How to revive the Irish language.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You are not making any sense.
What has people leaving school (or any other language classes for that matter) having not learned the language got to do with the positive aspects of bilingualism?

Actually, when Williams wrote on the subject he did not deal with bilingualism. He was addressing the conditions necessary to gain access to another culture through the study of that culture's language. I took up 'bilingualism' from your text, wrongly. I guess i couldn't resist responding to your quip.

So, if you want to access the culture of the families who send their children to Scoil Iosagáin you may do so by sitting in class with them and acquiring the same level of Irish that they have. If they are dealing through Irish with matters of philosophy, art, music, science and language on a high level and if your grasp of Irish is up to it, then your cultural experience with them can be on a high level. Ditto for vsiting their families in their homes.

As to your above point on the benefits of bilingualism. The positive aspects of bilingualism cannot be available to students who have not mastered the second language. And most of our students leave school without that necessary level of mastery. Hence the general value of bilingualism simply does not apply to them.

An Coilean wrote: »

To those who contend that replacing Irish with another language in the Education system will be economically beneficial, this point is very relevant. (Inserted: That to acquire the benefits of bilingualism you have to be bilingual, and very few of our students are this an any of the languages that they have been exposed to.) We will put Irish people out of a job, and hire in language teachers from another country, and the result will be students who still can not compeate with native speakers for the jobs that require that language. The way Irish is taught in the education system dose not produce fluent Irish speakers, replacing Irish with another language will not produce people fluent in that language.

As far as your point on Bilingualism goes, it must be bourn in mind that while the full cognative benefits of Bilingualism are experienced when a child is raised with two languages, a child who later learns a second language also benefits, and that benefit is proportional to the proficiency they achieve in that second language, ie learn a little of a second language, benefit a little, learn a lot benefit more.

(Excuse me for telescoping your paragraphs)

As to the points made in your first paragraph. AMEN TO ALL THAT!

As to your second paragraph: I have no idea from personal experience if you are right and if generalisations about an education system can be derived from what you say. I have only experienced one community, in Gibralter, which seemed to me to have many full bilinguals - in that case between Spanish and English. I don't know if they were more mentally developed as a result.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I already knew that, and was ready to ask you for the full quote if you tried to go any further on it. Point #1 made it very obvious.

Which is why we are discussing having Ireland as a bilingual country by reviving Irish.

If you want to argue against the findings and opinions of scholars & experts on that subject, shouldn't you find some evidence to back yourself up?

The Williams article is in Studies in Studies, Summer 1989. He has another relevant article which touches on compulsion in education titled "The Limits of Paternalism in Educational Relations" which is in the magazine Irish Educational Studies Vol 18, Spring 1999.

What can I say to your plan of reviving Irish and then having the Irish people to employ it on a bilingual basis with English? Do you expect to live to see the plan fulfilled?

I'm not arguing against the merits claimed by you for bilingualism. I've said repeatedly that I'm not qualified to do so. But I have said that since there are so few of them in Ireland I don't think that it is a live issue here. (Until such time as you plan works out, of course.)

An Coilean wrote: »

This has been gone over, the counter argument to suggesting that a language other than Irish should be taught is that the infastructure to teach such a language is not there, neither the political will is there nor the public demand, and teaching a plurality of other languages, while desirable, has much less potential to produce a bilingual population than Irish.

I don't think there is much evidence to back any of that up: most people tend to agree that teaching language skills to young kids is a good thing by definition, and I highly doubt that there are less people qualified to teach continental languages than Irish. It's not like graduate teachers haven't already learned multiple foreign languages by the time they finish college.

Also, regarding jobs going to native speakers: in many cases that's true, but in a lot of cases it is actually not. It often comes down to a toss up between a person's technical skills vs their language skills. They may still be hired if they are stronger on tech than language skills (the reverse often happens over here where an Irish-based company many hire foreigners who have a poorer grasp of English than the native English speakers, but have better tech skills). Then there is the issue of Ireland being a small open economy, where it is a big advantage to be able to speak the native languages of countries we are doing business with. Sure, many people on the continent speak English, but nothing beats being able to do business in the lingua franca of a country.

The impression that I get from reading people's posts here is that they wish all these things were true for fear that the education system's focus may be taken away from learning Irish. I think teaching another language alongside Irish would compliment the subject and actually make it easier to learn.

eddyc wrote: »

Irish culture is diverse, yet why is nobody free to not study Irish in school, surely if our culture is so varied there is room for non Irish speakers as well? Or those who would prefer their kids to spend their time learning a different language, so why is it the only compulsory subject at leaving cert and why do certain jobs, colleges etc. require it for study or employment?
It seems Irish supporters are given plenty of support but those who are not are artificially hindered in many respects.

No. Everyone must speak irish, play gaa and dance with comely maidens at the crossroads. If you don't you're not properly irish.

Deleted User wrote: »

What's a comely maiden?

Good looking virgin girl.

Pidge96 wrote: »

If Irish was the main language taught in Primary, and other subjects taught through the medium of it (bar english), at least then people would be immersed and they'd be able to speak it grand :cool:

If i ever have kids i want them taught maths through english, the language of science thank you very much. I do not want their education used as a tool for the governments political aspirations.

dubhthach wrote:

Think the Rubberbandits got you covered when it comes to dancing with comely maidens:

haha finally. A true irish band. And not a crossroads in sight.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

haha finally. A true irish band. And not a crossroads in sight.

oldmangrub wrote: »

(as between Irish and English)

Anyone know if the scientific vocabulary is that different?

The language spoken by scientists in their work in our country is different. The language by scientists in their work anywhere in the world is different.

condra wrote: »

The Irish language should die off gracefully, just like the biased, mostly bigoted, conservative, religious, nationalist, shower of backwards culchie goons that support it.

How ironic, the above sounds more apt for your own point of view. As for Google they are a private company they don't have to have maps in Irish, there's nothing forcing them to, they did it of their own choice funnily enough. Just same way as they provided Google Translate as well as Google search in Irish. Heck even facebook offer their interface in Irish.

Funnily I find the Irish warning on cigarette boxes considerably more apt:

Toradh caithimh tobac - bás == The fruit of smoking is death!

Beats: "Smoking kills" which is what the english warning says.