Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-03-2013 02:40AM

starlings wrote: »

that's what I meant.

OK, I'm not an Irish language enthusiast but like feargale I'm stuck in no man's land. I did try to raise the point that the State is obliged to provide services to native Irish speakers - necessities such as medicine and law - and yes, I know some people will take the absolute p1ss by using translation as a delay tactic or moneyspinner but that doesn't mean we should isolate people who live and think in Irish. I'm all for economising the provision of such services as long as they can remain efficient for the people who need them.

If it's practical, yes, no problem. If it's not, then why should it make a differemce? Best man for the job. If an certain region has a need for bilingual cops, be all means, post a few bilingual cops there. There should be enough of them on the force already without needing to hire new ones in. If not, find out who's willing and send them on the course. But not every single of them. And certainly no "we think you'd make an excellent cop, but we're going with this inferior candidate because he has Irish" crap. Just in case it's on the agenda.

The methods of teaching Irish in schools, indeed the question of whether Irish should be taught in schools at all, is a completely separate matter, and I wonder if the experience of this has coloured some views to the point where the actual living breathing Irish speakers are left out of the argument completely?

It is. Irish speakers are of course welcome - nay, encouraged - to participare because, in the threads that it was the issue, very few constructive points were made by the camp.

IMHO it shouldn't be a mandatory subject in schools, and the "you're anti-Irish/racist" jibes thrown around on this thread are infuriating not just because they are unreasonable and rude but because they're an own goal.

I'll leave this for the relevant people (i.e. Coles, An Coilean, Laoch na Mona, et al) to comment on.

opti0nal · 21-03-2013 08:49AM

Coles wrote: »

Debating like Indians.:rolleyes:

This looks like a racist statement.

Coles · 21-03-2013 09:23AM

Wibbs wrote: »

You were the one who reckoned our literacy rates were down to the large number of Eartern Europeans who arrived in recent years. Hmmm prejudice?

Oh Sweet Jesus.

It's not prejudice. It's maths.

I have said that the decline in our English language literacy rate over recent years is probably because of the influx of Eastern Europeans who aren't fluent in the language.

How is that prejudice? It's simple maths. Think about it for a moment.

Let's assume that Irish people have a higher English language literacy rate than Eastern European people. Is that a wild assumption? It certainly isn't. We've already established that all 'native' Irish people are fluent in the language and they use it on a daily basis. Let's assume a literacy rate of 90%.

And what about the Eastern Europeans? They weren't brought up speaking the language at home, They don't speak English as a first language and their literacy rates could be expected to be lower thatn the Irish rate? Let's assume an English Language literacy rate of 20%.

Right? Still with me?

Now let's look at what happens to the literacy rate when you mix the two populations. Let's look at a room of 100 Irish people. 90 of them have good English language literacy, 10 of them don't (90% literacy). Then 10 Eastern Europeans enter the room. 2 of them have good English language literacy, 8 of them don't (20% literacy).

So what just happened to the literacy rate in the room? There are now 110 people in the room and 18 of them have poor English language literacy. 92 have good English language literacy. The Literacy rate has declined from 90% to 83.6%.

Get it? Now, I don't expect any of the gang to let this go without a challenge, but it'll reflect very badly on their intelligence if they don't.

Leftist · 21-03-2013 09:26AM

Coles wrote: »

Oh Sweet Jesus.

It's not prejudice. It's maths.

I have said that the decline in our English language literacy rate over recent years is probably because of the influx of Eastern Europeans who aren't fluent in the language.

How is that prejudice? It's simple maths. Think about it for a moment.

Let's assume that Irish people have a higher English language literacy rate than Polish people. Is that a wild assumption? It certainly isn't. We've already established that all 'native' Irish people are fluent in the language and they use it on a daily basis. Let's assume a literacy rate of 90%.

And what about the Eastern Europeans? They weren't brought up speaking the language at home, They don't speak English as a first language and their literacy rates could be expected to be lower that the Irish rate? Let's assume an English Language literacy rate of 20%.

Right? Still with me?

Now let's look at what happens to the literacy rate when you mix the two populations. Let's look at a room of 100 Irish people. 90 of them have good English language literacy, 10 of them don't (90% literacy). Then 10 Eastern Europeans enter the room. 2 of them have good English language literacy, 8 of them don't (20% literacy).

So what just happened to the literacy rate in the room? There are now 110 people in the room and 18 of them have poor English language literacy. 92 have good English language literacy. The Literacy rate has declined from 90% to 83.6%.

Get it?

I would expect the English language literacy rate to improve very quickly as the new migrants develop their language skills.

the key word here is 'assume'

I was be startled if you had anything to back this up with. You've come to a conclusion without having any evidence to back it up.

Horrendous post. Absolutely embarrassing.

Coles · 21-03-2013 09:30AM

Leftist wrote: »

the key word here is 'assume'

I was be startled if you had anything to back this up with. You've come to a conclusion without having any evidence to back it up.

Horrendous post. Absolutely embarrassing.

Are you on the school bus? I really hope so.

Leftist · 21-03-2013 09:36AM

Coles wrote: »

Are you on the school bus? I really hope so.

fantastic retort. Coming from someone who plucks numbers out of thin air to reinforce some ridiculous theory.

15% of polish people tip at 85% of the normal rate of irish people, if we divide this by 2 zzzzzzzzzzzz

Coles · 21-03-2013 09:41AM

Wibbs and the gang will be along shortly to give you some 'thanks' for that contribution.

See you around folks.

Leftist · 21-03-2013 09:46AM

Coles wrote: »

Wibbs and the gang will be along shortly to give you some 'thanks' for that contribution.

See you around folks.

running off because you're caught talking rubbish.

back up your stats and have some self respect in your pieball theories.

Polish kids are killing our children's future etc.

Coles · 21-03-2013 09:59AM

Leftist wrote: »

Polish kids are killing our children's future etc.

Eh? It doesn't have any impact on 'our children's future'.

Wibbs · 21-03-2013 10:12AM

Leftist wrote: »

Polish kids are killing our children's future etc.

And swans L, don't forget the swans.

Coles · 21-03-2013 10:19AM

Wibbs wrote: »

And swans L, don't forget the swans.

This has nothing to do with swans.

Now, back to the simple maths. Post #634.

LordSutch · 21-03-2013 12:07PM

Scrap the Commissioner and bring the translators back from their gravy train in Brussels - We don't need them!

However, it would be a crime to see the Irish language die, and I just hope going forward that logic will dictate that any grandios plans to have us all speaking Irish are to be stamped out. Irish will never be anything than a 'niche' language in this country, and for that reason it should not be funded in a way that befits our 1st spoken language - English.

Coles · 21-03-2013 12:17PM

LordSutch wrote: »

However, it would be a crime to see the Irish language die, and I just hope going forward that logic will dictate that any grandios plans to have us all speaking Irish are to be stamped out.

:eek: What plans?!

ZeitgeistGlee · 21-03-2013 01:34PM

Coles wrote: »

This has nothing to do with swans.

Now, back to the simple maths. Post #634.

There's something simple here all right Coles but it's not your maths. :rolleyes:

21-03-2013 01:50PM

I know boards doesn't do facts, but an extract from a report "intercultural education, primary challanges Dublin 15"
http://www.bap.ie/dloads/intercultural_education_report.pdf

Irish kids were a very small minority of those is receipt of English language in primary schools, 55 out of a total of 2084.

Appendix H: Country of origin of Pupils as reported in ELS Applications

Countries Number
Ireland 55
U.K. 2
Remainder E.U. 15 33
Romania 280
Poland 124
Remainder of E.U. 152
Europe: Other states 234
Total Europe 880
Nigeria 574
Congo 74
Other 196
Sub-total Africa 844
Middle East 37
India 42
Pakistan 87
Afghanistan 12
Sub-Total 178
China 40
Phillipines 80
Asia: Other 27
Sub-Total: Asia 147
North America 3
South America: 4
Sub-total: Americas 7
NATIONALITY UNKNOWN 28
Overall Total 2,084

Canard · 21-03-2013 02:29PM

Still doesnt explain your Indians remark or your British stereotyping. You're racist, and in a minority, it's hilarious that you have the nerve to call anyone here racist. And implying they're acting like kids? Hello? Has anyone else made as many personal digs as you? Didnt think so. You can insult the intelligence of posters all you like, doesn't make you look any smarter or help your side of the debate.

Wibbs · 21-03-2013 02:30PM

Ehh different poster Patchy~

Canard · 21-03-2013 02:50PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Ehh different poster Patchy~

Whatcha mean? It was at Coles' post but I couldn't get the quote in on my phone. Sorry if it looked like it was at the above poster!

Wibbs · 21-03-2013 02:58PM

There's me P, wrong again. As per...

Coles · 21-03-2013 04:32PM

I'm starting to think that your difficulties with the language has nothing to do with attitude after all!

So where are we. Wibbs and the gang can now accept the point I was making about English language literacy. Fine. We'll leave that there, shall we? It's actually not that important but I think it sheds a bit of light on the cognitive hurdles that people put in their own path when they disrespect another person's opinion. Me too, sure, but I'm dealing with it. And if anyone gets a chance to explain the maths thing to 'Leftist' you'll be doing us all a favour.

Is it worth diverting this thread back on topic to explore some of the actual State expense in supporting the Irish language? Maybe we could compare it to other State expenditure? Defense? Arts? Bank Bail-outs? Government advisers and PR contracts? Security costs and pensions of former Taoisigh (that's Irish for 'Prime Ministers') and other government Ministers?

I think we'll find the support is not all that significant. Also let's keep in mind the fact that people who have a good attitude towards the language typically are better educated and will therefore pay more taxes than the rest of you.

clairefontaine · 21-03-2013 04:36PM

I have come to the conclusion that the state does not want the people to be Irish speaking, if they did they would turn all schools into Irish schools and make all government documentation, including forms to fill out, done in Irish.

The policy is expensive tokenism towards some kind of nostalgia but they prefer the people to be English speaking.

marienbad · 21-03-2013 04:37PM

Coles wrote: »

I'm starting to think that your difficulties with the language has nothing to do with attitude after all!

So where are we. Wibbs and the gang can now accept the point I was making about English language literacy. Fine. We'll leave that there, shall we? It's actually not that important but I think it sheds a bit of light on the cognitive hurdles that people put in their own path when they disrespect another person's opinion. Me too, sure, but I'm dealing with it. And if anyone gets a chance to explain the maths thing to 'Leftist' you'll be doing us all a favour.

Is it worth diverting this thread back on topic to explore some of the actual State expense in supporting the Irish language? Maybe we could compare it to other State expenditure? Defense? Arts? Bank Bail-outs? Government advisers and PR contracts? Security costs and pensions of former Taoisigh (that's Irish for 'Prime Ministers') and other government Ministers?

I think we'll find the support is not all that significant. Also let's keep in mind the fact that people who have a good attitude towards the language typically are better educated and will therefore pay more taxes than the rest of you.

Lets compare then, and lets make it total costs. So since you raised it can you provide the figures ?

Coles · 21-03-2013 04:43PM

marienbad wrote: »

Lets compare then, and lets make it total costs. So since you raised it can you provide the figures ?

You guys wouldn't trust them. I'd be attacked and sneered at for 3 pages.

Maybe later.

Sierra 117 · 21-03-2013 04:52PM

So you only have a problem with sneering when it's directed at you, but not when you were sneering throughout this thread.

marienbad · 21-03-2013 04:58PM

Coles wrote: »

You guys wouldn't trust them. I'd be attacked and sneered at for 3 pages.

Maybe later.

Maybe we might maybe we might not, just source them and there should'nt be a problem.

You raised the possibility so follow through on it .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-03-2013 05:05PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the state does not want the people to be Irish speaking, if they did they would turn all schools into Irish schools and make all government documentation, including forms to fill out, done in Irish.

The policy is expensive tokenism towards some kind of nostalgia but they prefer the people to be English speaking.

The teaching of kids in English is tokenism? You mean common sense, surely! Or have I misread the post again?

The documentation is already in Irish.

clairefontaine · 21-03-2013 05:07PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The teaching of kids in English is tokenism? You mean common sense, surely! Or have I misread the post again?

The documentation is already in Irish.

No I meant how they teach Irish is tokenistic. The project has obviously failed but they keep doing it.

But if you HAD to fill out the forms in Irish people would have to learn it.

marienbad · 21-03-2013 05:23PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

No I meant how they teach Irish is tokenistic. The project has obviously failed but they keep doing it.

But if you HAD to fill out the forms in Irish people would have to learn it.

But you are not advocating that as a serious policy surely ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-03-2013 05:26PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

No I meant how they teach Irish is tokenistic. The project has obviously failed but they keep doing it.

But if you HAD to fill out the forms in Irish people would have to learn it.

I'd agree with the first part, but I don't think it's intetnional

Why should you HAVE to fill out the forms in Irish?

Why should peopole HAVE to learn it?

The whole point of the exercise is to allow people to choose the lanaguge they deal with the State in as much as is practical, you're ideas go aaginst this. Ironically, the commisioner would be forced to step in.

clairefontaine · 21-03-2013 05:34PM

marienbad wrote: »

But you are not advocating that as a serious policy surely ?

No I am not.

What I am saying is that if they wanted the nation to speak Irish they would use different policies.

They obviously don't want it.

Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

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