder, can anyone say how keeping this lot in prison at her majesty's pleasure is of any benefit
    Not 15 years its 17 and he will not be let out after that 17.
    Not murder but manslaughter.
    It costs more to sentence somebody to death then to incarerate them for the rest of their lives under the US system.


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    #371
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    ManMade wrote: »
    Creationism is taught and examined in science class in some states. No matter how much the RCC has entwined itself our education system, they have zero say over our science curriculum. So ireland would be more progressive in that sense.

    Back on topic
    Why manslaughter? Is it because he wanted "to save them and be a hero" that its not murder?

    Didn't set out to kill them, it's very ****ing hard to get a murder conviction. Given his testimony on how he tried to frame his mistress it's easy for his defence lawyer to argue that it was accidental.


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    #372
    IzzyWizzy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭IzzyWizzy


    ManMade wrote: »
    Creationism is taught and examined in science class in some states. No matter how much the RCC has entwined itself our education system, they have zero say over our science curriculum. So ireland would be more progressive in that sense.

    Back on topic
    Why manslaughter? Is it because he wanted "to save them and be a hero" that its not murder?

    Yes. Murder is when you plan to kill someone. As awful as this man is, I don't think he ever meant to kill the kids and there's nothing to suggest he did. Not least because he'd then lose all the benefits, the benefits seemingly being the reason he wanted the other 5 kids to move back in. He planned the fire, but didn't plan for the kids to die in it which is why he couldn't really be charged with murder.


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    #373
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    IzzyWizzy wrote: »
    Yes. Murder is when you plan to kill someone. As awful as this man is, I don't think he ever meant to kill the kids and there's nothing to suggest he did. Not least because he'd then lose all the benefits, the benefits seemingly being the reason he wanted the other 5 kids to move back in. He planned the fire, but didn't plan for the kids to die in it which is why he couldn't really be charged with murder.

    Unfortunately your correct , though he and others should be tried in the result, not the intention


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    #374
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    conorhal wrote: »
    Your strop is pretty hypocritical when it's clear your only real concern is that the Daily Mail might have been right for once, thus blunting your ability to chide people for their lack of compassion and clouding their view of you up there on the moral high ground. Which kind of confirms many of my views of lefty hand-wringers, that much of their bluster is all mock outrage and pretext for attacking those you disagree with, but they tend not to posess any real compassion.

    The guy who made this headline is as much of a sociopathic parasite as Philpott is. For me, that's as repulsive as the Sun and the Hillsborough stuff. Shocking.


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    #375
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Jeez, that headline is reprehensible of course, but I wouldn't say whoever wrote it is as bad as Philpott!
    old hippy wrote: »
    Lucky old you with your real man of a father.
    Bit personal really.

    Philpott demonstrated extreme selfishness and to be a manipulator, liar, hypocrite, opportunist and schemer extraordinaire. Traits lots of us have in tiny doses - to err is to be human, but he behaved amorally. No moral compass. No ethics or boundaries. A colossal sense of self entitlement at no matter what cost. I don't know was he a sociopath - I guess I think of sociopaths as loners and social misfits. I can't get beyond thinking that he was just a bastard, who wasn't necessarily abused or mentally damaged. I don't know obviously, but that's my impression... I'd say he was raised all right without any ethics/boundaries/education/values (monkey see, monkey do) and that is something that does need to be examined in relation to children coming from similar homes, for their benefit and for the benefit of society, but not out of compassion for him. Feck that. He and only he is responsible for all he did.

    Hope jail is extremely tough and really hope to feck other prisoners don't eventually start looking up to him as a bit of a lovable rogue...


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    #376
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    allibastor wrote: »
    But why? Do you know how much it costs the uk to keep the identity of Maxine Carr hidden, or any other well known criminals.

    Why don't we have some form if painful death for people like this. I mean really can anyone say that they should be set free in 15 years I Beleive as mick philpott will be?
    Give up reading that auld Daily Mail, it has your head warped.

    Who cares what it costs the UK? As long as they don't get lodged up there beside you sure aren't you grand?

    The timing of the release for any of the three killers will depend on a number of factors, the first being eligibility for release on licence after they have served the minimum sentence laid down by the judge. There is no automatic release date for any of them, particularly Philpott who I hope lives a very long and very unhealthy life in prison.


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    #377
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    efb wrote: »
    Laws on teaching of creationism would be one example. The death penalty being another
    The legal classification of pizza (irrespective of sauces or toppings) as a vegetable would be another. It drove poor Jamie Oliver to tears.


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    #378
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    allibastor wrote: »
    Could I ask a question. On boards there had always been a good divide between people who think the criminals need to be treated and rehabilitated, such as the guys who killed James bulger.

    Can anyone say that this guy and his wife should not just be killed? I mean really? It will cost the tax payer over 250k a year to provide then with extra security after this. Do they really deserve to be kept in prison ? Would the world not be better off if they ceased to exist?

    An eye for an eye, eh?

    Who would rid the world of them? You? Would you step forwards and commit the murders to avenge the murders?


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    #379
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Jeez, that headline is reprehensible of course, but I wouldn't say whoever wrote it is as bad as Philpott!

    Bit personal really.

    Philpott demonstrated extreme selfishness and to be a manipulator, liar, hypocrite, opportunist and schemer extraordinaire. Traits lots of us have in tiny doses - to err is to be human, but he behaved amorally. No moral compass. No ethics or boundaries. A colossal sense of self entitlement at no matter what cost. I don't know was he a sociopath - I guess I think of sociopaths as loners and social misfits. I can't get beyond thinking that he was just a bastard, who wasn't necessarily abused or mentally damaged. I don't know obviously, but that's my impression... I'd say he was raised all right without any ethics/boundaries/education/values (monkey see, monkey do) and that is something that does need to be examined in relation to children coming from similar homes, for their benefit and for the benefit of society, but not out of compassion for him. Feck that. He and only he is responsible for all he did.

    Hope jail is extremely tough and really hope to feck other prisoners don't eventually start looking up to him as a bit of a lovable rogue...

    This is precisely the type of thread that generates a bit of personal verbals between passionate posters. Because I am against the idea of one murder for another and because I don't equate people on benefits as some kind of untouchable low caste system - evidently I don't have a life :rolleyes:

    Yes, Philpott is twisted and calculating and all kinds of wrong. He deserves the sentence he got, without parole.

    You are correct in mentioning the cycle in how he was raised, this is certainly something that desperately needs tackling and no amount of shouting "scum" and "kill him! kill him!" will drown out that need.


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    #380
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    old hippy wrote: »
    An eye for an eye, eh?

    Who would rid the world of them? You? Would you step forwards and commit the murders to avenge the murders?
    I think you would find no shortage of people who would be willing to apply for such a role. Just because you lack the stomach for handing out justice do not think that there are people who would be willing to fill the role.


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    #381
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    I think you would find no shortage of people who would be willing to apply for such a role. Just because you lack the stomach for handing out justice do not think that there are people who would be willing to fill the role.

    I freely admit I lack the stomach in dishing out old testament vengeance and retribution. I freely admit I don't lie awake at night entertaining thoughts of murder and a dubious intimacy with notions of "justice".

    Are you willing to fill the role, GMF? Or will you farm it out to one of your stormtroopers or Lord Vader?


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    #382
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    old hippy wrote: »
    I freely admit I lack the stomach in dishing out old testament vengeance and retribution. I freely admit I don't lie awake at night entertaining thoughts of murder and a dubious intimacy with notions of "justice".

    Are you willing to fill the role, GMF? Or will you farm it out to one of your stormtroopers or Lord Vader?
    i doubt many sane people lie awake doing what i have enbolded on the above post. As for would i take on the task if the money was right than a job is a job would be my way of looking at it.


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    #383
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    i doubt many sane people lie awake doing what i have enbolded on the above post. As for would i take on the task if the money was right than a job is a job would be my way of looking at it.

    You've clearly been thinking about it though, GMG. You evidently have the stomach for it and apparently there's no shortage of people dying to murder Philpott and co.

    So, how will you dispense your vigilante justice (because it's not a job and it couldn't possibly be about the money - it's "justice", right?) and how will you ensure you remain at liberty after the crime?

    I eagerly await your reply. And remember, as you said - it's all about having the stomach for justice - I'm sure the latter bobbins about it being a job was just a slip up (in the excitement of it all) on your part...


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    #384
    WhatNowForUs?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭WhatNowForUs?


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    i doubt many sane people lie awake doing what i have enbolded on the above post. As for would i take on the task if the money was right than a job is a job would be my way of looking at it.

    I think the nazi's had the same thought process. It was just a job, I was ordered to do it.


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    #385
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    old hippy wrote: »
    You've clearly been thinking about it though, GMG. You evidently have the stomach for it and apparently there's no shortage of people dying to murder Philpott and co.

    So, how will you dispense your vigilante justice (because it's not a job and it couldn't possibly be about the money - it's "justice", right?) and how will you ensure you remain at liberty after the crime?

    I eagerly await your reply. And remember, as you said - it's all about having the stomach for justice - I'm sure the latter bobbins about it being a job was just a slip up (in the excitement of it all) on your part...
    Read back there for a start and kindly point out where i personally called out for Shameless Mick and his cohorts to die.:rolleyes: They should be locked away for as long as they are breathing so they can think every day of the monstrous act of crime they committed.
    Also if the death penalty was an option by law in the case how could it be classed as vigilante justice? Read back on the history of your home nation of England and you will find that the hangmen were always paid very well to do a dirty job and went about their business with no issue.

    Now if the death penalty was a viable option in this case i would go for the lethal injection as the means of making sure the accused slipped out of this life with as much dignity as possible in the situation.

    I also put it to you that you seem to suffer from sever physiological issues concerning the views of other people on justice which leads to you building up fantasy thoughts on the views of other people. You should really get that checked out if it is preventing you sleep at night.


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    #386
    RayCon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭RayCon


    mathepac wrote: »
    The legal classification of pizza (irrespective of sauces or toppings) as a vegetable would be another.

    off topic I know ... but WTF ? :eek:


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    #387
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    old hippy wrote: »
    I wouldn't. There's no such thing as a real man.
    It seems you lacked any male role models in your life which is sad for you but no reason to sneer at posters who have had a role model willing to show them right from wrong.


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    #388
    SantryRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭SantryRed


    Thread title should be changed.


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    #389
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    Daily Mail are going to town on the story that benefit culture made Phillpott do it.


    FFS, he was a complete psycho with no empathy and an inability to see past his own wants.

    He also exhibited violent behaviour long before he was ever on benefits- he stabbed an ex girlfriend 23 times (attempted murder) while he was in the army.


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    #390
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    Yes, old hippy I would carry out their execution. If you can prove to me who is better of with them living and taking money from a stretched system to keep then locked up then I might change my mind, but they killed six kids to try and get custody of five more so they could get more benefits.


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    #391
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    ^It costs more to execute someone than to keep them in prison

    Not to mention, the state killing its own citizens...not a great thing to be doing...


This discussion has been closed.
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