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Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

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    #1142
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    summerskin wrote: »
    Yes, with my Irish mother, Irish grandparents, Irish wife, Irish children and living and working in Ireland I clearly hate the place...

    I love Ireland and most of the people. I just have no time for the mouthbreathing "800 years" brigade who hate everything British, while watching English soccer, watching English tv and shopping in NI so than can save a few euro.


    You should check out the film, the believer.

    I would argue a very high percentage of people like England, Scotland & wales and the people who live there, sometimes the road to real peace is in the arguments that lead to understanding.

    I would also say there has not been any real nastiness in this thread towards people from different backgrounds and the argument of the poppy stems from what went on after WW2 as opposed to during it and before it.

    Regarding 800 years, it wasnt that long ago so you can't expect people to 100% forget about and for some people still alive its still a very painful subject.


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    #1143
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    summerskin wrote: »
    Yes, with my Irish mother, Irish grandparents, Irish wife, Irish children and living and working in Ireland I clearly hate the place...

    I love Ireland and most of the people. I just have no time for the mouthbreathing "800 years" brigade who hate everything British, while watching English soccer, watching English tv and shopping in NI so than can save a few euro.

    Who hates everything British? I certainly do not. While you live here, have an understanding of our history and the modern tentative peace in NI.


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    #1144
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,070 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    This thread is a very good example as to why the white poppy should be more available

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_(symbol)


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    #1145
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,860 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I think Jon Snow has refered to it as Poppy Fascism, and I agree with him 100%, as the enforced wearing devalues the true meaning.
    Youve exactly gottten to the core of the thread.
    The widespread wearing of it in the media in the UK makes celebrating the war dead might raise the question on some (and maybe the OPs) mind as to why in Ireland we dont do the same or similar?

    Fact is that in Ireland, unlike the UK, conventional war or the military has not touched many families in any way no matter how many generations back you go.
    In the UK tens of millions of people have close relatives who have died in the world wars and that memory is pricked by the body bags coming back from the middle east.
    And they have 1000s on the ground still in Afgahanistan this very moment.

    They have a set of circumstances where remembering the dead and soldiers putting themselves in harms way is very relevant (and thus the new found prominence).

    In Ireland though I'm probably quite representative in that I don't know anyone who fought in any war (well, not a conventional one - ahem) in my family no matter how extended and have no friends or family who have any military service.

    This complete lack of relevance of all things military and war is why wearing the poppy is just an irrelevance to me and 99% of the irish population - and its nothing to do with being anti british


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    #1146
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    But the Mau Maus.....


    Trying to make a point? Or just annoyed that I'm right? I'd guess the latter.


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    #1147
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    Youve exactly gottten to the core of the thread.
    The widespread wearing of it in the media in the UK makes celebrating the war dead might raise the question on some (and maybe the OPs) mind as to why in Ireland we dont do the same or similar?

    Fact is that in Ireland, unlike the UK, conventional war or the military has not touched many families in any way no matter how many generations back you go.
    In the UK tens of millions of people have close relatives who have died in the world wars and that memory is pricked by the body bags coming back from the middle east.
    And they have 1000s on the ground still in Afgahanistan this very moment.

    They have a set of circumstances where remembering the dead and soldiers putting themselves in harms way is very relevant (and thus the new found prominence).

    In Ireland though I'm probably quite representative in that I don't know anyone who fought in any war (well, not a conventional one - ahem) in my family no matter how extended and have no friends or family who have any military service.

    This complete lack of relevance of all things military and war is why wearing the poppy is just an irrelevance to me and 99% of the irish population - and its nothing to do with being anti british


    1000's of Irish people died on both www 1/2 wars so i would say it effects quite alot of Irish families and friends rather than the 1% you say.

    1000's of irish died as a result on Irish/British conflict pre www 2 that have effected the way some people see the British political elite and their motives.


    Alot of British people love nothing better than to slag off the Germans and think nothing wrong of it yet if Irish people do the same thing well its anti British and hateful.

    Our partial independence is less than a 100 years old and greate strides have been made but you cant expect it to completely be forgotten and ditto for the British and Germans.


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    #1148
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    billybudd wrote: »
    1000's of Irish people died on both www 1/2 wars so i would say it effects quite alot of Irish families and friends rather than the 1% you say.

    They did. Unfortunately their memory seems to be controversial, in Britain it is not. We also had conscription in Britain so it was more than just volunteers that died, it was normal Joe Soaps who had no choice. I think that is something people forget. Yes, WWI was the result of imperialist sabre ratling, but the cause/objectives of the war are irrelevant, it is those that died that are remembered.

    WWI is still fairly hot in people's minds. My Grandparents were all in teh services. My Dad remembers their anderson shelter. One of his clearest memories of childhood is when they finally stopped sweet rationing..
    billybudd wrote: »
    1000's of irish died as a result on Irish/British conflict pre www 2 that have effected the way some people see the British political elite and their motives.

    was it 1000s? I believe the conflict totalled around 2000 dead in total, the majority British.
    billybudd wrote: »
    Alot of British people love nothing better than to slag off the Germans and think nothing wrong of it yet if Irish people do the same thing well its anti British and hateful.

    Slagging is one thing and is great fun. getting a dig in at every available opportunity about something people had no control over is something else. My frequent use of Harry Enfiled's "Jurgen the German" is to show how this comes across. It appears that some people just want the Brits to constantly apologise for the actions of their forefathers.
    billybudd wrote: »
    Our partial independence is less than a 100 years old and greate strides have been made but you cant expect it to completely be forgotten and ditto for the British and Germans.

    The British and Germans buried the hatchet years ago. The British and French on the other hand.......;)


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    #1149
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    They did. Unfortunately their memory seems to be controversial, in Britain it is not. We also had conscription in Britain so it was more than just volunteers that died, it was normal Joe Soaps who had no choice. I think that is something people forget. Yes, WWI was the result of imperialist sabre ratling, but the cause/objectives of the war are irrelevant, it is those that died that are remembered.

    WWI is still fairly hot in people's minds. My Grandparents were all in teh services. My Dad remembers their anderson shelter. One of his clearest memories of childhood is when they finally stopped sweet rationing..



    was it 1000s? I believe the conflict totalled around 2000 dead in total, the majority British.

    The Irish civil war? or total deaths pre.1924?


    Slagging is one thing and is great fun. getting a dig in at every available opportunity about something people had no control over is something else. My frequent use of Harry Enfiled's "Jurgen the German" is to show how this comes across. It appears that some people just want the Brits to constantly apologise for the actions of their forefathers.

    Alot of people have the same mentality just maybe British people not getting Irish humour? Alot of people dont give a ****e and say things in jest.

    Germany apologised, the head of the Monarch state has not and will not.





    The British and Germans buried the hatchet years ago. The British and French on the other hand.......;)

    Oh come on alot of sly digs by even the British media when England come up against past enemies.


    From living in England my conclusion is that alot of English people have no awareness of what happended in Ireland and still view it as not that big of deal which can be quite infuriating if some of your family suffered because of it, be like an Irish person making light of a few generations being wiped out in www1/2 and saying ''ahh sure that was too long ago, who cares?''

    Also in England if i celebrated Irish independence i was viewed as a RA head and you know the rest.


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    #1150
    Madam
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Madam


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The British and Germans buried the hatchet years ago. The British and French on the other hand.......;)

    Au contraire, we love the French here in Scotland - we still have that 'auld aliance' don't you know;)


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    #1151
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,010 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    You seem to think the kenyan issue is a deflection. The fact is that British troops were responsible for torturing and killing thousands in Kenya alone. The poppy funds go towards ex-service personell. Therefore raising their deeds is perfectly legitimate.

    Have you managed to find any live ones in Ireland yet?


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    #1152
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Have you managed to find any live ones in Ireland yet?


    So what your saying is we should just mind our own business and not worry about what goes on in the world? If only the BA & the US army amongst some would do that and let impartial peace keeping and human rights organisations deal with human issues then the world would be a better place.


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    #1153
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,010 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    billybudd wrote: »
    So what your saying is we should just mind our own business and not worry about what goes on in the world? If only the BA & the US army amongst some would do that and let impartial peace keeping and human rights organisations deal with human issues then the world would be a better place.

    What I'm saying is what I said, and not what you think I said. How on earth you can draw your conclusion from what I posted is a mystery to me.:P


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    #1154
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Have you managed to find any live ones in Ireland yet?


    I use kenya as an example. Given the date its infinetly more likely that veterans of colonial conflicts like it are alive rather than WWII veterans.


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    #1155
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    What I'm saying is what I said, and not what you think I said. How on earth you can draw your conclusion from what I posted is a mystery to me.:P


    It was a question as that is what ? means.

    So what did you mean?


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    #1156
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,010 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    I use kenya as an example. Given the date its infinetly more likely that veterans of colonial conflicts like it are alive rather than WWII veterans.

    60 odd years ago? That's a bit of a stretch. Perhaps the British Legion is paying for the upkeep of some Cryogenics facility in Dublin.


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    #1157
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    billybudd wrote: »


    So what your saying is we should just mind our own business and not worry about what goes on in the world? If only the BA & the US army amongst some would do that and let impartial peace keeping and human rights organisations deal with human issues then the world would be a better place.

    You mean organisations like the UN? I agree with you and I fully support anyone engaged on one of their peace keeping missions.

    Which is one of the reasons why I have bought a poppy.


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    #1158
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    60 odd years ago? That's a bit of a stretch. Perhaps the British Legion is paying for the upkeep of some Cryogenics facility in Dublin.


    Malaya to Kenya to Suez to Aden to Iraq II. Thats 1948 to 2003.

    Why is it you don't make your remarks re cryogenic facilities when we get the usual justifications that refer to WW1 and WWII?


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    #1159
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,010 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nodin wrote: »
    Malaya to Kenya to Suez to Aden to Iraq II. Thats 1948 to 2003.

    Why is it you don't make your remarks re cryogenic facilities when we get the usual justifications that refer to WW1 and WWII?


    They were probably experimenting with cryogenics in the 60s, but WW1 and WW2 would have been a definite no no on that score.


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    #1160
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    can we have a little sympathy for the british indians killed in the mau mau wars......a lot of them in a horrific manner..

    they were doing no worse than making a home in foreign lands....the same as the irish did in the usa, canada, australia, etc.....

    or is it only irish that are innocent.......


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    #1161
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    golden lane wrote: »
    can we have a little sympathy for the british indians killed in the mau mau wars......a lot of them in a horrific manner..

    they were doing no worse than making a home in foreign lands....the same as the irish did in the usa, canada, australia, etc.....

    or is it only irish that are innocent.......


    What are you on about now?


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    #1162
    goodie2shoes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 702 ✭✭✭goodie2shoes


    wearing one is very much a personal choice, and i would in no way think any less of someone who choose to wear it.

    that said i wouldn't as i do not feel inclined to commemorate soldiers who slaughtered my fellow irish-men, women and children

    exactly the same reason i choose not to wear an Easter lily.


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    #1163
    Rhinocharge
    Registered Users Posts: 3,348 ✭✭✭Rhinocharge


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    The blood of one side only. Hardly a gesture symbolising the futility of war.
    The question was regarding Irish people wearing the poppy. Like it or not at the time we were part of the British Isles & over 30,000 Irish men died during the war while serving the British army.
    The poppy doesn't represent the futility of war & I never said it did.
    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    So did a lot of Germans, are their lives not worth honouring too? Nope only Irish and by extension the side they were fighting on matter.
    Actually since ´45 it is not en-voque in Germany to celebrate the deeds and remembrance of german soldiers (at least without beeing labeled "nazi" and "revisionist". The only flower used in the German military tradition is the Leontopodium alpinum, as a symbol for the alpine rangers "Gebirgsjäger" & I didn't say they didn't matter. The question at hand is regarding Irish people wearing a Poppy.
    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    The red poppy may have symbolised one thing but it raises money for another.
    There is no "may" about it, the poppy symbolises the blood of the dead.
    If it's just the money you have the issue with, light a candle for them all.


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    #1164
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,070 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Rhinocharge wrote: »
    Like it or not at the time we were part of the British Isles

    We still are part of the British Isles as that is a geogrphical name. You mean we were part of the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland.

    There is no "may" about it, the poppy symbolises the blood of the dead.

    The dead of one side


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    #1165
    summerskin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭summerskin


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

    We still are part of the British Isles as that is a geogrphical name. You mean we were part of the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland.




    The dead of one side

    Yep. The side where you are currently living. Don't forget that.


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    #1166
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,070 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    summerskin wrote: »
    Yep. The side where you are currently living. Don't forget that.

    I prefer to actually remember all who died, primarily the millions of civilians in wars. The red poppy certainly does not do that. Don't forget that.


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    #1167
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    summerskin wrote: »
    Yes, with my Irish mother, Irish grandparents, Irish wife, Irish children and living and working in Ireland I clearly hate the place...

    I love Ireland and most of the people. I just have no time for the mouthbreathing "800 years" brigade who hate everything British, while watching English soccer, watching English tv and shopping in NI so than can save a few euro.

    Thankfully there are only a few of them left. All bile and dogma, long inaccurate and fogged up memories. Sad really.


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    #1168
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    http://dancooperulu.wordpress.com/2012/11/09/why-i-declined-an-invitation-to-lay-a-wreath-at-the-uols-rememberance-service/


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    #1169
    wendell borton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    Listened to a Intersting interview of Cruel Britannia Author Ian Cobain by pat kenny during the week about GB's use of torture.
    The british army are world leaders in torture. They perfected it from the boer war to after WWII. They used these skills to try to hold onto their crumpling empire indiscremently, they even tortured Barack Obama's grandfather in kenya.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/nov/04/cruel-britannia-ian-cobain-review

    Maybe before you wear a symbol you shold make sure you know what it represents. The british army have created, through their own behaviour over the years here and internationaly, a well of hatred that run very deep.


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    #1170
    youreadthat
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭youreadthat


    wendell borton wrote: »
    Listened to a Intersting interview of Cruel Britannia Author Ian Cobain by pat kenny during the week about GB's use of torture.
    The british army are world leaders in torture. They perfected it from the boer war to after WWII. They used these skills to try to hold onto their crumpling empire indiscremently, they even tortured Barack Obama's grandfather in kenya.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/nov/04/cruel-britannia-ian-cobain-review

    Maybe before you wear a symbol you shold make sure you know what it represents. The british army have created, through their own behaviour over the years here and internationaly, a well of hatred that run very deep.

    Comparing different situations in the same era with different eras, kind of a fail.


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    #1171
    wendell borton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    youreadthat wrote: »
    Comparing different situations in the same era with different eras, kind of a fail.

    Different eras all right but the brutality and oppresion remains the same.


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