How to revive the Irish language.

Grayson

Dude, You're ignoring the point. You said I wasn't in the west at all. My family are from there.

The reason I mention Dungloe being 45 mins to an hour is because that's a journey that's in the same county. It's not even the length of the county. And Dungloe is still 5 hours from Dublin by bus. And there are no trains. These are places where a 4 mile journey can take 20 minutes.
This is a journey that would take far less time in any other country.

And it is a discussion about the nations roads. I said that these places are remote and isolated. That refers to how hard it is to get there and how long it takes. You haven't argued against that.

If you want irish to make a comeback you need to invest in the existing community and make sure it becomes a viable economic community in it's own right.

In many ways these places are becoming more accessable. The reason irish survived there when it dies out in other areas centuries before is because they were remote. But now that they are less so, they are suffering from outward migration. People move from there because they get better opportunities elsewhere in the country. At the same time, they are still remote enough that there isn't enough inward investment. Jobs aren't being created which would keep a young irish speaking population there.

Our two options are either
1) stop anyone from leaving there. Create a type of penal colony.
2) Invest in the area so that less people will leave and others will move there.

opti0nal

Grayson wrote: »

If you want irish to make a comeback you need to invest in the existing community and make sure it becomes a viable economic community in it's own right. ...Our two options are either
1) stop anyone from leaving there. Create a type of penal colony.
2) Invest in the area so that less people will leave and others will move there.

Careful there. One of the acknowledged reasons for the decline of Irish speaking in Gaeltacht areas is the influx of English-speakers attracted by the new industries. This led to local Irish-speakers using English more when socialising with their English-speaking co-workers.

Ideally, to preserve the integrity of these Gaeltacts, not only must one prevent Irish-speakers from leaving but also you'd have find some way of restricting the jobs to authentic Irish-speakers and perhaps requiring parents of mixed language heritage to undertake to bring their children up through the medium of Irish.

It sounds like a human-rights minefield.

But then again, the Irish lobby have been able to impose Irish language lessons on English-speaking children for many decades, so perhaps we should not underestimate what they are capable of.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I'm am finished with that, the conversation is still there to be seen if you wish to embarrass yourself.

Yep, anyone who thinks "you tell em boyo" is abusive, deserves condescension (plus pity).

You tell 'em boyo.

Well, put it this way: did you respond to the points he raised? No, you did not.

This is the problem: Someone raises a legitimate point about resoting the language and the best responce one of the more allegedly knowledgeable people on the thread ignores it, deems it ****e and drones out "you tell em boyo".

This, and the converation with An Coilean I had proves the biggest problems with restoring the Irish langauge: those who want to see it reveived, don't want to listen to possibile solutions from outside their own little clique and perceive anything such as an attack. Unable to respond to such, and unable to accept such ideas as possibly havign merit, the onlyroute left is condescention.

Which, let's face it, doesn't really help or contribute to a revival, does it?

Cú Giobach

Grayson wrote: »

Dude, You're ignoring the point. You said I wasn't in the west at all. My family are from there.

The reason I mention Dungloe being 45 mins to an hour is because that's a journey that's in the same county. It's not even the length of the county. And Dungloe is still 5 hours from Dublin by bus. And there are no trains. These are places where a 4 mile journey can take 20 minutes.
This is a journey that would take far less time in any other country.

And it is a discussion about the nations roads. I said that these places are remote and isolated. That refers to how hard it is to get there and how long it takes. You haven't argued against that.

If you want irish to make a comeback you need to invest in the existing community and make sure it becomes a viable economic community in it's own right.

In many ways these places are becoming more accessable. The reason irish survived there when it dies out in other areas centuries before is because they were remote. But now that they are less so, they are suffering from outward migration. People move from there because they get better opportunities elsewhere in the country. At the same time, they are still remote enough that there isn't enough inward investment. Jobs aren't being created which would keep a young irish speaking population there.

Our two options are either
1) stop anyone from leaving there. Create a type of penal colony.
2) Invest in the area so that less people will leave and others will move there.

I picked you up on your exaggerations.

The gaeltachts are isolated, remote and quite poor really. There's no reason to go there except to learn irish. And people who grow up there move away because the irish industry / cottage farming can't support them all and a lot don't want to work in that industry anyway.

Nowhere in Ireland is really remote in this day and age. Your obsession with travel time to Dublin is something very relevant to you but not a measure of remoteness. This seems to be nothing more than a difference of perspective between someone who lives in rural W'Cork and someone who lives in Dublin.
If you knew where I lived you might consider me isolated, I would say I certainly am not.

You have already debunked your own statement saying there is no reason to go there except to learn Irish, by saying the tourist industry isn't dependant on the language.

You totally ignored one of, if not the major industry of the areas with your Irish industry/cottage farming comment.

As I said, my picking up on the above exaggerations is not my saying investment is not needed, nor did I say people were not leaving the areas.
What more can I say?

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Well, put it this way: did you respond to the points he raised? No, you did not.

This is the problem: Someone raises a legitimate point about resoting the language and the best responce one of the more allegedly knowledgeable people on the thread ignores it, deems it ****e and drones out "you tell em boyo".

This, and the converation with An Coilean I had proves the biggest problems with restoring the Irish langauge: those who want to see it reveived, don't want to listen to possibile solutions from outside their own little clique and perceive anything such as an attack. Unable to respond to such, and unable to accept such ideas as possibly havign merit, the onlyroute left is condescention.

Which, let's face it, doesn't really help or contribute to a revival, does it?

Christ will you ever stop your incessant moaning. :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Christ will you ever stop your incessant moaning. :rolleyes:

I see. Well, that kind of proves my point, really...

Debate my points about the inadequacies/strengths of the language revival and the attitudes of those trying to bring it about here, please, and send the cheapshots via PM. Everyone's happy.

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Christ will you ever stop your incessant moaning. :rolleyes:

That sounds very much like what my Irish teacher said before reaching for his leather.

Grayson

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I picked you up on your exaggerations.

Nowhere in Ireland is really remote in this day and age. Your obsession with travel time to Dublin is something very relevant to you but not a measure of remoteness. This seems to be nothing more than a difference of perspective between someone who lives in rural W'Cork and someone who lives in Dublin.
If you knew where I lived you might consider me isolated, I would say I certainly am not.

You have already debunked your own statement saying there is no reason to go there except to learn Irish, by saying the tourist industry isn't dependant on the language.

You totally ignored one of, if not the major industry of the areas with your Irish industry/cottage farming comment.

As I said, my picking up on the above exaggerations is not my saying investment is not needed, nor did I say people were not leaving the areas.
What more can I say?

To get to Mayo from Dublin, the last half of the distance takes more than 2/3rds of the total time. If you want to get anywhere in Donegal, you have to spend ****ing ages. If you live in Achill, the nearest towns are miles away. You have to really travel to get any work that doesn't involve some cottage industry. And tourism is a cottage industry in those areas. There might be big hotels etc... in the major towns, but gaeltachts aren't located in major towns. Their isolation makes them havens for the language but also means that anyone who wants a job outside of the cottage industries there has to move away.

That was my point. If you want to nit pick over details, go ahead, troll away.

Grayson

opti0nal wrote: »

Careful there. One of the acknowledged reasons for the decline of Irish speaking in Gaeltacht areas is the influx of English-speakers attracted by the new industries. This led to local Irish-speakers using English more when socialising with their English-speaking co-workers.

Ideally, to preserve the integrity of these Gaeltacts, not only must one prevent Irish-speakers from leaving but also you'd have find some way of restricting the jobs to authentic Irish-speakers and perhaps requiring parents of mixed language heritage to undertake to bring their children up through the medium of Irish.

It sounds like a human-rights minefield.

But then again, the Irish lobby have been able to impose Irish language lessons on English-speaking children for many decades, so perhaps we should not underestimate what they are capable of.

You're right. But if I don't believe it's possible at all to revive the language in a place like Dublin. Billions could be spent and we'd be at the same place we are now.
If the language is going to be preserved, then the best option is to preserve the tiny pockets where it's spoken now. Then expand those pockets.
If that can't be done then it will be completely dead.

opti0nal

Grayson wrote: »

If the language is going to be preserved, then the best option is to preserve the tiny pockets where it's spoken now. Then expand those pockets.
If that can't be done then it will be completely dead.

The dilemma is that language does not exist in a vacuum, it's an integral part of a functioning society and which primary language is chosen by the members of that society depends on a number of cultural and economic factors such as heritage and trading partners.

LordSutch

Well just in case its not patently obvious, the biggest hurdle the revival of the Irish language has always been the ham fisted approach to the teaching of . . . The bleak & dreary curriculum which is/was in place for several decades (Peig obviously comes to mind) always instilling a rather dark & dreary vision of the language for many.

I remember well the hatred we had for our primary school teacher in particular who was a real Gaelic speaking Nazi type if ever ther was, the meter stick being administered to at least one of us every other day on the back of the legs, and there was always an air of real fear in the room as we heard him approaching/marching in his brown brogue shoes, and I am not exaggerating, this teacher was scary, and if he told you to stand up and read your homework or any passage in Irish, you would do so with a real fear that if you faltered you would get the stick! < Armed with this we entered secondary school with a hatred for the language . . . .

That's my personal story above^ but nowadays I am sure its different in school, the physical punishment has long gone and the curriculum is more modern I guess? also gone is the dreary grey image of the language and the stuffy poems and stories that always seemed to be set on the west coast, in the bleak 1950s, in the middle of winter, in the rain, in black and white.

It took me ages to get over my hatred of the language, and then many years later (it dawned on me that I didn't have a hatred for Irish at all), it was the teacher/teachers who taught Irish with an iron fist, and that effing meter ruler back in the day. The Irish langauage itself is fine, just not sure that it should be mandatory for all kids, of all ages, and in all schools, and I say this (against the backdrop of leaving cert students with only the cupla focal to show) after studying Irish up until seventeen/eighteen/nineteen years of age :cool:

Grayson

LordSutch wrote: »

Well just in case its not patently obvious, the biggest hurdle the revival of the Irish language has always been the ham fisted approach to the teaching of . . . The bleak & dreary curriculum which is/was in place for several decades (Peig obviously comes to mind) always instilling a rather dark & dreary vision of the language for many.

I remember well the hatred we had for our primary school teacher in particular who was a real Gaelic speaking Nazi type if ever ther was, the meter stick being administered to at least one of us every other day on the back of the legs, and there was always an air of real fear in the room as we heard him approaching/marching in his brown brogue shoes, and I am not exaggerating, this teacher was scary, and if he told you to stand up and read your homework or any passage in Irish, you would do so with a real fear that if you faltered you would get the stick! < Armed with this we entered secondary school with a hatred for the language . . . .

That's my personal story above^ but nowadays I am sure its different in school, the physical punishment has long gone and the curriculum is more modern I guess? also gone is the dreary grey image of the language and the stuffy poems and stories that always seemed to be set on the west coast, in the bleak 1950s, in the middle of winter, in the rain, in black and white.

It took me ages to get over my hatred of the language, and then many years later (it dawned on me that I didn't have a hatred for Irish at all), it was the teacher/teachers who taught Irish with an iron fist, and that effing meter ruler back in the day. The Irish langauage itself is fine, just not sure that it should be mandatory for all kids, of all ages, and in all schools, and I say this (against the backdrop of leaving cert students with only the cupla focal to show) after studying Irish up until seventeen/eighteen/nineteen years of age :cool:

I think every sane person, pro irish language (see, I remembered that time) or anti irish language is grateful Peig was removed from the curriculum.

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I see. Well, that kind of proves my point, really...

Debate my points about the inadequacies/strengths of the language revival and the attitudes of those trying to bring it about here, please, and send the cheapshots via PM. Everyone's happy.

Your point was about being condescending with people disagreeing with me on the topic of the Irish language, not with people who are incessantly nagging like you are doing, you have proven absolutely nothing. I suppose the fact that you are demanding I debate the language, yet all you have done for 24 hours is criticise me personally with no mention of the language whatsoever, has skipped your notice. :rolleyes:
You haven't said one word about the language in this little nag of yours, all you are doing is being critical of people, nag nag nag.
Fortunately there is a solution for that, so I will no longer be even reading your sad little moans let alone responding to them. Slán.

opti0nal

LordSutch wrote: »

The bleak & dreary curriculum which is/was in place for several decades (Peig obviously comes to mind) always instilling a rather dark & dreary vision of the language for many.... this teacher was scary, and if he told you to stand up and read your homework or any passage in Irish, you would do so with a real fear that if you faltered you would get the stick! < Armed with this we entered secondary school with a hatred for the....

I've sometimes thought about why Irish has been imposed in such a fashion, often coupled with an unbalanced version of Anglo Irish history. I can still recall the fear of small children in the classrooms as Irish lessons loomed. The smell of urine when a 10 year old was called out on the Tuiseal Gnath Laithreach, then teased about his English surname before being whipped with a specially seasoned brown leather strap on his tiny hands. Scurrying away trying to blow cold air on them to ease the pain.

Perhaps such teachers saw Ireland's English speaking children as representing the English nation they so hated and vented their anger on them?

If the behaviour of Irish enthusiasts is seen as forming part of a cycle of abuse, this might go some way to explain attitudes of both Irish and English speakers.

Cú Giobach

Grayson wrote: »

To get to Mayo from Dublin, the last half of the distance takes more than 2/3rds of the total time. If you want to get anywhere in Donegal, you have to spend ****ing ages. If you live in Achill, the nearest towns are miles away. You have to really travel to get any work that doesn't involve some cottage industry. And tourism is a cottage industry in those areas. There might be big hotels etc... in the major towns, but gaeltachts aren't located in major towns. Their isolation makes them havens for the language but also means that anyone who wants a job outside of the cottage industries there has to move away.

That was my point. If you want to nit pick over details, go ahead, troll away.

Dublin Dublin Dublin, Christ you are obsessed with the place, and that last sentence says it all, someone who disagrees with you about something is a troll. Sad.
Since you seem unable to differentiate between rural and isolated and don't seem to have a concept of what an isolated place really is, there is no point in going any further with this.

Quick question!

Why doesn't TG4 run end to end Irish language lessons during the "silent hours" rather than Euronews and the like that can be carried on any of the (now) eight Saorview channels and carry the learning resources on the TG4.ie website.

Free and unlimited access to learning material will help those who want to learn/improve their language skills, if you don't want to learn, just don't watch or go to the websites etc

Seanchai

opti0nal wrote: »

I can still recall the fear of small children in the classrooms as Irish lessons loomed. The smell of urine when a 10 year old was called out on the Tuiseal Gnath Laithreach, then teased about his English surname before being whipped with a specially seasoned brown leather strap on his tiny hands. Scurrying away trying to blow cold air on them to ease the pain.

Perhaps such teachers saw Ireland's English speaking children as representing the English nation they so hated and vented their anger on them?

Christ almighty, you're a walking stereotype of melodrama, hyperbole, lies, ahistoricism and hate when it comes to Irish. From reading this nonsense one would think you've just survived Auschwitz. Please get counselling for all this hatred.

Seanchai

dolanbaker wrote: »

Quick question!

Why doesn't TG4 run end to end Irish language lessons during the "silent hours" rather than Euronews and the like that can be carried on any of the (now) eight Saorview channels and carry the learning resources on the TG4.ie website.

Free and unlimited access to learning material will help those who want to learn/improve their language skills, if you don't want to learn, just don't watch or go to the websites etc

Good idea. With digital tv they could even show some of the excellent documentaries with English *and* Irish subtitles optional. That way you can watch them in Irish and if you get lost you can turn on English subtitles, rewind and get the meaning, turn off subtitles and carry on.

dan dan

One of the biggest barriers to learning irish is the fact it`s not sexy. Go to learn it and you are firmly planted in the area of asses carts .currachs, and stone wall little intrigues.

Make the language ,part of modern times. Have the scenarios. up to the minute stuff and set the learning process in 21st century ireland . I love all the old stuff but it is killing irish not curing it.

dan dan

dan dan wrote: »

One of the biggest barriers to learning irish is the fact it`s not sexy. Go to learn it and you are firmly planted in the area of asses carts .currachs, and stone wall little intrigues.

Make the language ,part of modern times. Have the scenarios. up to the minute stuff and set the learning process in 21st century ireland . I love all the old stuff but it is killing irish not curing it.

It's not all like that, http://ibcontent.comrz.com/AcuCustom/Sitename/DAM/005/GIL9780717137596_Main.jpg

LordSutch

Seanchai wrote: »

Christ almighty, you're a walking stereotype of melodrama, hyperbole, lies, ahistoricism and hate when it comes to Irish. From reading this nonsense one would think you've just survived Auschwitz. Please get counselling for all this hatred.

Hmm, I wonder did that teacher I spoke of in #1123 have a son?

gobnaitolunacy

dan dan wrote: »

One of the biggest barriers to learning irish is the fact it`s not sexy. Go to learn it and you are firmly planted in the area of asses carts .currachs, and stone wall little intrigues.

Make the language ,part of modern times. Have the scenarios. up to the minute stuff and set the learning process in 21st century ireland . I love all the old stuff but it is killing irish not curing it.

Gneas istigh sa Cathair?


No, Irish is about as sexy as getting a glimpse of Peig's minge.

mathstalk

Deleted User wrote: »

Quick question!

Why doesn't TG4 run end to end Irish language lessons during the "silent hours" rather than Euronews and the like that can be carried on any of the (now) eight Saorview channels and carry the learning resources on the TG4.ie website.

Free and unlimited access to learning material will help those who want to learn/improve their language skills, if you don't want to learn, just don't watch or go to the websites etc

Money.

mathstalk

mathstalk wrote: »

Money.

If they broadcasted older stuff, then the costs would be minimal, or just commission some educational programmes for TG4, studio based shows aren’t that expensive to produce.

Pumpkinseeds

I think that the Irish language is entirely redundant to most Irish people, and that it is as far removed from modern Irish culture as it is possible to be. I feel that its high time to stop trying to flog a dead language, lets just let it be an optional subject in schools for students that want to learn it. Lets be honest, most people couldn't give a rats proverbial about the Irish language. It is an ugly language and a dull one to learn.

In my opinion the Irish language is not something that most Irish people identify with or care about it is irrelevant to the lives of most Irish people. Time to let it die.

mathstalk

Deleted User wrote: »

If they broadcasted older stuff, then the costs would be minimal, or just commission some educational programmes for TG4, studio based shows aren’t that expensive to produce.

I'm pretty sure TG4 aren't the ones "broadcasting" Euro News. The channel simply switches over to another network. If they were, themselves, to broadcast their own shows it would at least cost a small amount of money, which wouldn't be worth it, considering the tiny number of people watching.

Even so, the best way to learn is through example, so it would be far better to broadcast normal TG4 shows (whatever those may be) as opposed to formal educational shows.

opti0nal

Seanchai wrote: »

Christ almighty, you're a walking stereotype of melodrama, hyperbole, lies, ahistoricism and hate when it comes to Irish.

I can see you're angry when wrongdoing by the Irish language movement is mentioned and your first reaction is to try and silence critics through abuse and ridicule.

Can you give examples of hatred or lies in my posts?

Let's address these issues so that you can make progress.

Grayson

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Dublin Dublin Dublin, Christ you are obsessed with the place, and that last sentence says it all, someone who disagrees with you about something is a troll. Sad.
Since you seem unable to differentiate between rural and isolated and don't seem to have a concept of what an isolated place really is, there is no point in going any further with this.

You're the one obsessed with Dublin. My point is that the transport infrastructure in the west is appalling. But you're just picking on the fact that I mentioned Dublin. You can't even be bothered looking at what i was actually saying and addressing the post. Instead you pick a little point and obsess about that. You sir, are trolling.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Your point was about being condescending with people disagreeing with me on the topic of the Irish language, not with people who are incessantly nagging like you are doing, you have proven absolutely nothing. I suppose the fact that you are demanding I debate the language, yet all you have done for 24 hours is criticise me personally with no mention of the language whatsoever, has skipped your notice. :rolleyes:
You haven't said one word about the language in this little nag of yours, all you are doing is being critical of people, nag nag nag.
Fortunately there is a solution for that, so I will no longer be even reading your sad little moans let alone responding to them. Slán.

Sweet, Jesus - and you've contributed what exacrtly....??!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Well, put it this way: did you respond to the points he raised? No, you did not.

This is the problem: Someone raises a legitimate point about resoting the language and the best responce one of the more allegedly knowledgeable people on the thread ignores it, deems it ****e and drones out "you tell em boyo".

This, and the converation with An Coilean I had proves the biggest problems with restoring the Irish langauge: those who want to see it reveived, don't want to listen to possibile solutions from outside their own little clique and perceive anything such as an attack. Unable to respond to such, and unable to accept such ideas as possibly havign merit, the onlyroute left is condescention.

Which, let's face it, doesn't really help or contribute to a revival, does it?

I've also suggested to another poster that those wishing to revive Irish are too focused on school and Gaeltacht associations, where you will only reach those who are already intested, but not in the last 24 hours.

Now, like I said. Ad hominem attacks via PM, a responce to the idea that elitism within Irish-speaking circles and an over emphasis on education helps/hinders a revival in your next post.

Interest in History

Seanchai wrote: »

Christ almighty, you're a walking stereotype of melodrama, hyperbole, lies, ahistoricism and hate when it comes to Irish. ....

This was your response to a description of a bad situation in the worst days of the Revival as it affected the schools. But you were wrong to dismiss the description given by somebody who experienced it. Those times did have some really bad aspects in our schools. Really bad.

I don't want to provide some matching facts because those times are long gone and recalling the historical situation is only of use to us in understanding the rejection of the Revival and the Revivalists in a past era. The discussion to-day is completely different.

One central difference now to the situation in the class then, which has nothing to do with Irish itself, is that corporal punishment was outlawed in 1983. If you haven't been beaten by a deranged Christian Brother in an 'A' school, using fists, stick or strap, then you would not be aware that your ironic reference to Auschwitz would not be seen by all readers as ironic.