Feb 9th Protest - will you be joining?

darkhorse · 10-02-2013 01:09AM

Almaviva wrote: »

And another 5 should see the bulk of the correction made.

Who writes your scripts, Enda Kenny's advisors???

road_high · 10-02-2013 01:12AM

Sparks43 wrote: »

Lol im trying to work out a rough area estimate of the route

ie Length 2.9km av width 10m

2900 * 10 = 29,000 m2

2 people in a square meter then 58,000 or so marched

But then add in the people waiting at the start when the group finished.

anothe 5k or so

And the people who joined in along the way

Getting on for 70,000 and that is based on 10m wide average streets

Why would the Gardai then estimate only 25k or so? They are used to these sort of things so there's no real reason to question their figures, which speak for themselves. The protest today was a damn squib. (despite it being a pretty nice day!).

road_high · 10-02-2013 01:15AM

darkhorse wrote: »

Who writes your scripts, Enda Kenny's advisors???

The deficit the country is still running tells it's own story to anyone with a jot of sense. We cannot continue to keep spending so far in excess of what we earn in taxes. There's no free money out there, despite what the left wingers would like to have people believe.

K-9 · 10-02-2013 01:20AM

20Cent wrote: »

McWilliams had no power the dept of finance did they decided what to do noting to do with him. I don't claim he's a sage or a genius or whatever but just judge people for what they say. It only came up in the thread because it was claimed he was behind the bank guarantee therefore whatever he says for the rest of his life is invalid. A silly assumption on every level and also untrue. If one has a problem with the article quoted then say whats wrong with it and discuss it but setting up a strawman is boring and not even true.

Your last line makes no sense btw.

The Department of Finance had no power on the night of the guarantee and well you know it, which is why they went to pains to leak how they did not propose Anglo as a guaranteed bank.

You know this fine well as do others. Blame Lenihan, Cowen and the bankers, but free McWiliams who put the bright idea into Lenihan's head, and still swallow everything he says.

The DoF gave prudent advice which still would have cost us Billions but nowhere near the Anglo cost. It's probably DoF advice in the current deal, not swash buckling, not politicians or economists out to make a name for themselves, just prudent advice.

Sparks43 · 10-02-2013 01:23AM

road_high wrote: »

Why would the Gardai then estimate only 25k or so? They are used to these sort of things so there's no real reason to question their figures, which speak for themselves. The protest today was a damn squib. (despite it being a pretty nice day!).

I would not call it a damp squib

Quite a lot of first time marchers there today if even a small number of them come away with some belief that their voice can make a change then it is all worth it imo.

No way there was only 25k there, if we got shown arial views then we would know for sure.

Wont hold my breath for those photos though

darkhorse · 10-02-2013 01:30AM

Almaviva wrote: »

If thats all the money we have, then thats all the money we have.

Yeah, but that is before we start paying for property tax and water charges, also before there anything is taken from us in the next budget. Is that not something to protest about.

10-02-2013 01:40AM

road_high wrote: »

And they know it achives nothing. People need to get down to work in this country and just damn well get on with it. Most people accept this hence the low turnout.

wow you just told the Irish people to put up and shut up and pay other peoples debts off!!!

G Power · 10-02-2013 01:42AM

darkhorse wrote: »

Yeah, but that is before we start paying for property tax and water charges, also before there anything is taken from us in the next budget. Is that not something to protest about.

too muc of the old "ara sure it'll be grand like" attitude with people here no matter how bad tuings get for over 1,600,000 of us. that's 1 in 3 yet some will swear to the grave that themselves and every single person they know are ok, some say they don't know anyone that's suffering here at all.:eek::eek:

samsemtex · 10-02-2013 01:46AM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Impressive figures indeed,and if we are honest,probably about right in comparative terms too.

Mind you,the "average" European was'nt getting themselves entwined in 40 year mortgages on poorly constructed housing units built in totally unsustainable locations.

The same "average" European was'nt drawing down nearly as much as his Irish counterpart,in whatever discipline they worked.

The "average" European was living in a modest but affordable apartment,usually in a City with highly subsidised easily accessible Public Transport,which also allowed our "average" European to avoid "having" to source a "Car Loan".

Our "average" European would be paying substantially more in Tax and Social Contributions all along,in addition to their Local Taxation,Water and Refuse Charges and in some locations a Religion tax......

Lets not get to maudlin,but we remain firmly wedded to the notion that Free Stuff actually exists,and until that finally evaporates then the work of the IMF,ECB and the rest will not be done.

This is the last thing i am going to say on this issue as it really seems you are intent on this self loathing, we deserved it crap.

THAT HAS NOTHING TO WITH IT! How does any of that make the slightest bit of difference to the fact that we made the debt of a private bank sovereign? Personal debt in Ireland was not the problem. Yes there were 110% mortgages, yes there were people living beyond there means but these were not a majority. Most people were being sensible.

And you can try to blame people all you want but we were all being told that property prices are going up and up and if you dont buy now you wont get on the ladder. At every turn people were being told to buy a house before its too late, people were being told left, right and centre that if they didnt buy an investment property in Bulgaria they were idiots. (the vast majority of people didnt btw)

That wasnt people being stupid and naive dopes as you seem to be portraying them. They were being told that these were prudent and vital investment decisions.

And despite what i said above, the vast majority of people were not in large personal debt. Personal debt was not the problem, stop telling people it was. Negative equity is completely different.

And as for this line: "Our "average" European would be paying substantially more in Tax and Social Contributions all along,in addition to their Local Taxation,Water and Refuse Charges and in some locations a Religion tax......"

Aside from the fact a lot of that is completely irrelevant since most people have to pay for many of these services anyway as the govt doesnt provide them.
The public exchequer was running huge surpluses! We were paying off our national debt ffs. We didnt need to pay higher taxes. The way we collected them should have changed but again that was a government problem not the publics. Why are you so intent on saying we caused this when its blatantly obvious to anyone who looks at the numbers that we didnt? It really is baffling that you want us to be in the wrong.

Henlars67 · 10-02-2013 01:51AM

I was at the Sligo protest today. There was a much bigger crowd than I expected.

I won't be going to another one.

PBP attempted to take it over as they do any public political event around here. Purposely staying at the back for the march and then when we'd reached O Connell street they pushed their way up to the top through several thousand people shouting as loudly as they could.

They also personally abused a siptu person who was there.

Now I've no time for SIPTU and won't unless they totally disassociate themselves from labour but to single out one person who was there and abuse him over a megaphone was wrong.

darkhorse · 10-02-2013 01:57AM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Our "average" European would be paying substantially more in Tax and Social Contributions all along,in addition to their Local Taxation,Water and Refuse Charges.

And receiving substantially more services maybe?

darkhorse · 10-02-2013 02:14AM

samsemtex wrote: »

Oh so FF ****ed us over did they? Well then surely you are all in support of a government that is far superior and does things right yeah? Fine Gael are following FFs policies but they just dont have the calibre of politician to do it as effectively as FF did. Its about time you realised we replaced one crooked government which didnt care about the people with another only this one is even less effective. But good man sure, blindly follow them anyway just because "well at least they arent FF".

Agree with you 100%. Also, I am nearly sure at this stage that FF and FG actually have it pre-arranged that when one party does anything out of kilter (to use an expression from one liar) the other party can build up their ratings---Ah, but its complicated, as one minister would say, for us average electorate to understand, so here's an example of what I am talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhxp-JJqDo&feature=player_detailpage

darkhorse · 10-02-2013 02:37AM

road_high wrote: »

If they really really felt strongly about it and thought it was important/relevant to their lives then most people would pull out all the stops to attend.

I cant agree with you on this one. Irish people are instinctively lazy when it comes to important issues like marching/protesting, also sticking to-gether on important issues, always assuming that, well, raising our voices, it is not going to have any effect on the status quo, and the government knows this, they know exactly how to divide and conquer the population, must be something in the water, but thats for another thread.!!

road_high · 10-02-2013 02:49AM

Deleted User wrote: »

wow you just told the Irish people to put up and shut up and pay other peoples debts off!!!

Hardly. The inconvienent truth is that the largest share of Ireland's debt by far is that accrued by the country spending more than it's taking in in revenues on publice expenditure. That is all our own doing and our debt. No one else should be expected to pay that, the banking debts are different and I actually agree we shouldn't be paying them. But they deflect nicely from the elephant in the room here. Namely Ireland as a country is living beyond it's means at the current time. Spending has to be brought into line with what we take in, and the quicker the better.

samsemtex · 10-02-2013 02:56AM

road_high wrote: »

Hardly. The inconvienent truth is that the largest share of Ireland's debt by far is that accrued by the country spending more than it's taking in in revenues on publice expenditure. That is all our own doing and our debt. No one else should be expected to pay that, the banking debts are different and I actually agree we shouldn't be paying them. But they deflect nicely from the elephant in the room here. Namely Ireland as a country is living beyond it's means at the current time. Spending has to be brought into line with what we take in, and the quicker the better.

And you dont think that if we hadnt used 18 billion from our pension reserve fund to pay banking debt it would have given us more wiggle room with our deficit issues? What if that money was instead available for our ACTUAL debt? Then we wouldnt need to borrow as much to pay that back. Then we would have less interest to pay to further reduce the spending ability of the government. This all links back to the banking debt you know. You just have to look at it in depth. Why so desperate to blame us.

This really is my last post on the issue.

miss tickle · 10-02-2013 02:56AM

darkhorse wrote: »

I cant agree with you on this one. Irish people are instinctively lazy when it comes to important issues like marching/protesting, also sticking to-gether on important issues, always assuming that, well, raising our voices, it is not going to have any effect on the status quo, and the government knows this, they know exactly how to divide and conquer the population, must be something in the water, but thats for another thread.!!

or maybe the majority who did not turn out today could not identify with the spurious reasons behind this little outing

darkhorse · 10-02-2013 02:58AM

G Power wrote: »

too muc of the old "ara sure it'll be grand like" attitude with people here no matter how bad tuings get for over 1,600,000 of us. that's 1 in 3 yet some will swear to the grave that themselves and every single person they know are ok, some say they don't know anyone that's suffering here at all.:eek::eek:

I am in one little tiny town in this country, and I personally know 34 couples (26 of whom at least 1 spouse is working) that are on the breadline.

G Power · 10-02-2013 03:04AM

darkhorse wrote: »

I am in one little tiny town in this country, and I personally know 34 couples (26 of whom at least 1 spouse is working) that are on the breadline.

we all know them sure and i don't believe people for one minute when they make bull**** statements that everything is rosy in their world, denial is crippling us here!!

G Power · 10-02-2013 03:06AM

miss tickle wrote: »

or maybe the majority who did not turn out today could not identify with the spurious reasons behind this little outing

yes, maybe, but why can't you admit they may well just not have given enough of a crap to hit the streets, the majority of people are expecting those who've woken up to political and big business bull$hit to swallow their ****e excuses for not doing anything!! get up the flipping road outta that if ya think i'm some sort of thick!!

KyussBishop · 10-02-2013 03:09AM

road_high wrote: »

Hardly. The inconvienent truth is that the largest share of Ireland's debt by far is that accrued by the country spending more than it's taking in in revenues on publice expenditure. That is all our own doing and our debt. No one else should be expected to pay that, the banking debts are different and I actually agree we shouldn't be paying them. But they deflect nicely from the elephant in the room here. Namely Ireland as a country is living beyond it's means at the current time. Spending has to be brought into line with what we take in, and the quicker the better.

That is economically illiterate; there is absolutely no economic reason why the ECB (through bonds or through straight out monetary financing, within limits of the inflation target) can not fund the entire EU, it is a political problem only since it is countries like Germany fillibustering the needed policies.

Governance over our country does not stop at our own government, it goes right up to the EU and the ECB; if the EU is deadlocked thanks to fillibustering member states, then our government needs to make the best possible effort at promoting the necessary policies despite that, and then if that fails, we need to look at reducing our role within the EU; that doesn't mean an exit either, but it will mean getting back some sovereign control (particularly over monetary policy) so we're not self-destructing in slow motion for the next 10-15 years.

The idea that 'there is no alternative' is pure nonsense; there is the ability to fund the public sector fully, and to provide jobs for all of the unemployed in Europe, and it is politics which stops this, as there is no economic obstacle.

The stupid divide-and-conquer public-sector/unions vs private sector bullshít is wholly ignorant and depressing to see; if you disagree with inefficiency in the public sector, promote reallocation of funds not cuts, if you argue for cuts you are arguing for nothing short of destroying the public services.

miss tickle · 10-02-2013 03:21AM

G Power wrote: »

yes, maybe, but why can't you admit they may well just not have given enough of a crap to hit the streets, the majority of people are expecting those who've woken up to political and big business bull$hit to swallow their ****e excuses for not doing anything!! get up the flipping road outta that if ya think i'm some sort of thick!!

I rest my case

road_high · 10-02-2013 03:29AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

That is economically illiterate; there is absolutely no economic reason why the ECB (through bonds or through straight out monetary financing, within limits of the inflation target) can not fund the entire EU, it is a political problem only since it is countries like Germany fillibustering the needed policies.

Governance over our country does not stop at our own government, it goes right up to the EU and the ECB; if the EU is deadlocked thanks to fillibustering member states, then our government needs to make the best possible effort at promoting the necessary policies despite that, and then if that fails, we need to look at reducing our role within the EU; that doesn't mean an exit either, but it will mean getting back some sovereign control (particularly over monetary policy) so we're not self-destructing in slow motion for the next 10-15 years.

The idea that 'there is no alternative' is pure nonsense; there is the ability to fund the public sector fully, and to provide jobs for all of the unemployed in Europe, and it is politics which stops this, as there is no economic obstacle.

The stupid divide-and-conquer public-sector/unions vs private sector bullshít is wholly ignorant and depressing to see; if you disagree with inefficiency in the public sector, promote reallocation of funds not cuts, if you argue for cuts you are arguing for nothing short of destroying the public services.

So taxpayers in the eu should be asked to take up the slack for our overspending?

KyussBishop · 10-02-2013 03:37AM

road_high wrote: »

So taxpayers in the eu should be asked to take up the slack for our overspending?

Yes this nonsense again, ignoring half my post; being an increase in EU-wide spending, taxpayers everywhere in the EU benefit, and don't even have to finance projects outside their home country, seeing as the ECB is capable of providing monetary financing up to the limit of the inflation target.

You can even spin-off countries without them exiting Europe entirely, allowing them to reintroduce local currencies and provide the financing themselves, while relegating the Euro to an intra-European exchange currency.

G Power · 10-02-2013 03:47AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

That is economically illiterate; there is absolutely no economic reason why the ECB (through bonds or through straight out monetary financing, within limits of the inflation target) can not fund the entire EU, it is a political problem only since it is countries like Germany fillibustering the needed policies.

Governance over our country does not stop at our own government, it goes right up to the EU and the ECB; if the EU is deadlocked thanks to fillibustering member states, then our government needs to make the best possible effort at promoting the necessary policies despite that, and then if that fails, we need to look at reducing our role within the EU; that doesn't mean an exit either, but it will mean getting back some sovereign control (particularly over monetary policy) so we're not self-destructing in slow motion for the next 10-15 years.

The idea that 'there is no alternative' is pure nonsense; there is the ability to fund the public sector fully, and to provide jobs for all of the unemployed in Europe, and it is politics which stops this, as there is no economic obstacle.

The stupid divide-and-conquer public-sector/unions vs private sector bullshít is wholly ignorant and depressing to see; if you disagree with inefficiency in the public sector, promote reallocation of funds not cuts, if you argue for cuts you are arguing for nothing short of destroying the public services.

but to expect everything to be fixed by havinf the ecb fund the whole eu is never going to fix anything. we need to hit the big reset button that will see huge fortunes practically wiped clean for those who refuse to let those worse effected (most of us) off the hook for debts we didn't have a hand at creating, due to them having amassed such fortunes in the first place.

we can't fix anything by having the current bunch of nutjobs tell us how to fix the problems. a deaf dumb and blind person would probably spot there's something not right with the system as a whole quicker than those who should be able to see the writing on the wall when we hear the horror stories these nutters get up to with sinking nations and cos they've already invested and gambled wisely before they make their moves they win again!!

come on like!! this is dodgier than the 3 card trick only people will defend the dodgy ****s in governments, Brussels, ecb, imf, jp morgan, goldman sachs, rothchilds rockerfellers, big business etc to the detriment of everyone around them in this country!! why???? is it cos unlike the typical 3 card trick scamming type these fcukers have the most expensive suits, only stay in the finest hotels completely closed off and locked down to us while they're there, travel to and from airports in the lap of luxury with private and public security/ police protecting them, fly in the finest private jets, eat and rink the finest foods with all their crazy associates at regular junkets all paid for by us?????

G Power · 10-02-2013 03:48AM

miss tickle wrote: »

I rest my case

and i in turn rest mine

KyussBishop · 10-02-2013 03:57AM

G Power wrote: »

but to expect everything to be fixed by havinf the ecb fund the whole eu is never going to fix anything. we need to hit the big reset button that will see huge fortunes practically wiped clean for those who refuse to let those worse effected (most of us) due to them having amassed such fortunes in the first place.

we can't fix anything by having the current bunch of nutjobs tell us how to fix the problems. a deaf dumb and blind person would probably spot there's something not right with the system as a whole quicker than those who should be able to see the writing on the wall when we hear the horror stories these nutters get up to with sinking nations and cos they've already invested and gambled wisely before they make their moves they win again!!

come on like!! this is dodgier than the 3 card trick only people will defend the dodgy ****s in governments, Brussels, ecb, imf, jp morgan, goldman sachs, rothchilds rockerfellers, big business etc to the detriment of everyone around them in this country!! why???? is it cos unlike the typical 3 card trick scamming type these fcukers have the most expensive suits, only stay in the finest hotels completely closed off and locked down to us while they're there, travel to and from airports in the lap of luxury with private and public security/ police protecting them, fly in the finest private jets, eat and rink the finest foods with all their crazy associates at regular junkets all paid for by us?????

The corruption involved in the crisis is definitely something that needs to be tackled, but that's hard to tackle and will be a long-term struggle/reform; people are suffering from unemployed and decimated services right now though, so the first port of call is getting the monetary system functioning again, and providing governments with enough funds to run properly again.

This can actually go a long way to cutting out the corruption inherent in the financial system, because once austerity politics is destroyed by showing that there is no shortage of money in a fiat money system, the entire right-wing/conservative/neoliberal political narrative is destroyed along with it, by showing that you don't need cuts during a crisis (and that they are the worst thing you can do).

After that, then is when it will be possible to reform finance; when the finance industry can't blackmail governments and populations, by saying there will be economic armageddon if they are 1: properly regulated, 2: face fines/jail-terms for corruption/fraud and 3: broken up so there are no 'too big to fail' institutions (which threaten genuine economic damage if collapsed).

miss tickle · 10-02-2013 04:00AM

G Power wrote: »

and i in turn rest mine

maybe you should rest your head, you've had and an active afternoon.

G Power · 10-02-2013 04:03AM

miss tickle wrote: »

maybe you should rest your head, you've had and an active afternoon.

nothing wrong with my head and i live an active life everyday

my friend · 10-02-2013 04:04AM

The Unions could barely get 4% of their membership onto the streets of Dublin on a beautiful day

major FAIL

Am Chile · 10-02-2013 04:50AM

From some threads on facebook, I hear on the dublin march Siptu officials were dictating to people who weren,t marching under union banners when and where they could,t march, I also heard when the march got to dame street just as the speeches were starting that Siptu officials blocked anyone without union banners from entering that area, then this video surfaces on youtube of Gardai attempting to provoke a fight with protesters who weren,t behind union banners, a lot of people may draw the conclusion anyone who wasn,t behind union banners were being politically policied.

Feb 9th Protest - will you be joining?

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