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Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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  • #602
    corkoian
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 138 ✭✭corkoian


    Any chance of the network being separated from the service side of things, somewhat like there being ESB Networks and Electric Ireland. That way it would open up the lines to competition, maybe even the operator in NI would expand south! I agree with a earlier poster, IE need to use a more direct business structure similar to Ryanair. Personally i would love to have an opportunity to run IE for a year and or two and turn the company around!

    One system that i believe could work in ireland would be similar to this,
    http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&biw=1280&bih=892&tbm=isch&tbnid=ppwXEKW4fplrrM:&imgrefurl=http://www.metrans.org/research/final/01-16_Final.htm&docid=L39d5Ioqy1Iy4M&imgurl=http://www.metrans.org/research/final/01-16_Final_files/image012.jpg&w=442&h=289&ei=6UOYUN7lEcjAhAfVg4H4Bg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=379&vpy=150&dur=301&hovh=181&hovw=278&tx=123&ty=97&sig=111935615269839850093&page=1&tbnh=123&tbnw=188&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:75

    Have lines running to all the major ports and connect them to the main line so once cargo is loaded onto the train at the port, it doesn't need to be touched again till its being unloaded at the nearest unloading depot to its desired location

    Btw i find it a bit ironic that any adds I've seen on this thread have been IE advertising Cork to Dublin €21.99


  • #603
    LeftBlank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭LeftBlank


    dukedalton wrote: »
    petrol prices are sky high. If Irish Rail can't turn a profit now, they never will!

    ...because Irish Rail get their fuel for free, right?


  • #604
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    It'd be interesting to see the fuel usage per KM for the MK4, Enterprise and 22000s.


  • #605
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The Fare is how much it Costs and the Cost of the Fare is the Price that you have to pay for it ;)
    Ah...and the pellet with the poison is in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace holds the brew that is true... :)


  • #606
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    corkoian wrote: »
    One system that i believe could work in ireland would be similar to this,
    ]

    Have lines running to all the major ports and connect them to the main line so once cargo is loaded onto the train at the port, it doesn't need to be touched again till its being unloaded at the nearest unloading depot to its desired location



    that appears to be a road based system. Not likely to find a lot of support in here!


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  • #607
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Galway to Dublin is €14.99 each way on line if booked 3 days in advanced. Thats not bad at all.

    €33 return when you include booking and credit card fess.

    Versus €20 on the bus which is actually faster and has much better and more frequent schedule.

    The differences on the Cork route are even more significant.

    Best case scenario, book 3 days in advance:
    Irish Rail €47 Aircoach €18

    1 or 2 days in advance:
    Irish Rail €69 Aircoach €18

    1 hour in advance:
    Irish Rail €91 GoBE €20 *

    Walk up:
    Irish Rail €77 Aircoach €22

    * Obviously it doesn't make any sense to get such a ticket, versus just buying a ticket in the station. But this is correct.

    GoBE allow you to buy their cheap online €10 fares online up to 1 hour in advance.

    Also what this doesn't reflect is the much greater flexibility and cheapness of the bus tickets. With the bus, you can buy single tickets and get the same prices as the returns, with the train you end up paying a lot more for single tickets.

    As an example, a few weeks ago I bought a €9 Aircoach ticket down to Cork and then a few days later 2 hours in advance bought a €10 GoBE ticket back.

    To be honest with this sort of massive price difference and vastly superior schedule, IR are stuffed.


  • #608
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,709 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Tickets bought on the day are NOT €91 on the train. When bought as a return the fare falls to the booking office fare rather than twice the individual fares.


  • #609
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Tickets bought on the day are NOT €91 on the train. When bought as a return the fare falls to the booking office fare rather than twice the individual fares.

    Dont forget the cost of the bus/Luas transfers to/from heuston station and the extra time involved which makes the bus options even cheaper and faster.


  • #610
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Tickets bought on the day are NOT €91 on the train. When bought as a return the fare falls to the booking office fare rather than twice the individual fares.

    Yup, just checked, that seems to be the case.

    But still doesn't say anything about the massive gap in all other prices.

    Another comparison.

    Single ticket booked more then 2 hours in advance online * :
    Irish Rail €46 GoBE €10

    Single walk up fair:
    Irish Rail €60 Aircoach/GoBE €15

    4 times or more difference in both cases :eek:

    * Looks like Irish Rails online booking only allows bookings more then two hours in advance. GoBe goes up to more then 1 hour in advance. Citylink to Galway, 15 minutes in advance.


  • #611
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    I cant agree with the opinion that the recession is causing these woes.

    I used to travel home from Maynooth every Friday when in college, 3 years I bought a ticket each Friday to get me to Sligo (30e return) - I never got a seat until Longford, not once. As a student I had just forked out a whopping 33e and found myself sitting in the doorway at the end of the carraige breathing in burning breakpads.
    - This was at the height of the boom.

    It was crap, it is crap now, and crap it ever shall be.

    Thanks be to jaysus for the private bus companies nowadays.


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  • #612
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Online booking closes an hour and a half before the departure time.


  • #613
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Online booking closes an hour and a half before the departure time.

    Which means as it is 11am now, the next hourly train to Cork I can book is the 13:00, 2 hours from now!

    Online booking closing one and a half hours before departure means you could have up to a 2h 29m wait.

    Doesn't look very good compared to a 15 minute wait for Citylink.

    Really there is no technical or operational reason for online booking systems to close so early, other then to potentially screw people out of money with higher walk up fares.


  • #614
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    That wait you mentioned would only be if you booked online at the station.

    Wouldnt the walk up fare for the 13:00 be the same as whats quoted online now?


  • #615
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,270 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    bk wrote: »
    Which means as it is 11am now, the next hourly train to Cork I can book is the 13:00, 2 hours from now!

    Online booking closing one and a half hours before departure means you could have up to a 2h 29m wait.

    Doesn't look very good compared to a 15 minute wait for Citylink.

    Really there is no technical or operational reason for online booking systems to close so early, other then to potentially screw people out of money with higher walk up fares.

    In all fairness, a 90 minute cut off time is very generous on the passengers side. A Cork count train is arriving into Dublin just 45 minutes before it leaves again so some chance is needed to load up booked seats as soon as is possible before it board again.

    Most people who would need a bus or train at such short notice would be en route to the station 90 minutes before departure time so getting online to book isn't going to be realistic.


  • #616
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    That wait you mentioned would only be if you booked online at the station.

    Wouldnt the walk up fare for the 13:00 be the same as whats quoted online now?

    Not necessarily, A single booked online on the day would be €46 versus €60 walk up.

    For a return it would be the same.
    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    In all fairness, a 90 minute cut off time is very generous on the passengers side. A Cork count train is arriving into Dublin just 45 minutes before it leaves again so some chance is needed to load up booked seats as soon as is possible before it board again.

    Err, it really shouldn't take more then seconds to load up the passenger names. This should be highly automated.

    If not, then that is a problem in it self that should be resolved.
    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Most people who would need a bus or train at such short notice would be en route to the station 90 minutes before departure time so getting online to book isn't going to be realistic.

    That is old Irish Rail train thinking. Since Aircoach started I pretty much leave 30 to 45 minutes prior to departure and just buy the ticket on the bus. I would need even less time if I worked in the city center.

    It isn't so much "needing" the bus on short notice. I know I'll probably head down to Cork this weekend. It is more not sure what time I will go, which can change depending on how work is going or if there is something on in the city that I hear about last minute.

    This is why Aircoach/GoBE have turned out to be such an exciting service for me. Not only are they up to 4 times cheaper, but they also allow a great deal of flexibility that was simply never possible with Irish Rail.


  • #617
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    bk wrote: »
    Not necessarily, A single booked online on the day would be €46 versus €60 walk up.

    For a return it would be the same.



    Err, it really shouldn't take more then seconds to load up the passenger names. This should be highly automated.

    If not, then that is a problem in it self that should be resolved.



    That is old Irish Rail train thinking. Since Aircoach started I pretty much leave 30 to 45 minutes prior to departure and just buy the ticket on the bus. I would need even less time if I worked in the city center.

    It isn't so much "needing" the bus on short notice. I know I'll probably head down to Cork this weekend. It is more not sure what time I will go, which can change depending on how work is going or if there is something on in the city that I hear about last minute.

    This is why Aircoach/GoBE have turned out to be such an exciting service for me. Not only are they up to 4 times cheaper, but they also allow a great deal of flexibility that was simply never possible with Irish Rail.

    Cant you do that with the train as well but buying the ticket from the booking office or the machine rather than the train?

    What do you mean about flexibility? are the buses running to a timetable as well? I would think people choose which service suits them better at the time they want to travel at. If a bus and the train leaves at the same time and arrives at the same time then the cheaper option would win all the time .
    If i was going into the city centre then id get the bus as the stop is closer but depending on the time of day and traffic it could take twice the time the train would take . If i was going to somewhere along the dart line then i would take the train into town and then the dart out, but if there was a bus direct there from where i am then id would take that. I look at my options first before deciding which mode of transport i take.


  • #618
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Cant you do that with the train as well but buying the ticket from the booking office or the machine rather than the train?

    Sure, at 4 times the cost!!
    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    What do you mean about flexibility?

    A few different things:

    1) Departure every 30 minutes (GoBE + Aircoach) versus every hour.
    2) Departures throughout the night, 10, 11, 12, 1am, 3am, 5am, etc. The last train ex-Cork is 8:30 and ex-Dublin 9:00
    3) Being able to buy very cheap tickets last minute. €15 walk up fare versus €60 by rail :eek:
    4) Cheap single tickets (as low as €9), giving you the flexibility to leave the decision of your return date and time till later.
    5) Far greater flexibility in Aircoaches online booked ticket. While a booked ticket guarantees you a seat on the bus booked, you can use it on any earlier or later bus the same day if their is space. The return portion is an unlimited return ticket, use any date.

    I think for many people who talk about train versus bus here on this forum, it is all just theory to them. As a Corkonian living in Dublin, who has been using trains for the past 10 years and the bus for the past few months now, it is reality. And the reality is that the new coach services are offering a revolutionary service for people like me.

    I've gone from going down to Cork max once a month, on a very defined pre-booked schedule, on the train, to going minimum twice a month, often once a week, leaving pretty much last minute on the day in question, based on my friends telling me about events happening, etc. on the coach.

    That is what I mean by flexibility.
    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    I would think people choose which service suits them better at the time they want to travel at. If a bus and the train leaves at the same time and arrives at the same time then the cheaper option would win all the time .

    Yup and that is pretty much exactly what is happening. Well strictly speaking to Cork the train is 15 minutes faster. But when you take into account the time to get to and from Hueston it actually works out slower and up to 4 times more expensive.
    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    If i was going into the city centre then id get the bus as the stop is closer but depending on the time of day and traffic it could take twice the time the train would take . If i was going to somewhere along the dart line then i would take the train into town and then the dart out, but if there was a bus direct there from where i am then id would take that. I look at my options first before deciding which mode of transport i take.

    Of course, you make a rational decision on what is best for you based on your needs of journey time, schedule, comfort, convenience and price.

    That is always what I'm trying to say on this forum. I don't hate rail and love buses, frankly I couldn't care less about either of them. I only care about getting from a to b in the cheapest, fastest and most comfortable means possible. Just like most people.


  • #619
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Fair play to you, your post closes that argument :). Hard to argue against that.


  • #620
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    intellectual dosser wrote: »
    I cant agree with the opinion that the recession is causing these woes.

    I used to travel home from Maynooth every Friday when in college, 3 years I bought a ticket each Friday to get me to Sligo (30e return) - I never got a seat until Longford, not once. As a student I had just forked out a whopping 33e and found myself sitting in the doorway at the end of the carraige breathing in burning breakpads.
    - This was at the height of the boom.

    It was crap, it is crap now, and crap it ever shall be.

    Thanks be to jaysus for the private bus companies nowadays.

    and there you have it....WHO is going to fork out up to 4 times the cost and not even have a guaranteed seat?

    Even Ryanair give sell you a seat!


  • #621
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    intellectual dosser wrote: »
    I cant agree with the opinion that the recession is causing these woes.

    I used to travel home from Maynooth every Friday when in college, 3 years I bought a ticket each Friday to get me to Sligo (30e return) - I never got a seat until Longford, not once. As a student I had just forked out a whopping 33e and found myself sitting in the doorway at the end of the carraige breathing in burning breakpads.
    - This was at the height of the boom.

    It was crap, it is crap now, and crap it ever shall be.

    Thanks be to jaysus for the private bus companies nowadays.

    €30 return? €15 each way from Maynooth to Sligo? Whats wrong with that? on a friday which is the busiest day of the week. If you couldnt get on at Maynooth because of all the seats being taken then you would have complained again.
    Its only €20 for a student now from Dublin to Sligo return.


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  • #622
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,709 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Presumably that tale of woe was prior to the train service being increased to eight trains per day on the Sligo line?


  • #623
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    €30 return? €15 each way from Maynooth to Sligo? Whats wrong with that? on a friday which is the busiest day of the week. If you couldnt get on at Maynooth because of all the seats being taken then you would have complained again.
    Its only €20 for a student now from Dublin to Sligo return.

    The correct answer to this problem is: Put on more carriages or stop charging people the same fare for seats they don't get. But that was never going to happen.

    You're right that I would have complained all the same - because the situation you describe is a service completely unfit for purpose.

    My local council told me that the Sligo to Dublin service was better than ever with 7 daily departures. What good is an 11am departure on a Tuesday to people sitting on each other on Friday evening.


  • #624
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,709 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Was this after the introduction of trains at 1505, 1600, 1705 and 1905 from Connolly to Sligo plus the 3 trains to Longford, or are you talking about when there were just the two evening trains to Sligo and one to Longford?


  • #625
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Presumably that tale of woe was prior to the train service being increased to eight trains per day on the Sligo line?

    And prior to the greatly increased demand from people living in Longford, Mullingar, Enfield and Kilcock.

    Unfortunately the increase in seats and services does not match the increase in demand for peak time service. Yes I know that there is also one or two trains a day to Longford in the evening but this still does not make the Sligo service any better than it was 25 years ago except that the trains are more reliable and have heating and are a lot more comfortable than the knackered old Loco-hauled cattle carts that used to operate on the line.


  • #626
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Was this after the introduction of trains at 1505, 1600, 1705 and 1905 from Connolly to Sligo plus the 3 trains to Longford, or are you talking about when there were just the two evening trains to Sligo and one to Longford?

    I think in my final year they had introduced those departures and there was some relief, but the problem was still there for many.

    I havent used the service since 2009.


  • #627
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Irish Rail are failing because of fares structuring which is antiquated and buried in the past like the railways - the day return fare from Kildare to Heuston is €22.70 while the day return from Carlow is only €17!


  • #628
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    antiquated and buried in the past like the railways
    the exact same railway you use on occasions, busses and cars are also antiquated considering the speeds on our motorways are stoneage speeds, they said the same about the trams in dublin which were electric and replaced them with rickity smelly busses (they were that time) so fail as per usual foggy.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #629
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    the knackered old Loco-hauled cattle carts that used to operate on the line.
    which their were only a few a day compared to now. i'd call the trains now cattle carts more then the lovely comfortable mark 2, cravens, and mark 3 stock that used to operate, sure the mark 2 and cravens were knackered from bad maintenence but still passengers on rosslare services would have been glad to have them longer over the rickity 2700 railcars which replaced them.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #630
    sligotrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭sligotrain


    The Cravens were life expired. I know there's plenty of folk who get their hots from loco-hauled carriage stock but those carriages were nearly 50 years old, as are the locos that hauled them. What's wrong with Irish Rail is that the line speeds need to be increased, and more passing places need to be installed to allow a higher frequency of trains.

    Heaven forbid we even think about doubling the line completely from Bray to Rosslare as well.


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  • #631
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    sligotrain wrote: »
    The Cravens were life expired. I know there's plenty of folk who get their hots from loco-hauled carriage stock but those carriages were nearly 50 years old, as are the locos that hauled them. What's wrong with Irish Rail is that the line speeds need to be increased, and more passing places need to be installed to allow a higher frequency of trains.

    Heaven forbid we even think about doubling the line completely from Bray to Rosslare as well.

    How on earth would that be physically or financially possible? The cost relative to the numbers travelling from a handful of small towns would be outrageous.


This discussion has been closed.
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