How to revive the Irish language.

An Coilean wrote: »

Summer Courses in the Gaeltacht cater to 20,000 students + every year. If they were all in the choir, there would not be a problem. Most students who go on one are not involved in the Irish Language outside the Class Room, you often here kids coming off those courses saying that they would love to carry on using Irish in a fun way at home or in school, but invariably that dose not happen because the oppertunity is not there.
Thats what the CnaG campaign is aimed at, showing those kids how they can use their Irish when they get back home and back to school. They got to speak to around 12,000 kids last summer.

... but they're going to the Gaeltacht, that's my point! They're already interested!

The other porblem, as you outline yourself is that there is no outlet once tey get home. Read on...

Outside of schools there are youth clubs that operate through Irish, Ogras, Og-Ogras and Cumann na bhFiann, though I do take your point, the problem is that to organise a club directed at a specific thing, Ballet for example, you need a concentration of young people interested in doing that in Irish. In Dublin you can get that concentration, there was recently a GAA Club set up that operates through Irish.

No you don't. I never said do the enitre class in Irish - that wouldn't work. Just have the teacher or coach introduce Irish gradually, so that kids see it as something that is not just in school, not just in the gaelteach and not just some after-school club. Those that are looking for the outlet, will have it. Those that don't, may see Irish as not being a school subject.

Irish societies in schools, and universities are extra curricular, they are run by the students themselves, not the teachers. They do a wide range of activities, its up to the members themselves what they want to try.
Personally I have more experiance at third level with them than at second level. Believe me though a good Cumann Gaelach has nothing to do with learning Irish in a Class room.

But they are STILL associated with school to the disinterested student. Take it from me - I was one.

The problem with getting a boxing coach or Art teacher to use a little bit of Irish with the kids they are teaching is that 1) they probably don't have any Irish themselves, 2) they probably don't care and 3) no one has told them to, they are there to teach boxing, not Irish.
This is not to say it dose'nt happen now and again, its just very hard to actually implement.

"Probably"?? Sorry, but if you attitude is the people you are targeting don't care, you have no hope in hell of selling it. No wonder the langauge is mkaing no progress if this is the attitude.

They'll have some expereince. Some focal. They may be disinterested, but if the see role models speaking it, they might see it in a different light.

If you only target poeple who are already interested, you'll never get results.

Overall getting a Cumann Gaelach set up in a secondary school still gets the Language out of the class room, once the students themselves are in charge of it, then they can do what they want to, they have ownership of it and get to use it in a fun way.
For those promoting Irish this is a more practicle and achievable goal, in my opinion.

Again, preaching to the choir. You're targeting the kids who are already intrested.

You've already excluded the bulk of your target audience by predicting that they probably don't care. Some won't, but some will.

oldmangrub wrote: »

As I said, it depends what you consider important. Put simply, culture and heritage are the customs and histories of any people. That's why I'd put culture and heritage under the bracket of knowledge of and engagement with the world around you. I don't think there is an automatic idea that it is 'vital' for everyone, 'valid' would be a more appropriate term. There is a widely held assumption that culture is valid.

Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn;t even go as far as valid, but that's just me.

The Irish language is a language, it doesn't have the power to hold you back. Learning Irish enhances your knowledge of Irish and can't impact negatively on your intellectual development. I think you might be thinking in the education box, which is fine, but combining that with philosophical questions about defining culture confuses the argument. How and ever, I don't think Irish is vital for everyone. And I don't think people who have no interest in it or see it as something holding them back should be taught it beyond the Junior Cert. It's bad for them, bad for their class-mates and bad for the language.

It literally did - I got held back in second class, purely because my Irish was weak. Everything else was fine.

Also, when I wanted to take French at the start of secodary school, it was suggested I didn;t because, again, I was having trouble with Irish. Admittedly, just suggested and I probably should have been a bit more forceful with them, but I don't think they would have accpeted me droppign Irish and starting a new language.

As for the extra-curricular activities, there appears to be a lot of them, and they're on the increase. There is a fine line Irish organisations have to walk on; opening any sort of club exclusively for Irish can be seen as elitist. Cú Giobach made a good point about what happens in social gatherings when Irish is not the dominant language. He quoted this;



It can be awkward and embarrassing to speak a language to someone with a notably higher or poorer standard than yourself. And a lot of supporters of the language are embarrassed by their own level of attainment sadly.

I'm not nessecarily talking, as I said to An Coilean, about entire activities for the sole purpose of Irish. Just a place or activity that already exists, where the occasionaly as gaelige conversatino takes place so it's not assocaited with the classroom.

Also, the emphasis would be in the higher-standard guys to wlecome to newbies in. Been in this position myself as the higher standard (not in a langauge setting, obviously) and you have to tackle the intimidation factor fro the onset.

oldmangrub wrote: »

In my opinion, the reason why those nationalities are superior at language learning is because they were exposed to a second language from the age of 3/4. If the demand for Gaelscoils was met, and if primary schools were to become bilingual in general, it would facilitate language acquisition and literacy at second level and in general. German, French, Spanish bilingual primary schools would do just as good a job and there could well be demand and therefore funding for them in the future. The education system can't be democratic because it would be too difficult to fund. I don't believe people who speak Irish are more Irish and you're putting your own words down hypothetical Irish-speakers' throats. The Irish language is not a cause of our unemployment rate.

Do you have any links that support the notion that our international companies are hiring Europeans en masse? Because it hasn't been in the news, which it would be if it were a problem. If they want Irish people with a European language (other than English or Irish) they should look at the Teach na nGealt forum. There seems to be a lot of multi-linguists there. In spite of Irish being considered a valid part of the school curriculum I'm sure.

The lack of foreign language and tech skills among Irish graduates is been well reported in the media during recent years.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2011/1108/1224307200050.html

At company I work for, Irish staff are about 50% of the work force (the numbers of Irish staff at some companies is as low as 20%). We have to search as far as India to recruit staff for some of the more high end positions.

I'm all for having a multi-lingual education system. But the focus cannot be solely on Irish, especially at the national school level. Otherwise it is going to cost us economically.

oldmangrub wrote: »

That's what I meant about combining culture and education in the same argument. Irish didn't hold you back. The education system did. In an ideal scenario, the DoE would take language acquisition in general more seriously and Irish teaching would be a help, not a hindrance. The teachers considered you poor at languages, and with the measly hours given to them, you probably were! Now you're living in Berlin and presumably speaking German. It's an indication of a poor education system, not an indictment of Irish or culture in itself.

I think your ideas on promoting Irish are very constructive and also generous considering your stance on culture.

Different way of sayign the same thing. Education system at the time/over-emphasis on Irish.

My German's not great, but that's down to laziness, to be honest. It gets meby, though. I've always struggled with languages, but my biggest problem is simply not practicing enough.

That's for the input. As both a disinterested student (who abhorred the language for many years after leaving school) and someone who has worked a lot with kids, I can tell you I'm speaking from experience.

An Coilean wrote: »

Well lets ignore the many who are there due to pushy parents - looming orals etc. The vast majority of kids who go on a summer camp in the gaeltacht, while interested in the language to an extent, are not involved with it beyond learning it in school.
Seems to me this is the perfect group to target.

It's not. I'm not saying you shoudn't bother, but the people you want to reach are the people who are not bothered. You also run the risk of making the language eliteist.

Any ideas on how to implement this on a wide scale?

It's not rocket science - just encourage anyone who works with kids to do it. It's somthing, I'm sure, CnaG could implement a strategy for.

Its just stating fact, most boxing coaches etc will have very little or no Irish, it is not enough to say that they will have some cupla focal, no one in my experiance with only a cupla focal will take on using it in a class room situation with kids. Lack of confidence and fear of teaching bad Irish simply preclude people taking something like that on.
I would not want to put myself in that kind of situation and I would not expect someone else to do it either.

Sounds very pessimistic to me. It's like you're trying to shoot this down before even considering, If you get one coach encourage six kids, surely it'd be worth it?

On the other hand, if you don't you don't. Your loss.

The whole point in setting up an Irish society in a school is that it is available to everyone in that school, the opportunity is there for all kids, those who are interested in it will take part, those who are not won't, that is about as good as you can hope for.

Availablity =/= uptake.

Just to clarify, in my own opinion what is really killing the language is simple lack of opportunity to use it outside the classroom, while it would be nice if art teachers, ballet schools etc etc took to using Irish now and again, I don't see how it is implementable. Ie, as someone interested in Irish, how would I make that happen?
At least by establishing Irish societies in schools, and other things like that, people who are actually interested in Irish get the change to use it, rather than in 20 years time wistfully saying I wish I had learned Irish.

Do you work with kids? If so, would the occasional sentence in Irish really do that much damage?

I'm not saying don't introduce societies into schools, I'm sayign you'll only reach a fraction of your audience if you only do that.

oldmangrub wrote: »

I think it's simplistic to blame the Irish language for the lack of foreign language or tech skills if that's what you're implying but otherwise I do agree with you. We should certainly strive to compete with other countries in terms of supplying multi-lingual graduates. We're not competing on an equal ground in the first place so I do worry how realistic this is in the short or medium term. You're always going to find better among those immersed in a language or exposed to it culturally. The English language is the most dominant language in social media, entertainment etc. You're going to encounter the same exposure problems as and I would say to a worse degree than the Irish language. Personally, I'd be happy if we just improved kids' ability to learn languages. Unfortunately, they will still have to travel abroad and really immerse themselves in the language to acquire the level of proficiency international companies require. Most of them won't benefit financially but some of them will.

I think it's not so much the langage itself, but the fact that for the first 7-8 years of a child's education, it is the only language taught. That's a missed opportunity. The younger a child is, the easier it is to teach them language skills.

Sure, we are at a disadvantage being a primarily English-speaking nation. But that means we need to put more effort into it. Not admit defeat and claim that we can't do it. It's not like it would even be that difficult to do. Many teachers are drawn for arts courses where they studied languages to begin with, and are probably more skilled at languages like French than they are at Irish.

The amount of time devoted to Irish also eats into teaching time for other subjects. Like Computer Science/IT Literacy for instance, which I am still amazed doesn't exist as subjects despite all the governments talk of a so called "smart economy". I can't see any way of introducing subjects like those ones, other than taking away time devoted to Irish.

opti0nal wrote: »

'Common language of Ireland', i.e. we all speak it all of the time as our principal or main language. It's been the Main Aim of the Movement since the late 19th century.

That's why they're terrified of letting go of compulsory Irish lessons for English-speaking children and that's why the Official Languages Act (which includes fines and imprisonment for non-compliance) was introduced along with the Irish Language Enforcement Office in Spiddal.

The who? What?!

Thats not at all harsh. I and all of my generation were daily beaten with sticks and leather straps. Years of this treatment by teachers whom had very bad irish themselves. left us hating the cursed thing.

opti0nal wrote: »

This is 'After Hours'?

You mean you don't know?

Here's a picture of the mothership, presently located in Spiddal:



The Official Languages Act gives the Commissioner with special powers: Then there's those indoctrination camps in the west of Ireland....

... but this only relates to public service. Yes it's a bit of a vanity project and anyone who complains that the can not sign on In Irish even though they can speak perfectly good English is a pit of a pratt, but it's hardly some sort of regime!

I was half expecting some kind of indymedia/limguistic Westboro Baptist church, but as far as I can see, they're cute, but ultimatly harmless.

indioblack wrote: »

What would constitute a revival?
Universal fluency?
Fluency for a percentage of the population?

The reason I asked these basic questions is that a lot of this thread has been about teaching the language and the educational system in general.
I've no experience of Irish schools myself - but you don't need to follow threads like these to realise that many regard the attempts to broadly re-introduce Irish into everyday life as failed policies.
How much of this can be laid at the door of the education system?
And what responsibilty falls on the shoulders of successive governments for this failure - when you look at it baldly it's suprising - since independance I'd have thought politicians would have seen the Irish language as worthy of as much resources as the country could afford.

MysticalRain wrote: »

The lack of foreign language and tech skills among Irish graduates is been well reported in the media during recent years.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2011/1108/1224307200050.html

At company I work for, Irish staff are about 50% of the work force (the numbers of Irish staff at some companies is as low as 20%). We have to search as far as India to recruit staff for some of the more high end positions.

I'm all for having a multi-lingual education system. But the focus cannot be solely on Irish, especially at the national school level. Otherwise it is going to cost us economically.

Of course it doesn't help that the number of students selecting to do Technical /Comp Sci course plummeted during the early 00's. For example the IT degree in NUIG dropped from about 100 students in a year to 12 (circa 2005-6). This was repeated across the country. I know DCU halfed the size of their CompSci course so as to "buttress" the points it had.

Why did applicants drop these courses? Simple really, Greed tied up with the property bubble. People instead applied for courses connected to construction, law (conveyance fees), Quantitate Surveying etc. Alot of this of course was driven by the "mommies of Ireland" no doubt.


Given the massive drop in IT graduates form 2004/5 onwards it's no wonder we have an issue recruiting IT people. For example I have personal experience with it taking 3-4months to find someone for a Junior SysAdmin role. The problem is that there isn't enough people around with 2-3 years work experience for such roles. This is down to choices people made when they filled out their CSO forms back in the heady days of the property bubble.

As for languages, the main reason Google gave for setting up in Ireland (other then tax avoidance) is the fact that it was easier to find staff from any country in Europe in Dublin then it would be in most other European cities. They and other companies of their ilk want native speakers not L2 speakers with dodgy accents. Even if there was significant numbers of Irish people with fluent level ability in the 20+ languages they require they would probably still prefer hiring native speakers.

Either still these staff are still paying income tax/prsi/usc in Ireland and they spend a big chunk of their paypacket here. The fact is that it's lot easier to attract talent into the likes of Dublin from abroad then it to plenty of other cities in Europe.

I've close on 10 years work experience in tech industry (both multinational and small Irish businesses). The biggest issue over last couple years is simple fact that Irish students basically switched off from technical university courses (compare to late 90's anyways) and the property bubble was directly connected to this -- sure who needs to do a "hard course" when ye can make a living flipping houses to each other :rolleyes:

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The reason I try to avoid the subject of compulsion, is that after years of thinking about it I cannot decide in my own head between the pros and cons,therefore it would be just a choice of the moment which side I could debate.

Writing as a philospher engaged in the education, Kevin Williams wrote the following in "Studies" Vol 78 No. 310.

"I would suggest that where a pupil learns Irish or any other subject solely as a consequence of compulsion, physical or psychological, this learning does not count as genuinely educative. This is because learning can be characterised as truly educative only where it is undertaken because of some intrinsic value found in the subject or activity in question. The same can be said of the use of inducements to get pupils to learn Irish as these are but a feature of what is ultimately a manipulative rather than an educational relationship. Such a relationship is clearly at odds with the spirit of engagement to initiate young people into the language as an end in itself, or as being valuable on its own account."

So what has happened in this educational matter? What has happened is that the impositions were not put there for educational purposes but for political ones.Compulsion is not a technique of education but one of power politics. Compulsion does not emanate from any desire to educate but from the desire to control. Compulsory Irish is a manifestation of the crude thinking of ignorant politicians whose purposes relate to power, not to education.