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Life outside BR

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    #392
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    seanand wrote: »
    schmidt and conor oshea are the likely candidates
    Are they though?
    Is Schmidt going to stay in Ireland?
    Contract up with Leinster at end of season. His son does the Leaving in june, another kid already back in nz. Very likely to be going back to NZ esp if a super 15 role comes up.
    Why would Conor o Shea leave his current role with Quins? He also has worked a lot with the english union and their academies and been director of rfu academies, he has director of english institute of sport.
    Cant see him leaving his current roles
    i mean he was picked and they clearly knew not to back him for the kicks at goal and i dont know why kearney wasnt practicing during the two weeks as he has kicked at a highish level would of also taking the pressure off jackson.
    Thats an irish problem in general and was a clear tactic. Up to players on the field to change that. Kearney has not kicked often enough and its an irish problem in general. We dont look to other players apart from outhalfs as kickers
    you kinda contradict yourself here saying he is poor but shouldnt be dropped. think Sob would be more effective and more useful than on the flank, plus chris henry is a fine openside
    That isnt a contradiction. Most of the team were poor in the weekends game but i dont think they all should be dropped.
    Sean O Brien is more effective and useful on the flank.
    court is havnt a good season maybe not good enough for internation level but i def believe the killer has passed him out into 2nd place.
    Court is having a good season and is good enough for international level. He got cast into the wilderness for a long period after the game in twickenham where he played at tighthead and was manshamed but that was before 23 man squads and that isnt an issue anymore
    yes and i will never forget the good times as a munster man but it is sad to see the shell of the player he was still play on, and i def dont believe older players can be played in the forwards and hidden easier
    Yes players can get away playing longer dispite deficits in their game in the forwards than in the backline. Much easier in the forwards where you can hide by doing "unseen work" etc.


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    #393
    FewFew
    Registered Users Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭FewFew


    ormond lad wrote: »
    Why would Conor o Shea leave his current role with Quins? He also has worked a lot with the english union and their academies and been director of rfu academies, he has director of english institute of sport.
    Cant see him leaving his current roles


    Yes players can get away playing longer dispite deficits in their game in the forwards than in the backline. Much easier in the forwards where you can hide by doing "unseen work" etc.

    I dunno, how many times are you offered the Ireland job and if you turned it down, could you then comment on the team's performance each match, knowing that you had the opportunity to implement the changes.


    Ah now, all that "unseen work" isn't hiding, it's the reason why you want all your BR forwards to have high technique.
    If you're in the backs and you get slow, goodbye. Yes, you might read the game amazingly well or maybe you're a top kicker, but for the average back, you get old, you get slow, you get out-paced by a young lad.
    Forwards are a different animal altogether. First off your strength declines at a later age than your pace, but then you've got the amount of technique that's involved in the roles. Why do we suffer in the scrum? It's not down to a lack of strength, sure we've fine strapping slabs o' beef on the pitch, it's down to technique. Go out to a local club on any weekend and I bet you'll see some old prop school some young fella who can probably bench-press the other lad but has no idea how to apply his power.
    seanand wrote: »
    schmidt and conor oshea are the likely candidates

    Never knew O'Shea would be a candidate. Not contradicting you, just displaying my ignorance. Only know him as a pundit, thought he had some club role across the water, but didn't know he was up there manager wise.


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    #394
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    Fewcifur wrote: »
    I dunno, how many times are you offered the Ireland job and if you turned it down, could you then comment on the team's performance each match, knowing that you had the opportunity to implement the changes.
    Maybe. He is well secured in roles in england. Cant see him leaving them even for the irish job. Yes i can see him commenting on the team and performances even if he turned the job down. Wouldnt be an issue
    Ah now, all that "unseen work" isn't hiding, it's the reason why you want all your BR forwards to have high technique.
    BR is BR not real rugby though. Talking about BR and players having high technique is irrelevant to this discussion
    If you're in the backs and you get slow, goodbye. Yes, you might read the game amazingly well or maybe you're a top kicker, but for the average back, you get old, you get slow, you get out-paced by a young lad.
    Rubbish. O Driscoll has lost yards the past few years do we say goodbye no as he is such an intelligent player.
    If you are a smart enough player losing some of your pace as you get older isnt an issue.
    Why do we suffer in the scrum? It's not down to a lack of strength, sure we've fine strapping slabs o' beef on the pitch, it's down to technique. Go out to a local club on any weekend and I bet you'll see some old prop school some young fella who can probably bench-press the other lad but has no idea how to apply his power.
    No idea why we suffer in scrums but Healy and Ross have good technique as do Killer and Fitzpatrick
    Never knew O'Shea would be a candidate. Not contradicting you, just displaying my ignorance. Only know him as a pundit, thought he had some club role across the water, but didn't know he was up there manager wise.
    He has been director of rugby with quins for several years. He's been involved a lot with quins, rfu, english sports. He has been named as somebody people would like as coach but more than likely when kidney goes at end of season he will not be looked at


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    #395
    seanand
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭seanand


    the way i read it is heaslip has been poor fullstop and i would agree with that. i think Sob would be a more natural 8 hes def not a 7.

    i dont know its it a possibility to get either schimdt or oshea but i do fully believe oshea wants the job sometime in the future anyway. have you noticed how he picks his words well and makes sure never to slate a player.

    drico may have lost yards yet still has plenty pace to play on. i think we lose out on the scrums to other teams has to come down to weight in 2nd row and technique behind the front row


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    #396
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    seanand wrote: »
    the way i read it is heaslip has been poor fullstop and i would agree with that. i think Sob would be a more natural 8 hes def not a 7.

    i dont know its it a possibility to get either schimdt or oshea but i do fully believe oshea wants the job sometime in the future anyway. have you noticed how he picks his words well and makes sure never to slate a player.

    drico may have lost yards yet still has plenty pace to play on. i think we lose out on the scrums to other teams has to come down to weight in 2nd row and technique behind the front row
    If he was a more natural 8, he would play there. He plays on the flank more often because he is better there. Look at his performances that won him european player of the year on the flank.
    Not really. Which players(behind the front row) technique is not good enough?
    Maybe he picks his words carefully because he doesnt want to rely on using sensationalism like hook regularly does


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    #397
    corny
    Registered Users Posts: 7,757 ✭✭✭corny


    I'm going to steal Jackass' post (hope he forgives me) from a recent thread on the Rugby forum to illustrate, for those that don't agree, where Kidney lies in the pecking order.
    [Jackass] wrote: »
    1/ Joe Schmidt
    2/ Warrenn Gatland
    3/ Graham Henry
    4/ Conor O'Shea
    5/ Nick Mallet
    6/ Vern Cotter
    7/ Jake White
    8/ Mike Ruddock
    9/ Michael Cheika
    10/ Eric Elwood
    11/ Eddie O'Sullivan (!!)
    12/ Kurt McQuicklan
    13/ Matt Williams
    14/ Clive Woodward
    .
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    .
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    .
    .
    .
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    .
    .
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    .
    .
    1496/ Renew Kidneys contract

    What he neglected to mention was number 1495 was Dana!


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    #398
    seanand
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭seanand


    nick mallet and eric elwood are out a contract atm, whos matt william?

    he won the european player of the year due to open play and ball carrying nothing to do with playing now no.8 he would hopefull get more ball in hand and if you want to leave him at 7 then chris henry has plenty experience at no.8.

    well we just dont have that big scrumaging 2nd row at the moment that most nations have(stevenson at ulster would be a prime example of this as an irish player) most our 2nd rows could just as easily play flanker while we reap the rewards in open play we cant have it everyway.

    good point maybe he does but then maybe he doesnt. also hook was extremely bad the weekend, while i like and enjoy his comments most time the weekend i just couldnt listen to him


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    #399
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    seanand wrote: »
    nick mallet and eric elwood are out a contract atm, whos matt william?

    he won the european player of the year due to open play and ball carrying nothing to do with playing now no.8 he would hopefull get more ball in hand and if you want to leave him at 7 then chris henry has plenty experience at no.8.

    well we just dont have that big scrumaging 2nd row at the moment that most nations have(stevenson at ulster would be a prime example of this as an irish player) most our 2nd rows could just as easily play flanker while we reap the rewards in open play we cant have it everyway.

    good point maybe he does but then maybe he doesnt. also hook was extremely bad the weekend, while i like and enjoy his comments most time the weekend i just couldnt listen to him
    Not to be dismissive or anything but how do you not know who matt williams is?
    He has coached or helped coach Leinster, Ulster and Scotland. He has coached super 12 teams and top 14 teams
    Eric Elwood isnt good enough to coach Ireland and due to the way the IRFU is ran he will never get a shot or even be looked at.
    Most certainly not most of our 2nd rows could easily play flanker. Not many can at all.


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    #400
    satory
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭satory


    seanand wrote: »
    good point maybe he does but then maybe he doesnt. also hook was extremely bad the weekend, while i like and enjoy his comments most time the weekend i just couldnt listen to him

    I've effectively given up watching Rugby on RTE because I just can't stand Hooks need for attention. I'll only have it on for the beginning of RTE's coverage of Ireland games, and then I turn over to the BBC.

    Mallett would be probably in my opinion the most realistic choice... Elwood wont be given the time of day and I don't think O'Shea would leave Quinns at the moment, their still going strong and he is still learning his trade as a DOR over in England.

    Schmidt would be a good choice, but then he might also be heading home, who knows???


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    #401
    Zagato
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭Zagato


    satory wrote: »
    I don't think O'Shea would leave Quinns at the moment, their still going strong and he is still learning his trade as a DOR over in England.

    Worth bearing in mind that Quins qualified top for the Heineken Cup QFs and are leading the premiership currently albeit by a point. Now I don't imagine it would be easy to beat Clermont away in a Semi, but nevertheless there is the possibility of results falling the way of Declan Kidney having to leave his post in 6-12 weeks time and O'Shea looking like the top club/provincial coach in the northern hemisphere -it would surely be a lot about who can pay him best then, as if he did not succeed as a national coach, he would not be short of jobs to go to over in the England, and he strikes me as a pretty ambitious guy.


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    #402
    FewFew
    Registered Users Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭FewFew


    ormond lad wrote: »

    BR is BR not real rugby though. Talking about BR and players having high technique is irrelevant to this discussion
    Yeah, BR isn't real rugby, but it does illustrate a point. If you don't
    ormond lad wrote: »
    Rubbish. O Driscoll has lost yards the past few years do we say goodbye no as he is such an intelligent player.
    If you are a smart enough player losing some of your pace as you get older isnt an issue.
    That is in fact exactly what I said, with BOD in particular in mind.
    ormond lad wrote: »
    No idea why we suffer in scrums but Healy and Ross have good technique as do Killer and Fitzpatrick
    Must be all that "unseen work"
    ormond lad wrote: »
    He has been director of rugby with quins for several years. He's been involved a lot with quins, rfu, english sports. He has been named as somebody people would like as coach but more than likely when kidney goes at end of season he will not be looked at

    I dunno, hearing more and more pundits say his name, albeit with doubts that he'd take it, as you said.


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    #403
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    Fewcifur wrote: »
    Yeah, BR isn't real rugby, but it does illustrate a point. If you don't
    Its fairly clear the points ive been making points but if you cant see that then :rolleyes:. Talking about BR and players with "high technique" is a load of crap if trying to put it into analogys about players in the 6nations.
    That is in fact exactly what I said, with BOD in particular in mind.
    Where did you say that?

    Must be all that "unseen work"
    Non sequiter.
    Healy and Ross technique in the scrum is good and Kilcoyne and Fitzpatrick are the same. Court is prob our best loosehead in terms of scrummaging.
    Talking about BR and saying oh but in BR you do this is rubbish when talking about real rugby and its quite silly of you to say i havent been making a point. If you cant see the points ive been making then fair enough but its silly to say i have not been making any points in my posts


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    #404
    seanand
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭seanand


    ya fewi :P


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    #405
    eoferrall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭eoferrall


    In fairness pace is less important in the forwards. some can be slow all their career and so as they age the loss of skills due to age are not as pronounced as a forward, depends on position obviously. but second and front row can be excellent players without pace or any age related deteriorating skills, in fact they are much more based on technique and experience than other positions.

    As a back pace is a key component, lose that and a massive weapon in your arsenal is gone.

    This is what fewcifer is trying to say...albeit with a computer game reference.

    so you are essentially arguing the same thing. just over descriptions, so chill out boys!!


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    #406
    FewFew
    Registered Users Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭FewFew


    Fewcifur wrote: »
    If you're in the backs and you get slow, goodbye. Yes, you might read the game amazingly well or maybe you're a top kicker, but for the average back, you get old, you get slow, you get out-paced by a young lad.
    Think I said it right there. Didn't mention BOD, but had him in mind.

    Now I have to copy and paste your last bit because you commented in the quote for some reason...
    Fewcifur wrote: »
    Yeah, BR isn't real rugby, but it does illustrate a point. If you don't
    Its fairly clear the points ive been making points but if you cant see that then . Talking about BR and players with "high technique" is a load of crap if trying to put it into analogys about players in the 6nations.
    That is in fact exactly what I said, with BOD in particular in mind.
    Where did you say that?

    Must be all that "unseen work"
    Non sequiter.
    Healy and Ross technique in the scrum is good and Kilcoyne and Fitzpatrick are the same. Court is prob our best loosehead in terms of scrummaging.

    Well, first I must apologise, it seems part of my message was deleted or replaced or whatever. I didn't mean to stop sharp with "If you don't."

    I can see all your points. It's the BR forum, so I was using BR to illustrate a widely held wisdom that there's more technique in the forwards game.

    We're discussing the point of forwards being able to "hide" for longer.
    Here are my points in case you missed them.

    1. Pace is a bigger part of a backs game, technique and strength is a bigger part of a forwards game.

    2. Pace deteriorates faster than strength, and technique is like riding a bike.

    3. Backs don't last as long because one of their primary attributes deteriorates faster. In contrast, technique improves with experience.
    ormond lad wrote: »
    Talking about BR and saying oh but in BR you do this is rubbish when talking about real rugby and its quite silly of you to say i havent been making a point. If you cant see the points ive been making then fair enough but its silly to say i have not been making any points in my posts

    I can see your points. Let's talk real rugby. I played as tight-head for years. When you're in that position you quickly realise that most non-forwards (or even non-props) have no idea what goes on in that end of a scrum. It's very hard to explain and just as hard to understand without having any experience. Putting "unseen work" in quotation marks sounds like you're dismissing it, but most likely it's just ignorance of what goes on in the pack.

    Technique is everything in a scrum. If our pack had as good technique as you say, we wouldn't be constantly questing after a decent scrum. A much smaller pack with good technique can easily take apart a far larger but inexperienced one.

    I'm not sure where I said you weren't making points, I assume that's in reference to the end of my first line, and again I've no idea what happened there, because that went on for another paragraph originally :D


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    #407
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    Fewcifur wrote: »
    Think I said it right there. Didn't mention BOD, but had him in mind.

    Now I have to copy and paste your last bit because you commented in the quote for some reason...
    Commented in the post as i was commenting on each point individually and going on about Blackout and saying it is v relevant to real rugby is rubbish.
    Like saying "Pace is a bigger part of a backs game, technique and strength is a bigger part of a forwards game" is rubbish.
    Backs need very high technique and as much as forwards. Look at rucking/tackling etc. Do backs not need as much technique in those aspects as forwards. Do backrows not need to be quick and be able to get around the pitch to do the work at the breakdown

    Anyway Irish team for tomorrow evenings game
    15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/44)
    14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
    13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/123)
    12 - Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/1)
    11 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster/37)
    10 - Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
    9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/17)
    1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/37)
    2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/65)
    3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/27)
    4 - Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/8)
    5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/26)
    6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/12)
    7 - Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster/25)
    8 - Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/55) (capt)
    Replacements:
    16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/24)
    17 - David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/5)
    18 - Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
    19 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/93)
    20 - Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster/3)
    21 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/49)
    22 - Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) *
    23 - Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/24)


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    #408
    eoferrall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭eoferrall


    ormond lad wrote: »
    Commented in the post as i was commenting on each point individually and going on about Blackout and saying it is v relevant to real rugby is rubbish.
    Like saying "Pace is a bigger part of a backs game, technique and strength is a bigger part of a forwards game" is rubbish.
    Backs need very high technique and as much as forwards. Look at rucking/tackling etc. Do backs not need as much technique in those aspects as forwards. Do backrows not need to be quick and be able to get around the pitch to do the work at the breakdown

    I think you are missing the point about positions KEY skills.

    Who cares if Ross takes 5mins to run the length of the pitch, his PRIMARY role is to scrummage and do it well, ie have sufficient technique in scrummaging.

    A backs PRIMARY role is to cover ground quickly, be it in defence or attack, get to were the space is to plug/exploit etc. If a back takes 5mins to run the length of the pitch it does not matter how good they are in all other areas, they are useless.
    ormond lad wrote: »
    Anyway Irish team for tomorrow evenings game
    15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/44)
    14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
    13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/123)
    12 - Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/1)
    11 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster/37)
    10 - Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
    9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/17)
    1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/37)
    2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/65)
    3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/27)
    4 - Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/8)
    5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/26)
    6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/12)
    7 - Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster/25)
    8 - Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/55) (capt)
    Replacements:
    16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/24)
    17 - David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/5)
    18 - Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
    19 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/93)
    20 - Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster/3)
    21 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/49)
    22 - Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) *
    23 - Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/24)

    decent team, with impact from the bench for once in all positions (bar DOC). not much excitement building for this match though. will be keen to see Jackson kick on (pun intended..) and up his performance. and also to see if Madigan gets to come on and have a run more than 30 seconds.


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    #409
    seanand
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭seanand


    i would of dropped earls instead of mcfadden and played gilroy left wing. i wonder will mcfadden be kicking from the off. also stephen archer on the bench, he looks like he could be good but not even up to heineken cup standard yet


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    #410
    eoferrall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭eoferrall


    seanand wrote: »
    i would of dropped earls instead of mcfadden and played gilroy left wing. i wonder will mcfadden be kicking from the off. also stephen archer on the bench, he looks like he could be good but not even up to heineken cup standard yet

    didn't Gilroy fail fitness test? or did i dream that?


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    #411
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    eoferrall wrote: »
    I think you are missing the point about positions KEY skills.

    Who cares if Ross takes 5mins to run the length of the pitch, his PRIMARY role is to scrummage and do it well, ie have sufficient technique in scrummaging.

    A backs PRIMARY role is to cover ground quickly, be it in defence or attack, get to were the space is to plug/exploit etc. If a back takes 5mins to run the length of the pitch it does not matter how good they are in all other areas, they are useless.

    decent team, with impact from the bench for once in all positions (bar DOC). not much excitement building for this match though. will be keen to see Jackson kick on (pun intended..) and up his performance. and also to see if Madigan gets to come on and have a run more than 30 seconds.
    Not missing the point at all.
    A backs primary role is not to cover the ground quickly. If that was a backs primary role than fionn carr would have dozens of caps for ireland considering how quick he is. Depends on player to player basis and how teams use players
    Donnacha hasnt been bad this season at all and has provided some impact off the bench and starting in the absence of O Connell. Who would you have in his place anyway?
    seanand wrote: »
    i would of dropped earls instead of mcfadden and played gilroy left wing. i wonder will mcfadden be kicking from the off. also stephen archer on the bench, he looks like he could be good but not even up to heineken cup standard yet
    Earls has been fine. Dont think he deserves to be dropped. Dont think McFadden will kick from the off, Jackson will be trusted but a few missed shots at goal and McFadden will take over.
    Surprised Archer is on the bench but he's done ok at heineken cup level and is at that level already
    eoferrall wrote: »
    didn't Gilroy fail fitness test? or did i dream that?
    Gilroy out injured. Groin strain


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    #412
    seanand
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭seanand


    eoferrall wrote: »
    didn't Gilroy fail fitness test? or did i dream that?

    ah forgot about that.

    earls has been piss poor this season his forms been terrible but then with gilroy out im not sure i would of gone with fitzgerald ahead. trimble has been in great form lately aswell.


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    #413
    corny
    Registered Users Posts: 7,757 ✭✭✭corny


    seanand wrote: »
    i would of dropped earls instead of mcfadden and played gilroy left wing. i wonder will mcfadden be kicking from the off. also stephen archer on the bench, he looks like he could be good but not even up to heineken cup standard yet

    Its criminal what Earls did against Scotland but he can find a gap better than most in our side and at the minute we need that. But truth be told i'd have Luke Fitzgerald ahead of the lot of them and if everyone was fit Earls wouldn't make my 23.

    I'd say Jackson will take the kicks but if he misses his first one who knows. The panel on RTE will wet themselves if he has another poor day with the boot.

    France picking Michalak could be a positive because in the last few games he hasn't linked well with those around him and he unnecessarily tends to slow the game up. Parra is key for them once again.

    If they're in the mood they'll have far too much for us, at least until the 60th minute when the likes of Machenaud and Ducalcon come on and their level dips once again.


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    #414
    eoferrall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭eoferrall


    ormond lad wrote: »
    Not missing the point at all.
    A backs primary role is not to cover the ground quickly. If that was a backs primary role than fionn carr would have dozens of caps for ireland considering how quick he is. Depends on player to player basis and how teams use players
    Donnacha hasnt been bad this season at all and has provided some impact off the bench and starting in the absence of O Connell. Who would you have in his place anyway?

    but after your pace you have when you are at the right place can you do anything else? in carrs case no, average defender, good stepper but poor enough decision making.

    I don't see how you are not getting the point that forwards have the potential for playing older than backs? which was what the whole discussion was about and how it came to technique as a skill rather than a physical attribute like pace being more important for a forward. technique encompassing all types, from props to 2nd rows to back rows and the type of technique needed. surely this is evident as the common consensus is a prop only starts maturing after gaining skills and experience in late 20's. hence the surprise that healy is so good so young when he came in.

    I'd have no one currently fit in front of DOC, what I meant is that the others are all dynamic fast ball players that will benefit in the looser closing stages and potentially bring a big impact. DOC should be there, but wont bring same impact, won't be weakening team coming on but won't make/create a break etc. that's all I meant. should be on the bench, and did not mean to imply that he shouldn't. was just commenting on the impact we have off bench for first time in long time


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    #415
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    eoferrall wrote: »
    but after your pace you have when you are at the right place can you do anything else? in carrs case no, average defender, good stepper but poor enough decision making.

    I don't see how you are not getting the point that forwards have the potential for playing older than backs? which was what the whole discussion was about and how it came to technique as a skill rather than a physical attribute like pace being more important for a forward. technique encompassing all types, from props to 2nd rows to back rows and the type of technique needed. surely this is evident as the common consensus is a prop only starts maturing after gaining skills and experience in late 20's. hence the surprise that healy is so good so young when he came in.

    I'd have no one currently fit in front of DOC, what I meant is that the others are all dynamic fast ball players that will benefit in the looser closing stages and potentially bring a big impact. DOC should be there, but wont bring same impact, won't be weakening team coming on but won't make/create a break etc. that's all I meant. should be on the bench, and did not mean to imply that he shouldn't. was just commenting on the impact we have off bench for first time in long time
    I do get the point about forwards and playing older but a backs primary role is not covering the ground quickly. Depends on team/style team plays/position. Some teams play to different strengths.


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    #416
    eoferrall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭eoferrall


    ormond lad wrote: »
    I do get the point about forwards and playing older but a backs primary role is not covering the ground quickly. Depends on team/style team plays/position. Some teams play to different strengths.

    what is a backs primary role then? i can think of no other way of describing it. they create space in attack and put someone through it, some has to be there at the right time. need to cover large areas of pitch to not get stretched and quickly to prevent mismatches in defense etc. getting back to cover/collect an opposition kick, or following up your own kick. pace and covering ground is required in all areas of back play.


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    #417
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    eoferrall wrote: »
    what is a backs primary role then? i can think of no other way of describing it. they create space in attack and put someone through it, some has to be there at the right time. need to cover large areas of pitch to not get stretched and quickly to prevent mismatches in defense etc. getting back to cover/collect an opposition kick, or following up your own kick. pace and covering ground is required in all areas of back play.
    A backs primary role is not to cover the ground quickly i would say it is more to create and convert scoring opportunities whether that is quick or slow.


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    #418
    eoferrall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭eoferrall


    ormond lad wrote: »
    A backs primary role is not to cover the ground quickly i would say it is more to create and convert scoring opportunities whether that is quick or slow.

    what about defense? they have no part in defense? :eek:


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    #419
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    eoferrall wrote: »
    what about defense? they have no part in defense? :eek:
    :rolleyes: Of course they do but in the main if a sides backs can defend very well but cant score no matter what you will not keep picking them and you will choose players who can attack and score but who are not as good defenders


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    #420
    eoferrall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭eoferrall


    ormond lad wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Of course they do but in the main if a sides backs can defend very well but cant score no matter what you will not keep picking them and you will choose players who can attack and score but who are not as good defenders

    Good use of the roll eyes, adds weight to your argument/point.

    maybe they are picked because they are the better players? ie a better package. can attack and defend rather than just defend? ;)

    Anyway I am out this is in circles.


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    #421
    corny
    Registered Users Posts: 7,757 ✭✭✭corny


    Disappointed for the players today. You could see it meant a lot to them to get the win.

    We played smart rugby in the first half but the French upped the pressure in the second and it eventually told.

    SOB and Heaslip were excellent. Ryan and Marshall were very good too. Couldn't understand all the fuss about Murray though. He was solid and his kicks (apart from an absolute howler) were good but no way was he MOTM.

    PSA is taking the piss with the French public. Sheer stubbornness prevented him bringing on Trinh-Duc and making Freddie take the final kick, as if to justify his faith in him, was hilarious. They can do so much better.

    One more game with Kidney in charge.:cool:


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