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How to revive the Irish language.

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Comments

  • #1202
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    oldmangrub wrote: »
    Not disagreeing with your entitlement there but why would you consider anglicized latin superior to gaelicized latin? I have a relative who moved towns and went from a Gaelscoil to a community school and he didn't mention any difficulty comprehending.
    Anyone know if the scientific vocabulary is that different?
    No i don't. And i'm glad you don't disagree with my entitlement. A shoacking number of people do.


  • #1203
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,105 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I have known for many years since I became a past pupil from secondary school having done all the required exams 2 years ago, that students studying Irish in both primary & secondary schools can apply for an exemption in both levels, but this applies to them in limited circumstances.

    Namely, it is either through having specific disabilities or if they are foreign nationals.

    This applies to students who are studying from the Junior Cert, Transition Year and, surprise surprise, the Leaving Certificate Applied programmes. Those who have been granted an exemption from Irish can go on to have extra study in other subjects.

    I was also told by a teacher/guidance counselor in the school who is now retired, that applicants now need a entry requirement of at least a C3 in Higher Level Irish in Leaving Certificate level, who would consider studying a PLC course in Primary Teaching.

    And I am not putting only education on this topic, the area of transport is another issue is of concern to me, regarding the OLA and reporting to DCC and NTA on the new bus fleet for Dublin Bus.

    Here are some single posts that I have read regarding the two issues in transport.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80605867&postcount=122

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80607307&postcount=125


  • #1204
    oldmangrub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66 ✭✭oldmangrub


    condra wrote: »

    The Irish language should die off gracefully, just like the biased, mostly bigoted, conservative, religious, nationalist, shower of backwards culchie goons that support it.

    This is the worst kind of bigotry there is; it's blatant but because you're taking what you consider a populist point of view, you can say whatever you want about people and make whatever generalisations you want. We could put your perspective in many places in many times in history and know exactly how you would behave.
    Irish-speakers range from Orthodox to atheist. Fine Gael are the most right-wing and anti-Irish party. An Irish speaker's identity is grounded mostly in a language and the cultural inheritances therein, not a sense of being "different from Britain" or independent. Cultural "nationalism", if it wasn't the case that if anything speaking Gaeilge makes you less Irish. Political nationalism is not so significant. I would never call any Irish-hater a "West Brit" because frankly, the British haven't been that ignorant in about a century. People with your point of view are a product of our tragic past and our twisted politics moreso than people who speak and love Irish. What are you on about?
    Finally, look at this thread and see where the bigotry is coming from. In all seriousness, Irish-speakers are conservative bigots? Have you not read all the posts here completely based on right-wing and/or bigoted principles? "Goon" is just a bigoted term commonly used by anti-Gaelic snobs, it means nothing but it's a way for yourself and others to attack people. Seriously who the fcuk calls people a "goon"? It's about as articulate and abusive as calling an African a "black".
    People like you don't learn Irish. Lots of people who don't learn Irish aren't like you, I'm sure there are a teeny tiney number of Gaeltachters who might be like you, but in all fairness, people like you do not learn Irish. What could it possibly offer them?


  • #1205
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭indioblack


    oldmangrub wrote: »
    This is the worst kind of bigotry there is; it's blatant but because you're taking what you consider a populist point of view, you can say whatever you want about people and make whatever generalisations you want. We could put your perspective in many places in many times in history and know exactly how you would behave.
    Irish-speakers range from Orthodox to atheist. Fine Gael are the most right-wing and anti-Irish party. An Irish speaker's identity is grounded mostly in a language and the cultural inheritances therein, not a sense of being "different from Britain" or independent. Cultural "nationalism", if it wasn't the case that if anything speaking Gaeilge makes you less Irish. Political nationalism is not so significant. I would never call any Irish-hater a "West Brit" because frankly, the British haven't been that ignorant in about a century. People with your point of view are a product of our tragic past and our twisted politics moreso than people who speak and love Irish. What are you on about?
    Finally, look at this thread and see where the bigotry is coming from. In all seriousness, Irish-speakers are conservative bigots? Have you not read all the posts here completely based on right-wing and/or bigoted principles? "Goon" is just a bigoted term commonly used by anti-Gaelic snobs, it means nothing but it's a way for yourself and others to attack people. Seriously who the fcuk calls people a "goon"? It's about as articulate and abusive as calling an African a "black".
    People like you don't learn Irish. Lots of people who don't learn Irish aren't like you, I'm sure there are a teeny tiney number of Gaeltachters who might be like you, but in all fairness, people like you do not learn Irish. What could it possibly offer them?

    It's been pointed out in this thread, many times, that the majority of people in Ireland have voted with their feet, (or in this case , their mouths), that they choose not to speak Irish.
    Notwithstanding all other pressures or inducements, and though they definitely want the language to remain - they themselves have no wish to learn it.
    Put simply, if you want children to learn Irish, there will have to be one generation of adults who will have to learn it to pass it on.
    The longer threads like this go on, the more desperate and convoluted the arguements become to try and get a population to learn a language that wouldn't have been so difficult to keep in the first place, had they wished to - and that could have been learned in the last century once the dreaded English were gone.


  • #1206
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    indioblack wrote: »
    It's been pointed out in this thread, many times, that the majority of people in Ireland have voted with their feet, (or in this case , their mouths), that they choose not to speak Irish.
    Notwithstanding all other pressures or inducements, and though they definitely want the language to remain - they themselves have no wish to learn it.
    Put simply, if you want children to learn Irish, there will have to be one generation of adults who will have to learn it to pass it on.
    The longer threads like this go on, the more desperate and convoluted the arguements become to try and get a population to learn a language that wouldn't have been so difficult to keep in the first place, had they wished to - and that could have been learned in the last century once the dreaded English were gone.


    This whole voted with their feet argument is a bit of a falicy, it assumes that for the average Irish person, choosing Irish or choosing English are relativly equal options. Thats plainly not true, when you can't speak a language, you can hardly 'choose' it as easily as a language you can speak. As for learning a language, that is quite a serious undertaking requireing time, money and lots of commitment, thats any language not just Irish.
    Suggesting that at the foundation of the state, the population as a whole would have been able to switch language from English to Irish shows a serious lack of understanding of the process of language shift and the soceio-economic conditions pertaining to the Language at the time.

    To put it simply, Irish did'nt decline because people voted with their feet and chose English, it declined because for quite some time, you were more likely to die of starvation or be forced to emigrate in you spoke Irish than if you spoke English. This left a lasting impression and the poverty associated with the language built up a powerfull stigma and shame on those that spoke it, a stigma that was still strongly felt in many areas when the state was founded.


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  • #1207
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭indioblack


    An Coilean wrote: »
    This whole voted with their feet argument is a bit of a falicy, it assumes that for the average Irish person, choosing Irish or choosing English are relativly equal options. Thats plainly not true, when you can't speak a language, you can hardly 'choose' it as easily as a language you can speak. As for learning a language, that is quite a serious undertaking requireing time, money and lots of commitment, thats any language not just Irish.
    Suggesting that at the foundation of the state, the population as a whole would have been able to switch language from English to Irish shows a serious lack of understanding of the process of language shift and the soceio-economic conditions pertaining to the Language at the time.

    To put it simply, Irish did'nt decline because people voted with their feet and chose English, it declined because for quite some time, you were more likely to die of starvation or be forced to emigrate in you spoke Irish than if you spoke English. This left a lasting impression and the poverty associated with the language built up a powerfull stigma and shame on those that spoke it, a stigma that was still strongly felt in many areas when the state was founded.

    OK, good reply - I am well rebuked.
    Your post made me think, despite my serious lack of understanding, that there must me more present-day factors inhibiting a revival.
    I would point out that I went back only into the last century with my remarks and not before.
    From this thread it might be possible to construe that any revival would be a slow accretion rather than my simplistic notion of a whole raft of people suddenly deciding to learn the language.
    So much of this thread has been about if there should be a revival.
    For those who say there should be one the stumbling block seems to be the practical business of how to do it.
    A lot of this probably comes down to time - the protagonists of revival may have to be content with watching the seeding of re-growth - in other words it's going to take a long time.


  • #1208
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    indioblack wrote: »
    OK, good reply - I am well rebuked.
    Your post made me think, despite my serious lack of understanding, that there must me more present-day factors inhibiting a revival.
    I would point out that I went back only into the last century with my remarks and not before.
    From this thread it might be possible to construe that any revival would be a slow accretion rather than my simplistic notion of a whole raft of people suddenly deciding to learn the language.
    So much of this thread has been about if there should be a revival.
    For those who say there should be one the stumbling block seems to be the practical business of how to do it.
    A lot of this probably comes down to time - the protagonists of revival may have to be content with watching the seeding of re-growth - in other words it's going to take a long time.



    :eek::):eek:

    Sir, I salute you.

    This is exactly what I have been getting at.
    There are indeed many factors, but revival is not necessarily being inhibeted. The foundation of the state did not reset the clock, the language was in a trend of major decline, that did not stop overnight with the foundation of the state, the factors that caused that decline, poverity and isolation in the areas where Irish was spoken, as well as the already mentiond stigma attached to the language, one most acutely felt by those from those areas, remained for many years after the new state was set up, it was not untill the 60's that they began to disapate, and since then decline has slowed and for the most part halted.

    The process of revival is actually relativly straight forward, all that is needed is opportunity, money and demand.

    Opportunity for those who can speak the language to actually use it, this includes events organised by the Language Movement its self, things like RnaG and TG4, as well as being able to use the Language when dealing with the state, In the 40's/50's and before, you had to learn Irish in school if you wanted a Leaving Cert, if you wanted a job in the Civil Service you had to have Irish, but god forbid you actually tried to use it, that was a no no, thats where the OLA comes in.

    Money, obviously enough, nothing can run on good will alone, now plenty of government spending on Irish(much like anything) is wide open to criticism, but at least funding is available, and with more stringint times, the money that is spent is at least starting to get directed to more useful applications.

    Demand, finaly and most importantly, despite what many might like to believe, the demand is there for Irish, thinking that unless people go out and learn the language themselves then there is no demand for it is false thinking. Learning a language is an undertaking, most people have priorities, putting food on the table and keeping a roof over their head score fairly high, and unless learning a language is needed for that, then it is likely to be left by the wayside.
    That said, given the opportunity, the demand is there, this can be seen in the demand for Gaelscoils, parents might not have the time to learn the language themselves, but they want their kids to have it, parents always want to give their kids opportunities they did'nt have themselves, and the demand for gaelscoils shows the value many place on the Language.

    Any revival will be slow and progressive, language shift is something that is measured in Generations, not years.


  • #1209
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭indioblack


    An Coilean wrote: »
    :eek::):eek:

    Sir, I salute you.

    This is exactly what I have been getting at.
    There are indeed many factors, but revival is not necessarily being inhibeted. The foundation of the state did not reset the clock, the language was in a trend of major decline, that did not stop overnight with the foundation of the state, the factors that caused that decline, poverity and isolation in the areas where Irish was spoken, as well as the already mentiond stigma attached to the language, one most acutely felt by those from those areas, remained for many years after the new state was set up, it was not untill the 60's that they began to disapate, and since then decline has slowed and for the most part halted.

    The process of revival is actually relativly straight forward, all that is needed is opportunity, money and demand.

    Opportunity for those who can speak the language to actually use it, this includes events organised by the Language Movement its self, things like RnaG and TG4, as well as being able to use the Language when dealing with the state, In the 40's/50's and before, you had to learn Irish in school if you wanted a Leaving Cert, if you wanted a job in the Civil Service you had to have Irish, but god forbid you actually tried to use it, that was a no no, thats where the OLA comes in.

    Money, obviously enough, nothing can run on good will alone, now plenty of government spending on Irish(much like anything) is wide open to criticism, but at least funding is available, and with more stringint times, the money that is spent is at least starting to get directed to more useful applications.

    Demand, finaly and most importantly, despite what many might like to believe, the demand is there for Irish, thinking that unless people go out and learn the language themselves then there is no demand for it is false thinking. Learning a language is an undertaking, most people have priorities, putting food on the table and keeping a roof over their head score fairly high, and unless learning a language is needed for that, then it is likely to be left by the wayside.
    That said, given the opportunity, the demand is there, this can be seen in the demand for Gaelscoils, parents might not have the time to learn the language themselves, but they want their kids to have it, parents always want to give their kids opportunities they did'nt have themselves, and the demand for gaelscoils shows the value many place on the Language.

    Any revival will be slow and progressive, language shift is something that is measured in Generations, not years.

    Thanks for that.
    There have been a few of these threads - they probably start when one person becomes impatient with their perception of a lack of advancement in this business.
    My attitude has been influenced by the sense of apathy I've observed in talking to a few people - I'm inclined to turn on them and say, "if the language is so important to you, go and learn it!"
    I know it's not as simple as that, despite my previous posts.
    But an impatient attitude is understandable.
    There is one agency that can cover the three elements you mentioned - the government.
    As you've said, they can provide finance - hopefully with more accuracy than they have appeared to have done in the past.
    They can address themselves to providing increased opportunity.
    They can encourage demand.
    All this would require that the politicians responsible pay attention to this business, rather than give lip-service to it.
    A long term undertaking - with the danger that it could fall into the category of "out of sight, out of mind."
    My responses to your three points were, understandably, generalisations.
    This would be another danger - that this business would drift into impractical wish-fulfillment.
    So it would require, as you've said, a long time, generations, but also a need to maintain attention - to keep alert.
    Incidentally, fill me in on why there was a stigma attached to Irish after independance - why wasn't it the opposite?


  • #1210
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Any revival will be slow and progressive, language shift is something that is measured in Generations, not years.
    Just as nobody hates 'mom and apple pie', nobody hates Irish. That's why it's so easy to author a survey to get favourable anwsers. It's quite easy to to get someone to say that they like the concept of Irish being retained or promoted. This requires no personal effort.

    No survey has asked English-speakers if they want Irish revived, or if they want it to be restored as common language of Ireland nor what they personally would be prepared to do (and pay) to bring this about.


  • #1211
    John Doe1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭John Doe1


    Have a hunger games type scenario where 12 children from each county are chosen at random and they then each assessed on their fluency, only the best child will survive.:D


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  • #1212
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    John Doe1 wrote: »
    Have a hunger games type scenario where 12 children from each county are chosen at random and they then each assessed on their fluency, only the best child will survive.:D
    I can just hear SF complaining that the north isn't included and Bertie telling them to whist up about cavan. :)


  • #1213
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    I think we'd be much better off dropping the Irish language and having our kids spend that same time learning things that are actually useful.

    Language is important for communicating; but there is very little benefit in learning English and Irish.

    That time could be better spent on productive activities. Maybe a nice uptick in science/math in the educational system to fill the skilled labour shortages we have.


  • #1214
    Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 133 ✭✭Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain


    UCDVet wrote: »
    I think we'd be much better off dropping the Irish language and having our kids spend that same time learning things that are actually useful.

    Language is important for communicating; but there is very little benefit in learning English and Irish.

    That time could be better spent on productive activities. Maybe a nice uptick in science/math in the educational system to fill the skilled labour shortages we have.

    How about art, music, etc. They're not really useful either. I mean, you don't need art in order to get by in life. What about history? You don't need history either so get rid of that too.

    You should tell Irish speakers that there is little benefit to them speaking their language and they will tell you otherwise. Just because you don't speak it or like it doesn't mean that it's useless.


  • #1215
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    I don't want the Irish language revived. Leave it to people to decide if they are interested in it or not.


  • #1216
    Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 133 ✭✭Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain


    woodoo wrote: »
    I don't want the Irish language revived. Leave it to people to decide if they are interested in it or not.

    You say you don't want it to be revived. Does it annoy you when you hear it on Radio/TV or see people making an effort to revive it?


  • #1217
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »
    You should tell Irish speakers that there is little benefit to them speaking their language and they will tell you otherwise.
    Indeed, it's their language.


  • #1218
    Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 133 ✭✭Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain


    opti0nal wrote: »
    Indeed, it's their language.

    Huh? Don't get you.


  • #1219
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »
    Huh? Don't get you.
    Jesus, for someone that seems to want people to give the Irish language a break, you're really not doing your case any favours with that fucking monstrosity of a username.


  • #1220
    Stained Class
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭Stained Class


    TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »
    How about art, music, etc. They're not really useful either. I mean, you don't need art in order to get by in life. What about history? You don't need history either so get rid of that too.

    You should tell Irish speakers that there is little benefit to them speaking their language and they will tell you otherwise. Just because you don't speak it or like it doesn't mean that it's useless.

    Irish music & art are part of the backbone of the Tourism industry here, as are Gaelic games.

    The Irish language is too.

    Thing is, is that, the Irish language is heavily subsudised by the state & most kids here are compelled to learn it.

    This causes an awful lot of resentment towards it.

    Why don't the Irish language fanatics get this into their heads?:confused:

    That they've done all the damage already, with their pernickity attitude & general disregard to the rest of the population that pays for their Hobbyhorse.


  • #1221
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »
    Huh? Don't get you.
    gealgoirs language not everyone elses is what he means.


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  • #1222
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Two Irish language threads, both useless.

    Perhaps people should remove the large chip of their shoulders and make proposals to the Minister, campaign against it, ignore it or embrace it instead of circular nonsensical "debate".


  • #1223
    Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 133 ✭✭Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Jesus, for someone that seems to want people to give the Irish language a break, you're really not doing your case any favours with that fucking monstrosity of a username.

    That "f-ing monstrosity" is my full name.

    Nobody, especially a moderator, should be openly discriminating against someone because their name is in a different language. Be careful.


  • #1224
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »
    That "f-ing monstrosity" is my full name.

    Nobody, especially a moderator, should be openly discriminating against someone because their name is in a different language. Be careful.
    I'm not discriminating against anybody.

    My issue isn't with the language of your name, it's with the fact that you decided to use all caps for a name that is already rather on the lengthy side. Was that entirely necessary?


  • #1225
    Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 133 ✭✭Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain


    Stained Class wrote: »
    Irish music & art are part of the backbone of the Tourism industry here, as are Gaelic games.

    The Irish language is too.

    Thing is, is that, the Irish language is heavily subsudised by the state & most kids here are compelled to learn it.

    This causes an awful lot of resentment towards it.

    Why don't the Irish language fanatics get this into their heads?:confused:

    That they've done all the damage already, with their pernickity attitude & general disregard to the rest of the population that pays for their Hobbyhorse.

    What is your definition of a "fanatic" in relation to the Irish language?


  • #1226
    girl2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 654 ✭✭✭girl2


    TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »
    What is your definition of a "fanatic" in relation to the Irish language?

    I'm sorry dude…but totally unrelated to the Irish language - your username is wrecking the setup of boards on my iPhone.

    Can ya maybe go and change it??

    Thanks in advance :D


  • #1227
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »
    Huh? Don't get you.


    As in their language and not the language of hiberno-Anglophones

    To be honest the education budget needs cuts the most harmless ones would be Irish and Religion.

    Did you see the Documentary 'Inside the Department'? It was about the education department and the Challenges it faces.

    One of the huge issues was that the most pressing issue facing Ireland is our lack of European languages with thousands of jobs outsourced and people brought in not because Irish people are not qualified to do the job but they have no second language.

    English is no longer enough and it never will be again.

    The arguement is often made learning Irish helps learn another language....well if learning Irish heps you learn French...just imagine how learning French will help you learn Spanish....or more realistically if Irish helps you learn French...just imagine how learning actual FRENCH would help you learn French.

    This country facing huge cuts....families with children apparrantly are the most vulnerable to sliding into poverty apparrantly. One in ten homeless people are under fourteen. And Irish speakers are defending ridiculous subsidies to schools and areas that otherwise don't need them on the basis of language. It is immoral at this time. It is incredibly selfish. We need at the momment to be so careful with public money. Especially in education.


    We need to prioritise .....

    Be realistic....how much money has been spent since the history of the state?? Billions??? And what has been achieved??

    Do you know why it has not worked because there are not enough high level native speakers to begin with for people to converse with. There never will be and the reading material such as novels newspapers is not developed enough. Once a language is dying it is very difficult if not impossible to really revive it.

    As regards the equivalence you previously used with art and music...well imagine if you HAD poured as much money into the arts and music.. it would have made for an arts budget that over supplied demand. And music an the arts HAVE a mainsteam audience. There is no mainstream audience for Irish.


    I am not saying ban it..but in this economy we need to start immersing students in European languages from the day they start primary school.


    It really is not possible for people to learn a language with great fluency with the numebrs of speakers there are. There was a study done by a linguist about 'Dublin Irish' that found the level of Irish spoken by people even on RTE in DUblin and from the Gaelscoils...is terribly poor and not a real dialect....they hypothesised that a real revival is actually probably technically impossible.

    I think asking for funding for it at the momment is incredibly cold, stupid and the worst kind of nationalism.

    Anyone who thinks today that Irish people are not better off for Speaking English is crazy if you asked parents what they would like to see invested in more Irish or serious investment in German where the actual JOBS of the future may lie they would be pragmatic.

    We don't have the time on life to learn everything ....and life is not going to get less busy....we should focus on other languages.


    Think about it organisations like the GAA revied sports...PRIVATE ORGANISATIONS AND SOCIETIES are great for this kind of thing.

    I don't think there is any langauge in the world (or many anyway) that came back from near extinction.


    Here is a fascinating lecture on the Irish langauge demise and revival attempts and the most interesting topic 'Urban Irish'
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E-K9-GCJOk&feature=relmfu

    His Urban Irish language linguistic analysis is amazing and fascinating. He makes rhe point that if the language is not spoken by a native to a child the child will not be able to learn it...but will have to learn it in a class as a second language...Urban Irish is an unstable language...and the different frequency of error level makes communication difficult and the brain of new speakers will not be able to pick it up....

    He says that the fact that English speakers learning it are changing the pronounciation and grammar and have been doing this for years...and he says that people who learn Irish even in the gaelscoils are not speaking actual Irish but are speaking a 'Pidgeon' Irish language...and this is impossible to pass on as communicating in a grammatically flawed language is difficult and the brain does not work that way...It is not 'REAL IRISH ' that people who speak it as a second language are speaking..and you cannot learn Irish unless you learn in the gealtacht.

    The revival is actually part of what is murdering the real language.

    On the other hand ...yes language changes..but it has to change in a standardised way..which it can only do with a large number of students

    There is a real lack of semantic sophistication amongs Anlgo-phone Irish speakers

    And the last generation of native isolated speakers is dying the Gaeltacht is shrinking...these non standard pidgeons will rise and make communication harder with the lack of grammatical structure
    The main problem is people are trying to revive it as a second language ...which is near impossible really whilst still retaining lingusitic purity and standards..and of course we must keep English as our mother tongue

    Irish speakers in a town are usually the only Irish speaker for a distance...you have to travel to speak it...


    No language revival movement is usually sucessful..the only example i can think of is Hebrew


    To be honest some do get irrated by the funds given and subsidies while their passions or interests remain underfunded...we give far more to Irish than we do to music or the arts ..or much else in Irish education...

    I find some gaelgoirs selfish in their passion.

    I have nothing against people speaking it...but some are living in an alternate reality.

    This also is about some of the challenges to preserving the standard of the language in the gaeltacht itself

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5cvPskVm3Y

    Maybe it should be revived soley through the passing of stories (watch the second clip to get it) orally only from native speakers ....through the learning of stories


  • #1228
    Stained Class
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭Stained Class


    TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »
    What is your definition of a "fanatic" in relation to the Irish language?

    Somebody who creates a financial/social problem that the rest of us can do without.

    I'm not perfect, but I'm not going to put my hobbies or intrests ahead of the good of this country or of it's people.

    Ironically, that makes me more of a Patriot that the likes of you.


  • #1229
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    Stained Class wrote: »
    Somebody who creates a financial/social problem that the rest of us can do without.

    I'm not perfect, but I'm not going to put my hobbies or intrests ahead of the good of this country or of it's people.

    Ironically, that makes me more of a Patriot that the likes of you.

    Well put...

    Support the Irish language ...but not by draining financial resources when we need them most....

    You know maybe as a social grass roots movement it would have more sucess


  • #1230
    Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 133 ✭✭Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain


    I think my views are similar to many people here, but they just jump down my throat once they see that my name is Irish and I have a positive view on the language. :)

    I know several parents who have just been turned away from Gaelscoils because there is such a long waiting list. The demand is huge, but the resources aren't. Now, if those resources wasted on 14 years of mandatory Irish could be channelled into new Gaelcsoils, we would be in a much better situation.

    That's pretty much my view on it, and I don't think it's unreasonable.

    I think many people here need to get a punching bag or take a jog because clearly the language issue is far to emotive to handle and they end up saying silly things on the internet. :)


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  • #1231
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    Support the Irish language ...but not by draining financial resources when we need them most....

    indeed, according to the last census, only 77,185 people speak Irish on a daily basis (outside the classroom), take away the public sector workers who have to for their job, you've probably got about 1% of the population speaking Irish regularly by choice.


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