How to revive the Irish language.

LordSutch

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

What is your definition of a "fanatic" in relation to the Irish language?

SEANCHAI.

Béal Feirste

Talking of which, he's gone very quiet in the last few days :cool:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

I think my views are similar to many people here, but they just jump down my throat once they see that my name is Irish and I have a positive view on the language.

I know several parents who have just been turned away from Gaelscoils because there is such a long waiting list. The demand is huge, but the resources aren't. Now, if those resources wasted on 14 years of mandatory Irish could be channelled into new Gaelcsoils, we would be in a much better situation.

That's pretty much my view on it, and I don't think it's unreasonable.

I think many people here need to get a punching bag or take a jog because clearly the language issue is far to emotive to handle and they end up saying silly things on the internet.

1 - The problenms with the username is the caps as much as anything. Also, never really a good idea to use your real name in an internet forum either.
2 - The demand is there, good, but the problem is that the chances to speak irish outside of a school setting are limitied to non-existant. This is the problem. I highlighted it before - suggesting you get coaches, extra-curricular teacehrs and extended family memebrs to speak a few sentences to every now and again to the kdis in their care. Nothing difficult, nothing you need to be fluent for, just to show that this thing has an existance outside of school. It got shot down by certain people with irish usernames.
3 - 14 years is a waste of time. If, after the age of abotu 13 or 15 a student has no interest in the langauge, it's really best to listen to them.

LordSutch wrote: »

SEANCHAI.

Béal Feirste

Talking of which, he's gone very quiet in the last few days :cool:

Probably banned. Or suling with his tail between his legs and too scared to come back.

An Coilean

poeticseraphim wrote: »

It really is not possible for people to learn a language with great fluency with the numebrs of speakers there are. There was a study done by a linguist about 'Dublin Irish' that found the level of Irish spoken by people even on RTE in DUblin and from the Gaelscoils...is terribly poor and not a real dialect....they hypothesised that a real revival is actually probably technically impossible.

Can we get a link to that study?
I have met plenty of people who have learned Irish as a second language to a high degree of fluency.

A freind of mine is a native speaker of the language bourn and raised in Dublin, His Irish is indeed quite different from that of Gaeltacht Irish, but it is not terribly poor, as for Dublin Irish being a dialect, I will deal with that below.

Here is a fascinating lecture on the Irish langauge demise and revival attempts and the most interesting topic 'Urban Irish'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E-K9-GCJOk&feature=relmfu

His Urban Irish language linguistic analysis is amazing and fascinating. He makes rhe point that if the language is not spoken by a native to a child the child will not be able to learn it...but will have to learn it in a class as a second language...Urban Irish is an unstable language...and the different frequency of error level makes communication difficult and the brain of new speakers will not be able to pick it up....

He says that the fact that English speakers learning it are changing the pronounciation and grammar and have been doing this for years...and he says that people who learn Irish even in the gaelscoils are not speaking actual Irish but are speaking a 'Pidgeon' Irish language...and this is impossible to pass on as communicating in a grammatically flawed language is difficult and the brain does not work that way...It is not 'REAL IRISH ' that people who speak it as a second language are speaking..and you cannot learn Irish unless you learn in the gealtacht.

This is far and away from what Brian is saying in his lecture. Firstly the claim that those who speak Irish outside the Gaeltacht are not speaking 'Real' Irish is a claim made by purests. The argument put forward by Brian is that currently Irish spoken in Dublin is quite unstable, but is developing into a new Urban dialect that will emerge over the next generation.

Claiming that Brian said you cannot learn Irish unless you learn it in the Gaeltacht is a bit of a failure of knowing who you are talking about, Brian Ó Broin is one of heads of Comhluadar, the organisation that supports Family's raising their children through Irish outside the gaeltacht. Far from saying its impossible to raise kids with Irish outside the Gaeltacht, he works hard to help those that do, you can see it clearly when he dismisses 'Purests' out side the Gaeltacht who fail to pass the language on for fear of making mistakes. He says ''I have only the highst respect for those who say screw the purests, I'm going to rais my kids in Irish anyway''.

Perhaps you missed the end of the vidio you posted, its quite obvious that instead of denegrating Urban Irish as you are, he is actually championing it to an extent.

The revival is actually part of what is murdering the real language.

On the other hand ...yes language changes..but it has to change in a standardised way..which it can only do with a large number of students

There is a real lack of semantic sophistication amongs Anlgo-phone Irish speakers

Spoken like a true Purest. Brian actually said the opposit, its the Purest that have harmed the language.
As for semantic sophistication, he said that among second generation Urban Speakers, their Semantic Sophistication improves greatly, but their Phnology remains similar to their Non Native speaking parents

And the last generation of native isolated speakers is dying the Gaeltacht is shrinking...these non standard pidgeons will rise and make communication harder with the lack of grammatical structure
The main problem is people are trying to revive it as a second language ...which is near impossible really whilst still retaining lingusitic purity and standards..and of course we must keep English as our mother tongue

Again, he mentioned nothing about the last generation of Native speakers in the gaeltacht shrinking or dying, he infact said that the number of Native speakers is holding steady and has been for the last 20 years.

LordSutch

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Probably banned. Or suling with his tail between his legs and too scared to come back.

Maybe he is back? either way surely "TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN" can be abbreviated to something more managable?
I deliberately shortened my username from Screaming Lord Sutch (deceased leader of the Monster raving looney party) to just 'LordSutch'.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

LordSutch wrote: »

Maybe he is back? either way surely "TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN" can be abbreviated to something more managable?
I deliberately shortened my username from Screaming Lord Sutch (deceased leader of the Monster raving looney party) to just 'LordSutch'.

I think you have to subscribe to change your name. And they only accept paypal.

Ikky Poo2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I think you have to subscribe to change your name. And they only accept paypal.

With only 20 posts, s/he could just start a new account!
It'll be easier than changing their name.

poeticseraphim

An Coilean wrote: »

Can we get a link to that study?
I have met plenty of people who have learned Irish as a second language to a high degree of fluency.

A freind of mine is a native speaker of the language bourn and raised in Dublin, His Irish is indeed quite different from that of Gaeltacht Irish, but it is not terribly poor, as for Dublin Irish being a dialect, I will deal with that below.




This is far and away from what Brian is saying in his lecture. Firstly the claim that those who speak Irish outside the Gaeltacht are not speaking 'Real' Irish is a claim made by purests. The argument put forward by Brian is that currently Irish spoken in Dublin is quite unstable, but is developing into a new Urban dialect that will emerge over the next generation.

Claiming that Brian said you cannot learn Irish unless you learn it in the Gaeltacht is a bit of a failure of knowing who you are talking about, Brian Ó Broin is one of heads of Comhluadar, the organisation that supports Family's raising their children through Irish outside the gaeltacht. Far from saying its impossible to raise kids with Irish outside the Gaeltacht, he works hard to help those that do, you can see it clearly when he dismisses 'Purests' out side the Gaeltacht who fail to pass the language on for fear of making mistakes. He says ''I have only the highst respect for those who say screw the purests, I'm going to rais my kids in Irish anyway''.

Perhaps you missed the end of the vidio you posted, its quite obvious that instead of denegrating Urban Irish as you are, he is actually championing it to an extent.







Spoken like a true Purest. Brian actually said the opposit, its the Purest that have harmed the language.
As for semantic sophistication, he said that among second generation Urban Speakers, their Semantic Sophistication improves greatly, but their Phnology remains similar to their Non Native speaking parents




Again, he mentioned nothing about the last generation of Native speakers in the gaeltacht shrinking or dying, he infact said that the number of Native speakers is holding steady and has been for the last 20 years.

You don't address any of the issues of funding it when the country is in dire straits and families with children are sliding into poverty and jobs are out there that require German not Irish. Resources are so precious right now. It is actually anti-patriotic to want such subsidies and funding for it in schools when there are much more basic needs not being met. If people cared about their fellow people they would not create another economic drain.

Maybe in a few years we can afford such a debate but not now. I think that is why people feel Gaelgoirs care for no one but themselves....have you seen the pilimary 2013 budget...it's brutal!

All subsidies need to be redirected at the moment and the edutaion budget needs to be totally pragmatic..i am sorry and when we can afford it...then
we can have the discussion.

Any rivival cannot use public money ....in the private sector i fully support it go for it! Infact i would whole heartedly support a private sector led revival. A private sector revival might work..the state usually is not as effective as private enterprise.

Private funding only until the country is on it's feet again.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

I wonder how many of you fume in anger every time you accidently turn on TG4. Do any of you watch it? It has some great shows.

syklops

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

I wonder how many of you fume in anger every time you accidently turn on TG4. :P

Not that many if the weather is on :cool:

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

syklops wrote: »

Not that many if the weather is on :cool:

Admittedly one of the main reasons I love TG4

antodeco

^^^^ Longest username ever?

LordSutch

antodeco wrote: »

^^^^ Longest username ever?

Probably? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80692286&postcount=94

Wibbs

An Coilean wrote: »

Can we get a link to that study?
I have met plenty of people who have learned Irish as a second language to a high degree of fluency.

I equally know people who've learned Spanish, French and English to a high degree of fluency, but still don't sound like "natives". Therefore your "plenty of people" also don't sound like natives. In their own country.

A freind of mine is a native speaker of the language bourn and raised in Dublin, His Irish is indeed quite different from that of Gaeltacht Irish, but it is not terribly poor, as for Dublin Irish being a dialect, I will deal with that below.

If his Irish is different from a native Irish speaker at what point does it become some artificial bastardised pidgin? IMHO either speak the actual language some are eager to preserve or don't. Otherwise one may as well learn Esperanto, or klingon.

This is far and away from what Brian is saying in his lecture. Firstly the claim that those who speak Irish outside the Gaeltacht are not speaking 'Real' Irish is a claim made by purests. The argument put forward by Brian is that currently Irish spoken in Dublin is quite unstable, but is developing into a new Urban dialect that will emerge over the next generation.

It might, nay likely will, but it's Irish once removed. An invention to a large degree. Some have described it as "Oirish". I gather some of the Ulster "Irish" is of a similar bent? If the last actual native Irish speaker dies out(which I doubt. Thankfully) we'll have an artificial cultural construct in it's place, so ironically consider me a purest on this score.

Spoken like a true Purest. Brian actually said the opposit, its the Purest that have harmed the language.

How by actually speaking the language correctly?

Again, he mentioned nothing about the last generation of Native speakers in the gaeltacht shrinking or dying, he infact said that the number of Native speakers is holding steady and has been for the last 20 years.

Which I truly hope remains the case in the face of Oirish.

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

I wonder how many of you fume in anger every time you accidently turn on TG4. Do any of you watch it? It has some great shows.

I watch it regularly enough. Has some good, mostly, but not always bought in shows. Floirsceal in particular. Though also some great home brewed nature and culture shows. The thin chap whose name sadly escapes who hikes quietly through spectacular little known corners of this land informing as he goes another highlight. Some of the shows are a tad cringeworthy mind you. The "country and western" one in particular. The Grand Ole Opry on mogadon with LSD chasers. The dating type shows have their unintended comedic moments to be sure. The talking heads type shows showcasing elderly chaps and chapesses discussing how once they drove to Sligo in the 50's to purchase sellotape is another with comedic moments. "You didn't" "Aye I did", "Really?" "Aye. stopped once for a cup of tae, which was the done thing in them days". "Wow" "And did you know Seamus O Bhrian?" "Oh aye. It was the done thing in them days to know him. T'was. Knew his wife too. Knitted". It's like watching Grandpa Simpson as Gaelige and the greatest cure for insomnia ever committed to cathode ray tubes or charged coupled devices.

That said if they ever switch off the subtitles watch their ratings plummet.

TG4 exposed in a small way how fluent people are or not. One of the producers of Ros na Run bemoaned the fact that finding male actors with good conversational Irish was becoming difficult. Apparently actresses were not nearly so hard to find.

Cú Giobach

Iwasfrozen from (here).
And what does that ruling cover? Surely we don't have to duplicate every service offered to the public? I would hope not anyway but common sense seemed to go out the window with the easter rising...

Nope every service does not have to be duplicated because there is a provision for common sense.

And of course you think common sense went out the window at the Easter Rising, it is inconceivable to you that a mere bunch of taigs would have the ability to govern themselves without the guiding hand of your beloved UK.

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Nope every service does not have to be duplicated because there is a provision for common sense.

But only the Irish Language Commissioner gets to decide what that means.

Cú Giobach

opti0nal wrote: »

But only the Irish Language Commissioner gets to decide what that means.

Don't be having nightmares now about An Coimisinéir Teanga coming to get ya. BOO!!!

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Don't be having nightmares now about An Coimisinéir Teanga coming to get ya. BOO!!!

It's the fellowship of the Main Aim that we should be wary of.

Iwasfrozen

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Nope every service does not have to be duplicated because there is a provision for common sense.

And of course you think common sense went out the window at the Easter Rising, it is inconceivable to you that a mere bunch of taigs would have the ability to govern themselves without the guiding hand of your beloved UK.

So you agree that the provisions can be changed depending on what we consider to be common sense? that's good i was begining to think this debate was pointless...

And nope it's not the idea of ruling ourselves that was stupid, it was the decisions we made when we were granted it. If the irish government had've been a little less ideological and a little more pragmatic we wouldn't be having this bull **** conversation in the first place because our definition of "irishness" wouldn't be so narrow. Ironically I think staying in the UK would have benifited the irish language. Funny how these things turn out.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ironically I think staying in the UK would have benifited the irish language. Funny how these things turn out.

And see how well that's worked out for Scots Gaelic.

Iwasfrozen

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

And see how well that's worked out for Scots Gaelic.

No but i do see how well it's worked out for welsh. Scots gaelic on the other hand had the misfortune of being seen as too "irish" by the unionist community in the north. This is mainly imo due to the polarisation of politics following irish independence movements.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No but i do see how well it's worked out for welsh. Scots gaelic on the other hand had the misfortune of being seen as too "irish" by the unionist community in the north. This is mainly imo due to the polarisation of politics following irish independence movements.

Oh dear. Read up on history, sonny boy.

You can't compare the situation in Wales with Ireland. Welsh did not suffer half as as bad as Irish did under the Crown.

Iwasfrozen

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

Oh dear. Read up on history, sonny boy.

You can't compare the situation in Wales with Ireland. Welsh did not suffer half as as bad as Irish did under the Crown.

Sonny boy? you make the assumption that I'm younger then you. But since your profile says you're 60 I guess that's a reasonable assumption.

And Ireland's sufferage under the crown encouraged us to speak english? That's interesting since the area that suffered the most under the Brits (Northern Ireland) also seems to have the most fanatical support for the language. Weird isn't it? But then the North remains strongly a part of the UK which would lend support to my argument. Looks like you could do with reading up on your history, old man.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sonny boy? you make the assumption that I'm younger then you. But since your profile says you're 60 I guess that's a reasonable assumption.

And Ireland's sufferage under the crown encouraged us to speak english? That's interesting since the area that suffered the most under the Brits (Northern Ireland) also seems to have the most fanatical support for the language. Weird isn't it? But then the North remains strongly a part of the UK which would lend support to my argument. Looks like you could do with reading up on your history, old man.

Had a little snoop at my profile, did ya? Fell for the fake age, did ya? You're far more dedicated to this than me!

Wibbs

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scots gaelic on the other hand had the misfortune of being seen as too "irish" by the unionist community in the north.

Most Ulster Unionists would ally themselves with the lowland Scots tradition which didn't speak Scots Gaelic to nearly the same degree as the highland Scots. So it's not great surprise they wouldn't have taken to it. Though historically going further back among their number Ulster planters did speak Irish for practical reasons if nothing else and a couple of Ulster Presbyterians were scholars of the language. Things as always are never so clear cut.

As for Welsh TTOC makes a valid point, Wales didn't suffer nearly so badly under London rule, at least not unless you go waaaaay back. Welsh didn't suffer nearly as much from emigration of it's speakers either. Plus the Welsh themselves don't have the chip on the shoulder going both ways about the language so it's revival found more fertile ground. IIRC too Welsh didn't get to quite the low levels of fluency found here?

Though IWF also makes a point that Welsh is doing pretty well under the English crown so who knows? Maybe the Scots and the Irish are similar in that they've become "meh" about the language. Maybe it was the highland clearances that was the real killer? The move to urban areas compounding this? They didn't have the famine to nearly the degree of here, but Irish was already in decline in Ireland by the time of the famine, that event just twisted the knife.

oldmangrub

I think people should actually campaign for Irish to become non-compulsory if that's what they're passionate about. I suspect from posts that some people are here to wind up or attack people that they obviously feel a lot of hatred or resentment for. I think unjustified. If you want to do something about it, you can express your will. The only group I know campaigning against compulsory Irish are Fine Gael Óg. There seems to be a lot of support for it here.

I think provisions in the language act are fair. It is not expensive (despite media reports) to provide documents in more than one language and people who have Irish as their first language pay enough tax to cover it. I wouldn't share the right-wing, conservative sensibilities of those who argue against that principle. I'd be quite happy with those documents being published in Polish and Chinese too. It is important to have official documents in Irish, it's not people being petty, it does feel like a slap in the face when they're all in English. To me anyway. But I am backward and ignorant etc.

Irish is my second language and English isn't my first. It's not a hobby anymore than history or geography is and I appreciate people who make an effort to learn it. As to a poster's comment about it being "pigeon" Irish, Irish people speaking Irish is not comparable to an Irish person speaking a foreign language. The pronunciation doesn't suffer, Irish has formed the way we speak English. Whether we like it or not. This isn't the case with Dubliners but there are so many speakers in Dublin and Gaeltachters are getting exposed to them on TG4 that it's becoming a dialect in itself. This is not impacting on how the rest of the country speaks Irish in any way. Whoever called it "Oirish" is just being patronising and snobbish. I'm surprised a poster can't remember who that was. Anyone in this country has just as much right to speak Irish and add to it than I do. It's part of their identity too and picking up a phrase or two from English is normal. It's a living language, it adapts to and for the culture and community it lives in as it should. It is not something dead that we have to preserve in some museum of a Gaeltacht. We're not all crusty old men! (Just me)

I reported a post that hoped for a dying out gracefully for all speakers and supporters of Irish and got ignored. I'm sure if the same post referenced women, the Polish, taxi-drivers, gingers, pudgy people, whatever the poster would have been banned. This thread has taught me that there is a lot of ill-feeling towards the language that I was actually blissfully unaware of until now. I do think Irish should be non-compulsory if that's what the majority of Irish people want. Some people will teach their kids complete hatred towards my "culture" (yes, that's what I think of it, imaginary or not), or even worse, complete ignorance of it and I obviously hate the idea of parents doing that but likewise I'm not fond of people having their kids grow up on the Kardashians. Nothing I can do about it.

Thank you to those of you who support Irish and have even gone the whole hog and learnt to speak it. I have a lot of respect for you and I hope you think as little of the negative comments on this thread as I do. For what it's worth, I always suspect a lot of "anti-Irish" tendancies come from those naturally inclined towards bigotry that would be crazy raving racists only that it's not really the cool thing to be these days. Nobody should take them seriously. (*Chomh maith le sin, rinne mé botún gramadaí cúpla leathanach ó shin d'aontoisc...ionas nach gceapfaí gur Gaeilgeoir lofa mé nó an Coimisinéir fiú! )

Anyway, I think (I might be wrong) that there is an agenda on this here (galvinising a campaign maybe) and it's not really condusive to a proper conversation. All my suggestions got ignored anyway, genius though they clearly are.

I wish you all the best, whatever your values are. I am returning to my hut and the voices in my head. Apparently the girls on the crossroads are doing a peep-show later so have to get my seat. I hope you all escape this thread soon too!

And for the "fun"

Enjoy!

Iwasfrozen

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

Had a little snoop at my profile, did ya? Fell for the fake age, did ya? You're far more dedicated to this than me!

I couldn't help but look at your profile after I saw that heinous nickname you've given yourself.

oldmangrub

^ It's his name. You must be very upset with all the Nigerians and Arab names around these days.
Montrosities... heinous... blah, blah, blah.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I couldn't help but look at your profile after I saw that heinous nickname you've given yourself.

You know that's my full name? You don't want to be discriminating based on someone's language now, do ya? Could get yourself into trouble, sonny boy

Iwasfrozen

oldmangrub wrote: »

^ It's his name. You must be very upset with all the Nigerians and Arab names around these days.
Montrosities... heinous... blah, blah, blah.

I would be if some Nigerian fella signed up with a 34 letter name in all capitals that messes with the format on my phone.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote:

You know that's my full name? You don't want to be discriminating based on someone's language now, do ya? Could get yourself into trouble, sonny boy

Yes I do and you could have called yourself TTOC. Writing that ridiculously long name in all capitals was stupid no matter what language it's in. And this should be interesting, how exactly am i going to get into trouble? Anyway that's enough from me for this thread for now. It's obvious some people will never change their opinions.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I would be if some Nigerian fella signed up with a 34 letter name in all capitals that messes with the format on my phone.

Capitals? You need to get your eyes checked, pal.