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Comments

  • #182
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    Princess Peach wrote: »
    I suppose you also need to look at what kinds of threads these are. Its easy for someone to get upset in this kind of manner, in a discussion or debate thread. And I know there has been talks in this forum about the difference between what is bullying or what is someone just having a difference of opinion. And its expected things will get heated in some of these threads of sensitive topics. And I think if you post an opinion on a topic you can be expected for someone to think the opposite, and try to tear your post apart!

    I understand that. I know people will disagree with me and I don't have a problem with that. However it can still upset me. I don't think that's a reason to hit the x-button and never come back. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting upset at things. v0v


  • #183
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hi Guys,

    There is currently a thread on bullying running over in the feedback forum and the Admins would like as much input as possible.

    Please be sure to read the opening post :)

    Thanks


  • #184
    Little Acorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Little Acorn


    username123 wrote: »
    Ive only kind of found the Ladies Lounge recently, and I have learned some invaluable stuff!!!

    Overall I feel the mods do a good job of keeping things in order. I was disturbed by a recent post in this forum, where someone accused boards.ie of covering up bullying behaviour but I did not see the posts in question (they have been deleted) so cannot comment

    I was a bit confused by this also.
    Sorcha16
    Quite sickening that the Boards.ie approach to bullying is to delete the evidence and pretend it doesn't exist.

    Free reign to the favourites and issue warnings to anybody outside the clique. Disappointing that such a prolific forum in this modern age can't find the staff to stamp out these disgusting practices.

    l understand now why Ellsbells closed her account because the pack mentality around here absolutely stinks and of course in typical Boards fashion, I don't expect this post to last too long but I will never tolerate bullying in the covert, silent style that secretly permeates these forums.

    It's shameful, needless and exclusionary and not something one would expect to be condoned, never mind practiced around here and it's high time something was done about it.

    Sorcha

    Sorcha16 was referring to Ellsbell's post in the thread Grace - is there a deficiency?
    From the top of my head Ellsbells post (which is now deleted from the records) said something along the lines of,
    "sure then why don't we all swear like dockers, drink like fish, dress trashy, and have abortions as a form of contraception? That seem's to be the only acceptable view here, and I for 1 am sick of the ganging up/bullying here if you have a different opinion, so I'm out. Adios." and then she closed her account. (just a rough idea from my memory)

    Sorcha16 replied to this post saying that she wholeheartedly agreed with it.

    A mod said that all off topic ranting had been deleted, but these were the only two posts I noticed being deleted whilst other kinda sniping posts remained on the thread.

    Sorcha was at first infracted and told not to post again in the thread, which I think was because she gave a personal dig to Eve Dublin about being "ungracious" but Sorcha then made the argument that why was it only her infracted, when she saw other posts allowed that she deemed off topic -I don't know tbh, just trying to guess what Sorcha meant by saying, "Free reign to the favourites and issue warnings to anybody outside the clique."
    Sorcha was then banned for posting this after being warned not to.

    Another poster called doccbh who posted that banning Sorcha for her post was heavyhanded and gave Boards a bad reputation was also subsequently banned for making that post.

    I totally get why the infractions were handed out and even the bans because I know personal digs are wrong, and problems with a moderators decision are meant to be dealt with through pm or a feedback thread like this.
    I can also see that Ellsbell was having a bit of an off topic rant in that post, but she seemed like she had just reached the end of her tether and snapped. I recall seeing posts from her before where she felt like she was always ganged up on, I think it was something to do with parenting topics. I don't know if she was being bullied in private or not, I think it may have been just that it seemed like to her that the posters in the ladies lounge always seemed to have a different opinion to her, and this may have led to her feeling ganged up on.
    I never witnessed personal abuse to her or anything like that, but of course I am not a frequent poster in here so I wouldn't know.

    I think the mods have a very hard job and probably always try their best to be fair. Wibbs in particular is my favourite mod on Boards and one of my favourite posters in general too. I don't think any of the mods would knowingly let bullying occur. However as somebody pointed out earlier maybe it is a subjective thing, and that to some people a train of people just posting to disagree with you is bullying or excluding behaviour?

    There does sometimes seem to be a "general consensus" about some topics in the Ladies Lounge. There are certain replies that are guaranteed to get about 20 thanks, and other different opinions that are guaranteed to get at least 10 people lining up to post to disagree and also getting thanks for their disagreement. This could possibly make it seem like it's not a "safe place to post" if you already know that a large % of the regular posters are just going to jump on your post to tell you how much they disagree with you.
    I think this is probably the same for every forum in the world though where there are regular posters and not much that can be done about it - and probably not much actually wrong with it either because everyone can post their opinion and if you happen to be in the minority opinion there's nothing bad about that as long as people don't get abusive to you for it.

    Anyways back on the topic of the accusation of bullying towards Ellsbell, as this is a feedback thread, I just wanted to say that I don't think it was a good idea to completely delete her post.
    I don't think it was wise because when people read Sorcha's post about Boards covering up bullying and hiding the evidence, it does seem very disturbing to people who did not see Ellsbells post, and it DOES make it look like Boards were trying to hide an accusation of bullying by deleting her last post.
    The mods message saying "we take bullying very seriously" should have been made in quoted response to Ellsbell's final post, and not just added into the post where Sorcha was getting banned for making the post about the bullying allegation.
    It just looks bad imo.

    That's my 2 cents! :)


  • #185
    Eve_Dublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,884 ✭✭✭Eve_Dublin


    Bullying happens but most of the time it's a difference of opinion.


    Sorcha called me ungracious because she dragged her feelings about me from a debate that was had in AH a while ago where emotions ran high. It was personal. I'm not a bully and I'm definitely not a favourite in here. I've been posting for 5 years and recieved my share of infractions and warnings over the years. There's a difference between bullying and having a very different opinion to someone. Ellsbell was the first to attack my opinion on that thread with bold letters and highlighting, ironically but when I do it, it's bullying? Hmmm. Ellsbell was provoking an argument.

    Sorcha took her side because of feelings she has towards me from a previous thread in AH and also because my opinions differ from hers. I have no problems with that, a lot of us have posters we don't get along with on here but calling me a bully...no. I won't take that.

    There was no bullying on that thread.

    It's a serious word to bandy around and not a nice thing to be called when it's not true and not justified. You need to provide solid evidence to back up such a serious accusation.


  • #186
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Little Acorn wrote: »
    Anyways back on the topic of the accusation of bullying towards Ellsbell, as this is a feedback thread, I just wanted to say that I don't think it was a good idea to completely delete her post.
    I don't think it was wise because when people read Sorcha's post about Boards covering up bullying and hiding the evidence, it does seem very disturbing to people who did not see Ellsbells post, and it DOES make it look like Boards were trying to hide an accusation of bullying by deleting her last post.

    Thanks for explaining what went on there.

    I agree with you re the posts being deleted. I did think it was disturbing to see Sorchas post and then notice that Ellbells had closed her account. But with the posts deleted there is no way to tell what went on.

    I think that its important to be open and public about such matters, things being hidden or deleted can cause suspicion alright.


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  • #187
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    OK folks points definitely taken but can we maybe move it to the general rather than the specific? *mod hat off* :)

    Teasing out the differences between ordinary difference of opinion, sniping even going towards bullying can be a tough one. Obvious intimidation etc is well... obvious so easy to spot/report/moderate, low level stuff isn't so easy. Throughout Boards I've seen it in all forms over the years. Some people see robust counterargument(doesn't even have to be robust) as bullying when (IMHO) it's not, unless it's consistently applied to one person.

    As for favourites? If I see anyone taking the piddle and affecting the community I'll call them on it, I don't care who they are or how much "support" they think they have. The other mods would be the same.

    That said I/we have to see it to action it so please report posts, report posts, report posts. and if ye get dodgy PM's report them too. Now bear in mind only admins can see reported private messages so the local mods may be out of the loop, so PMing us on the subject may not get much of a response.

    On the subject of cliques, even "pack mentality" you're going to get something of that evolving in any community or group. People tend to gravitate towards a community mind on some subjects. Usually the headwreck ones of course. :) And those who may disagree will tend to avoid posting or if they do may be more the kinda folks who will be more thick skinned or robust in their responses. Goes for most forums on Boards. EG outside the religious forums(and even in there often enough) religion and the religious are usually sneered at all the way up to open hostility, though the latter nearly always gets actioned. On the Politics forums you could argue a certain slant from the community(it would be a different vibe to Politics.ie for example) and yes on the Ladies Lounge you get "biases" in the community in certain subjects. TLL would in very general terms be coming from a younger, liberal, agnostic, pro choice, pro divorce etc vibe than other places on the interweb. That said it's pretty "middle of the road" too. Take feminism type threads. The locals will hop on sexist stuff from men(and women), but will also robustly come down on what one might describe as more hardline feminist thinking too. IMHO on that subject, while we may disagree individually, we're pretty equal and in the middle on the subject.

    On other subjects I don't know quite how we can change. Answers on a postcard please :) We should be able to lessen the guff mind you. Again reporting posts that look like ganging up is a major start. It's you lots forum not the mods(though we're allowed post and such:)) and you make the forum and you can change the forum if you can see areas that may need tweaking.

    On the subject of deleted posts, yes I can see the points raised and TBH I tend to agree. Maybe going forward we should only delete spam, obvious trolls and obvious insulting posts? That said sometimes we have to delete a few posts as the whole thread can be wrecked when someone or a couple of someones start questioning mod actions when they should have taken it to PM. A while back I've personally deleted over a page of such back and forth posts because it was wrecking the thread. In future if it's only one post, maybe two then we should leave them?

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #188
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Maybe split them off into a thread and lock it with a note that they were derailing the thread and such posts are not acceptable, that way they are not derailing but there is transparency as to what happened and why the posts were actioned.


  • #189
    Little Acorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Little Acorn


    Eve_Dublin wrote: »
    Bullying happens but most of the time it's a difference of opinion.


    Sorcha called me ungracious because she dragged her feelings about me from a debate that was had in AH a while ago where emotions ran high. It was personal. I'm not a bully and I'm definitely not a favourite in here. I've been posting for 5 years and recieved my share of infractions and warnings over the years. There's a difference between bullying and having a very different opinion to someone. Ellsbell was the first to attack my opinion on that thread with bold letters and highlighting, ironically but when I do it, it's bullying? Hmmm. Ellsbell was provoking an argument.

    Sorcha took her side because of feelings she has towards me from a previous thread in AH and also because my opinions differ from hers. I have no problems with that, a lot of us have posters we don't get along with on here but calling me a bully...no. I won't take that.

    There was no bullying on that thread.

    It's a serious word to bandy around and not a nice thing to be called when it's not true and not justified. You need to provide solid evidence to back up such a serious accusation.

    Hi Eve,
    I kinda got the feeling that there may have been a little bit of animosity/previous history there.
    Just to be clear I did not see bullying on that thread either so not accusing you of anything! :)
    I did know that Ellsbell felt picked on, but I think it was by the forum in general and definitely not just you. As has been discussed it may have been down to just difference of opinion. I don't know tbh - just presuming.
    I just really posted to discuss what happened in that thread with Ellsbell's post for the people who did not see the thread before things got deleted, because as username pointed out it does look worrying, and would leave a person wondering what was Ellsbell's final post that got deleted, and why was it deleted etc? If I hadn't seen her post I would have the oul tinfoil hat on wondering what Boards was trying to hide.:D
    Anyways Wibbs has already replied to my query (thanks Wibbs) so I'll stop talking about it now. :)


  • #190
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OK guys, for clarity I am posting the two posts which were deleted from the the graceful thread.
    Ellsbells wrote:
    It's hard to post your opinion on here at all lately as the bullies are out in force and if you have an independent opinion then you are lambasted.

    yeah lets all dress like hookers, swear like dockers, drink like fish and if we get pregnant exercise our right to have an abortion. that seems to be the view of the most virulent posters in tll of late and on that note I am moving on to forums new as tll has become a royal pain in the butt due to a few posters who are bullying and controlling all the threads. Adios
    Sorcha16 wrote:
    I won't go off-topic by elaborating, suffice to say I agree wholeheartedly with the above

    Now, as you will see, there was no covering up of any bullying, Ellsbells was complaining about the forum in general before she closed her account, it wasn't anything to do with the thread in question therefore deleted as an off topic rant. Sorcha was thread banned for being aggressive, she was given an warning for same, Ellsbells would have also been given a warning and threadbanned if she had not closed her account.

    What you might also be interested to hear is that both the OP of that thread, and Sorcha, once brought to our attention, were infact re-reg accounts of sitebanned trolls. The whole thread was posted with the intention of winding people up, sorcha posted in the manner which she did because she was trolling, not because she believed in what she as saying, she had an agenda, and that agenda wasn't the good of the forum.

    So now that I've clarified the above I hope we can move on from this one specific incident and concentrate of feedback of the forum in general.

    I'll re-iterate what I've said before, we take accusations of bullying very very seriously, I cannot abide it and I will not allow it. However, calling bully every time someone has an opposing opinion is not in the spirit of any discussion forum. Things are bound to get heated when people have different views, there's nothing wrong with that.

    As Wibbs has said, if you see bullying happening, report report report. Don't assume someone else will. In real cases of bullying, from my experience, the "victim" rarely reports the posts. If people are reporting posts, we can get a better idea of what's being seen from posters' eyes. We mods can't possibly see everything, and if we see one post, it may look innocent, but if we see a pattern - we can make an informed decision on what's happening within the forum.

    If anyone is ever unsure of what to do, drop any of us a PM, we are always willing to discuss issues concerning the forum and will help in any way we can.

    At the end of the day, this is YOUR forum, mods are here to ensure it runs smoothly and that everyone is relatively happy, or at least comfortable, posting here.


  • #191
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    username123 wrote: »
    I asked in feedback about it at the time and was told that you wouldnt be told of a moderators decision so I just left it.

    I feel a lot better after talking about it here, it had bothered me. I almost left boards because I just felt icky that someone could be nasty to you behind the scenes, nothing be done (from my and anyone elses perspective) and you'd just be left feeling bad about it.

    Maybe its an area that needs to be addressed by Mods?

    Well I was Ellsbells and I left because I felt I was being harrassed and intimidated by you... I reported it and nothing was done so have a think on that....

    I closed my account because I just felt there was no possibility of having a say as you seemed to follow me around threads to argue with what I had posted and I believe it was more than just a difference of opinion.

    I apologise to the mods for my last rant but to be honest I was so frustrated that I just lost it.

    I think TLL is a good forum and has improved, with the exception of a few posters, since the whole debate about the pregnancy thread.

    Am pretty close, since my post was deleted, to leaving boards for good as I am no longer feeling like everyone has the same voice here.


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  • #192
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Well I was Ellsbells and I left because I felt I was being harrassed and intimidated by you... I reported it and nothing was done so have a think on that....

    I closed my account because I just felt there was no possibility of having a say as you seemed to follow me around threads to argue with what I had posted and I believe it was more than just a difference of opinion.

    I apologise to the mods for my last rant but to be honest I was so frustrated that I just lost it.

    I think TLL is a good forum and has improved, with the exception of a few posters, since the whole debate about the pregnancy thread.

    Am pretty close, since my post was deleted, to leaving boards for good as I am no longer feeling like everyone has the same voice here.

    I have reported this post rather than respond on thread as you are actually personally attacking me so it would be inappropriate of me to make any kind of response.


  • #193
    Lucyfur
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,513 ✭✭✭✭Lucyfur


    CaraMay, as I have already said, we (the mods) take bullying very seriously.

    However, we do believe that there is a difference between bullying and difference of opinion.

    If you feel like you were bullied on site, please feel free to PM me, or another mod, these posts.

    We welcome discussion and debate and at times it can get heated, particularly with sensitive topics.

    Posts where the poster feels attacked will be acted on as quickly as possible.


  • #194
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Well I was Ellsbells and I left because I felt I was being harrassed and intimidated by you... I reported it and nothing was done so have a think on that....
    Well I did have a think on that and in case I/we made a mistake, or missed something, so I looked back at your reported posts against Username123(and others).

    It is my opinion that what I read showed no evidence of bullying, harassment nor intimidation and my fellow mods agreed at the time and still agree today. They looked like standard type replies to posts of yours in the back and forth debate that goes on in discussions on this forum and this site on an hourly basis and that's why "nothing was done". There was nothing to be done. Not going by the posts and the posting history of the members involved
    I closed my account because I just felt there was no possibility of having a say as you seemed to follow me around threads to argue with what I had posted and I believe it was more than just a difference of opinion.
    I see no evidence of this either. When someone makes an accusation of stalking, intimidation and bullying we take it very seriously. That goes both ways of course. If someone is accused of the aforementioned with little or no evidence we take that seriously too as it can be a form of bullying itself. Again in this thread you've accused another member of the community of stalking and intimidation and bullying, yet where is your evidence? I don't see it, my fellow mods don't see it and we have the behind the scenes on reported posts and deleted posts and a host of other mod utilities at our disposal.

    CaraMay/Ellsbells, just because you notice a name who replies to a couple of your posts on this website, it does not equal stalking. Just because someone disagrees with your points/posts, this does not equal intimidation or bullying.

    Secondly do not accuse another member of this community of bullying on an open thread. If you feel that something is going on then report posts, PM mods and if you feel you're still not getting a fair shake, then by all means please PM one of the Admins of this site who will have independent oversight and access to all the reported posts/posting histories etc and no personal stake in the forum itself. Make such an accusation again and you may have your access removed from the forum.

    Thank you.


    The important part is this; username123 as I/we after some deliberation find it, these accusations have no basis in reality as your post history shows.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #195
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The important part is this; username123 as I/we after some deliberation find it, these accusations have no basis in reality as your post history shows.

    Thanks.


  • #196
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    RangeR I have deleted your post. 1) this thread is for Ladies Lounge forum feedback and 2) if you had read the charter you would have noticed the part that says this forum is not for men to seek the opinion of womankind(tm) and 3) Please do not come to the forum to pimp threads on other forums.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #197
    SarahBeep!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭SarahBeep!


    This forum exists because we want it to. I dont see why there shouldn't be a place to come for a womans point of view. If I want to talk to someone about nutrition Id head over to nutrition and fitness. If Id like advice from a lady Id come here.
    Sometimes I dont want a mans point of view*, its no big deal.


    *not to say that the men who post here arent great, they are. But they are a minority.


  • #198
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    clairefontaine wrote: »

    The problem with this forum I feel is when it practises the very same things it's trying to get away from.

    Have you specific examples of this?

    I've had very very different views on lots of threads from the majority in the past on this forum. I've felt free to express them, sometimes it's ignited debate, sometimes it's aroused hostility, other times it's been ignored.

    Does it bother me that this happens? No, it doesn't sometimes it causes me to rethink, others I ignore it, and if I get hostility I report it.


  • #199
    Harrison Sour Macaw
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Harrison Sour Macaw


    The point is that we want to be able to say "you know I have a problem with this thing that affects myself and other women and I would like to discuss this" without a mountain of men jumping in to say "BUT WHAT ABOUT US" or "Don't be stupid those aren't real problems, WE find it funny" or "that doesn't actually happen don't be ridiculous"
    It doesn't mean groupthink, it doesn't mean we all have to agree, it doesn't mean we can't post "hey I think you're talking rubbish there tbh", it just means for once we have somewhere where we can acknowledge something IS a problem and discuss it without every other post being of necessity a defence that it is one on every single last subject
    And similarly when tGC have discussions on fathers' rights, for example, we don't go in there and say "don't be silly what about women"


  • #200
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Well, it's the woman's point of view philosophy. What does that mean? Could I have a point of view that is not considered a woman's or is it automatically valid because I am a woman. If I adopted a deviant opinion to one accepted by the group think accepted definition of a woman's point of view, would I be kicked out or warned or told off?

    Are there so many forums where what I say is invalid because I am a woman or invites all sorts of permitted anxieties and projections? [I suspect this is the source of why this forum exists in the first place?]

    Is this really after hours for the girls?

    I'm not really sure what you're after here tbh.
    There's a fairly diverse demographic on here, and excluding the male posters (the majority of whom that provide input here being on side), there are a lot of differences.

    I'd put the age range of women who post on here from 17 - 50 (possibly older) I'm 39 so I'm at the older end of the spectrum.

    Then some of us are single, some at the beginnings of our adult lives, some of us in relationships, some married with kids, some single with kids, some seperated or divorced, some of us who prioritise work and struggle to have a work/life balance, some of us completely focussed on careers and climbing the ladder, others who prioritise a good family life as more important than anything else. I've posted plenty of what could be seen as anti-women views, e.g. I don't believe women who go on maternity leave for nine months can expect to be treated the same as men/women who are in work for those nine months in relation to promotion.

    I posted against the grain in a way in the sexism thread, and asked a question of those posting about sexist experience asking if people had countered those experience with complaints etc, and got very few replies, yet my post got thanked.

    I like this forum. I enjoy the debates that get started, like the sexism thread, and the opportunity for women from all background and spheres of experience to put forward their views. I like being able to discuss things without the inevitable misogynist coming in declaring that we should all be chained to the kitchen sink/are out to sink men beyond view. I like the fact that we can talk about issues that affect women and have diverse views and disagree but resolve it easily for the most part.

    I've never come across group think here, nor have I been influenced by it. I've very very strong views influenced by a 17 year career working primarily with men that contradicts experiences on here sometimes but makes sense to me, and I post based on that.

    I'd love to see you post specific examples of where you have found "groupthink"


  • #201
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    The latest responses in the page 3 thread will tell you exactly why we need this forum.


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  • #202
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    To ascribe to a woman's point of view, assumes a universal perspective doesn't it?

    That's fine and all, but it's telling that a particular forum is needed so that the female demographic can feel safe talking about whatever they are talking about. Does that not say something about the rest of the place?

    I'm not saying I dislike the forum either, I'm just describing it from "my" point of view. The thread title asked for feedback and I offered some.

    It probably does, but if I recall correctly that was the very reason that The Ladies Lounge was set up was to give space to discuss issues that affect women without the third reply of every thread beginning "well, what about men??"

    That is what was happening elsewhere on boards when threads were started. To give you an example, on this thread, discussing sexual assault, even within TLL and with the charter clearly in place, you had lots of male posters come into what was a very sensitive thread and try and tell women who bravely shared their experiences that they were wrong. A few pages in, you can see what I mean.

    Now, can you imagine how that thread may have gone without the TLL Charter that its to discuss issues from a womans point of view?


  • #203
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Thank you for that example because it's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. For me it's generally obnoxious to do that, and kind of a pity that they ruin it for a constructive mutual gender point of view. Those are the points of view of jerks, not men in general, so I do think a "man's point of view" should not be ruled out. But flat out denial/attack of other's perceptions and experiences on sensitive topics where people bare internal realities, regardless of gender should be ruled out. Yeah yeah I know, the don't be a dick rule....but obviously that kind of being a dick [ahem alert to sexist language in that rule while we are on the topic!] doesn't count for being a dick elsewhere, right? They can get away with it everywhere else right or you wouldn't need a special forum for it.

    Thats why the only way for threads to not descend into chaos was to create gender-specific spaces to discuss them from that point of view. Similarly The Gentlemans Club is kind of a male version of TLL and women going onto the threads such as "the mens rights thread" and bleating " but-but, what about the poor wimmins" would get equally censored as a male poster coming in to TLL and doing it on a thread here.

    Really though, its the only forum out the hundreds on Boards where issues that might interest or concern women are discussed with a womans point of view in mind. They are often differing views, but at least you get a mix of female viewpoints that are not continually drowned out by men with their own male point of view.


  • #204
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    To ascribe to a woman's point of view, assumes a universal perspective doesn't it?

    That's fine and all, but it's telling that a particular forum is needed so that the female demographic can feel safe talking about whatever they are talking about. Does that not say something about the rest of the place?

    I'm not saying I dislike the forum either, I'm just describing it from "my" point of view. The thread title asked for feedback and I offered some.

    Nope, it means taking a viewpoint where women can discuss things without having an overly misogynistic point of view applied, that's all.

    Why is it telling about the rest of the place (assuming you mean boards)? It's a fairly male dominated place full stop.

    You seem to dislike that the forum does not follow your viewpoint, which has yet to be articulated to be honest, you rarely contribute here apart from the more controversial threads, and now you are shouting about not being heard. Pile of bs in my opinion.
    Neyite wrote: »
    It probably does, but if I recall correctly that was the very reason that The Ladies Lounge was set up was to give space to discuss issues that affect women without the third reply of every thread beginning "well, what about men??"

    That is what was happening elsewhere on boards when threads were started. To give you an example, on this thread, discussing sexual assault, even within TLL and with the charter clearly in place, you had lots of male posters come into what was a very sensitive thread and try and tell women who bravely shared their experiences that they were wrong. A few pages in, you can see what I mean.

    Now, can you imagine how that thread may have gone without the TLL Charter that its to discuss issues from a womans point of view?
    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Thank you for that example because it's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. For me it's generally obnoxious to do that, and kind of a pity that they ruin it for a constructive mutual gender point of view. Those are the points of view of jerks, not men in general, so I do think a "man's point of view" should not be ruled out. But flat out denial/attack of other's perceptions and experiences on sensitive topics where people bare internal realities, regardless of gender should be ruled out. Yeah yeah I know, the don't be a dick rule....but obviously that kind of being a dick [ahem alert to sexist language in that rule while we are on the topic!] doesn't count for being a dick elsewhere, right? They can get away with it everywhere else right or you wouldn't need a special forum for it.
    Why are you here if you dislike it so much?

    Neyite wrote: »
    Thats why the only way for threads to not descend into chaos was to create gender-specific spaces to discuss them from that point of view. Similarly The Gentlemans Club is kind of a male version of TLL and women going onto the threads such as "the mens rights thread" and bleating " but-but, what about the poor wimmins" would get equally censored as a male poster coming in to TLL and doing it on a thread here.

    Really though, its the only forum out the hundreds on Boards where issues that might interest or concern women are discussed with a womans point of view in mind. They are often differing views, but at least you get a mix of female viewpoints that are not continually drowned out by men with their own male point of view.
    Thank you.


  • #205
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Sorry? What?

    God I'm sorry I gave any feedback.


  • #206
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Sorry? What?

    God I'm sorry I gave any feedback.

    Maybe you shouldn't have. It didn't make sense from the outset.


  • #207
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Sorry? What?

    God I'm sorry I gave any feedback.

    You didn't really give any feedback though did you?


  • #208
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    I felt I did.

    Neither here nor there now. I have deleted it. Obviously it was not welcome here.


  • #209
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just to clarify what was in the opening post. I've bolded the important bits.
    tLL was set up as a forum for the lady posters of Boards to discuss topics pertinent to them, from a female perspective - that isn't up for debate. This feedback is for posters (contributing posters in the main!) to get a chance to voice their concerns, irritations, thoughts about how the forum is operating, what direction the forum is going in and what direction they would like to see the forum go in.

    So in short, no posts defending the use of whataboutery, no posts demanding a move away from tLL being aimed at and for lady posters to discuss topics from their perspective, etc.


  • #210
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Thanks Stheno and whoopsies.

    You both made it clearer I don't really belong here. I didn't mean to offend either if you.

    Have a good evening and hope your forum goes the way you want it to go.


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  • #211
    KamiKazeKitten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭KamiKazeKitten


    Stheno wrote: »
    Why are you here if you dislike it so much?

    Whoa, whoa, whoa. How is that helpful?
    This is a feedback thread, she's entitled to post her opinion. And you're entitled to post replies back.
    The amount of posts she has has nothing to do with it. For all I know, if the forum was changed maybe clairefontaine would post more?
    Not that it looks like that's likely now.


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