oldmangrub wrote: » As I said, it depends what you consider important. Put simply, culture and heritage are the customs and histories of any people. That's why I'd put culture and heritage under the bracket of knowledge of and engagement with the world around you. I don't think there is an automatic idea that it is 'vital' for everyone, 'valid' would be a more appropriate term. There is a widely held assumption that culture is valid. The Irish language is a language, it doesn't have the power to hold you back. Learning Irish enhances your knowledge of Irish and can't impact negatively on your intellectual development. I think you might be thinking in the education box, which is fine, but combining that with philosophical questions about defining culture confuses the argument. How and ever, I don't think Irish is vital for everyone. And I don't think people who have no interest in it or see it as something holding them back should be taught it beyond the Junior Cert. It's bad for them, bad for their class-mates and bad for the language. As for the extra-curricular activities, there appears to be a lot of them, and they're on the increase. There is a fine line Irish organisations have to walk on; opening any sort of club exclusively for Irish can be seen as elitist. Cú Giobach made a good point about what happens in social gatherings when Irish is not the dominant language. He quoted this; It can be awkward and embarrassing to speak a language to someone with a notably higher or poorer standard than yourself. And a lot of supporters of the language are embarrassed by their own level of attainment sadly.
An Coilean wrote: » Summer Courses in the Gaeltacht cater to 20,000 students + every year. If they were all in the choir, there would not be a problem. Most students who go on one are not involved in the Irish Language outside the Class Room, you often here kids coming off those courses saying that they would love to carry on using Irish in a fun way at home or in school, but invariably that dose not happen because the oppertunity is not there. Thats what the CnaG campaign is aimed at, showing those kids how they can use their Irish when they get back home and back to school. They got to speak to around 12,000 kids last summer.
Outside of schools there are youth clubs that operate through Irish, Ogras, Og-Ogras and Cumann na bhFiann, though I do take your point, the problem is that to organise a club directed at a specific thing, Ballet for example, you need a concentration of young people interested in doing that in Irish. In Dublin you can get that concentration, there was recently a GAA Club set up that operates through Irish.
Irish societies in schools, and universities are extra curricular, they are run by the students themselves, not the teachers. They do a wide range of activities, its up to the members themselves what they want to try. Personally I have more experiance at third level with them than at second level. Believe me though a good Cumann Gaelach has nothing to do with learning Irish in a Class room.
The problem with getting a boxing coach or Art teacher to use a little bit of Irish with the kids they are teaching is that 1) they probably don't have any Irish themselves, 2) they probably don't care and 3) no one has told them to, they are there to teach boxing, not Irish. This is not to say it dose'nt happen now and again, its just very hard to actually implement.
Overall getting a Cumann Gaelach set up in a secondary school still gets the Language out of the class room, once the students themselves are in charge of it, then they can do what they want to, they have ownership of it and get to use it in a fun way. For those promoting Irish this is a more practicle and achievable goal, in my opinion.
LeeroyJ. wrote: » To take on the unemployment rate once more, there are so many international companies in Dublin and Ireland and you know who they are employing? German, French, Spanish, Portugese,Polish, Americans, English etc. Why? Because they are teaching their children 2nd and third languages as of the first grade that actually matter and have a use in this modern world. It's great that having learnt Irish makes you feel more Irish but this should be a the choice of the parents since Ireland is in fact English speaking. And yes I do blame part of the economic problems on the school and language system and that is why we have a unemployment rate of almost 15%. These companies could be hiring Irish people but because of this they prefer to pay for foreigner to move to Ireland to work for them. Great system. We can all see how this is working out here.
oldmangrub wrote: » As I said, it depends what you consider important. Put simply, culture and heritage are the customs and histories of any people. That's why I'd put culture and heritage under the bracket of knowledge of and engagement with the world around you. I don't think there is an automatic idea that it is 'vital' for everyone, 'valid' would be a more appropriate term. There is a widely held assumption that culture is valid.
The Irish language is a language, it doesn't have the power to hold you back. Learning Irish enhances your knowledge of Irish and can't impact negatively on your intellectual development. I think you might be thinking in the education box, which is fine, but combining that with philosophical questions about defining culture confuses the argument. How and ever, I don't think Irish is vital for everyone. And I don't think people who have no interest in it or see it as something holding them back should be taught it beyond the Junior Cert. It's bad for them, bad for their class-mates and bad for the language.
As for the extra-curricular activities, there appears to be a lot of them, and they're on the increase. There is a fine line Irish organisations have to walk on; opening any sort of club exclusively for Irish can be seen as elitist. Cú Giobach made a good point about what happens in social gatherings when Irish is not the dominant language. He quoted this; It can be awkward and embarrassing to speak a language to someone with a notably higher or poorer standard than yourself. And a lot of supporters of the language are embarrassed by their own level of attainment sadly.
Ikky Poo2 wrote: » It literally did - I got held back in second class, purely because my Irish was weak. Everything else was fine. Also, when I wanted to take French at the start of secodary school, it was suggested I didn;t because, again, I was having trouble with Irish.
Ikky Poo2 wrote: » ... but they're going to the Gaeltacht, that's my point! They're already interested!
No you don't. I never said do the enitre class in Irish - that wouldn't work. Just have the teacher or coach introduce Irish gradually, so that kids see it as something that is not just in school, not just in the gaelteach and not just some after-school club. Those that are looking for the outlet, will have it. Those that don't, may see Irish as not being a school subject.
But they are STILL associated with school to the disinterested student. Take it from me - I was one.
"Probably"?? Sorry, but if you attitude is the people you are targeting don't care, you have no hope in hell of selling it. No wonder the langauge is mkaing no progress if this is the attitude. They'll have some expereince. Some focal. They may be disinterested, but if the see role models speaking it, they might see it in a different light. If you only target poeple who are already interested, you'll never get results.
Again, preaching to the choir. You're targeting the kids who are already intrested. You've already excluded the bulk of your target audience by predicting that they probably don't care. Some won't, but some will.
An Coilean wrote: » Since when? The days of CnaG being the only Irish language organisaion are long gone.
oldmangrub wrote: » In my opinion, the reason why those nationalities are superior at language learning is because they were exposed to a second language from the age of 3/4. If the demand for Gaelscoils was met, and if primary schools were to become bilingual in general, it would facilitate language acquisition and literacy at second level and in general. German, French, Spanish bilingual primary schools would do just as good a job and there could well be demand and therefore funding for them in the future. The education system can't be democratic because it would be too difficult to fund. I don't believe people who speak Irish are more Irish and you're putting your own words down hypothetical Irish-speakers' throats. The Irish language is not a cause of our unemployment rate. Do you have any links that support the notion that our international companies are hiring Europeans en masse? Because it hasn't been in the news, which it would be if it were a problem. If they want Irish people with a European language (other than English or Irish) they should look at the Teach na nGealt forum. There seems to be a lot of multi-linguists there. In spite of Irish being considered a valid part of the school curriculum I'm sure.
oldmangrub wrote: » That's what I meant about combining culture and education in the same argument. Irish didn't hold you back. The education system did. In an ideal scenario, the DoE would take language acquisition in general more seriously and Irish teaching would be a help, not a hindrance. The teachers considered you poor at languages, and with the measly hours given to them, you probably were! Now you're living in Berlin and presumably speaking German. It's an indication of a poor education system, not an indictment of Irish or culture in itself. I think your ideas on promoting Irish are very constructive and also generous considering your stance on culture.
An Coilean wrote: » Well lets ignore the many who are there due to pushy parents - looming orals etc. The vast majority of kids who go on a summer camp in the gaeltacht, while interested in the language to an extent, are not involved with it beyond learning it in school. Seems to me this is the perfect group to target.
Any ideas on how to implement this on a wide scale?
Its just stating fact, most boxing coaches etc will have very little or no Irish, it is not enough to say that they will have some cupla focal, no one in my experiance with only a cupla focal will take on using it in a class room situation with kids. Lack of confidence and fear of teaching bad Irish simply preclude people taking something like that on. I would not want to put myself in that kind of situation and I would not expect someone else to do it either.
The whole point in setting up an Irish society in a school is that it is available to everyone in that school, the opportunity is there for all kids, those who are interested in it will take part, those who are not won't, that is about as good as you can hope for.
Just to clarify, in my own opinion what is really killing the language is simple lack of opportunity to use it outside the classroom, while it would be nice if art teachers, ballet schools etc etc took to using Irish now and again, I don't see how it is implementable. Ie, as someone interested in Irish, how would I make that happen? At least by establishing Irish societies in schools, and other things like that, people who are actually interested in Irish get the change to use it, rather than in 20 years time wistfully saying I wish I had learned Irish.
MysticalRain wrote: » The lack of foreign language and tech skills among Irish graduates is been well reported in the media during recent years.http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2011/1108/1224307200050.html At company I work for, Irish staff are about 50% of the work force (the numbers of Irish staff at some companies is as low as 20%). We have to search as far as India to recruit staff for some of the more high end positions. I'm all for having a multi-lingual education system. But the focus cannot be solely on Irish, especially at the national school level. Otherwise it is going to cost us economically.
oldmangrub wrote: » I think it's simplistic to blame the Irish language for the lack of foreign language or tech skills if that's what you're implying but otherwise I do agree with you. We should certainly strive to compete with other countries in terms of supplying multi-lingual graduates. We're not competing on an equal ground in the first place so I do worry how realistic this is in the short or medium term. You're always going to find better among those immersed in a language or exposed to it culturally. The English language is the most dominant language in social media, entertainment etc. You're going to encounter the same exposure problems as and I would say to a worse degree than the Irish language. Personally, I'd be happy if we just improved kids' ability to learn languages. Unfortunately, they will still have to travel abroad and really immerse themselves in the language to acquire the level of proficiency international companies require. Most of them won't benefit financially but some of them will.
indioblack wrote: » Universal fluency?
MysticalRain wrote: I think it's not so much the langage itself, but the fact that for the first 7-8 years of a child's education, it is the only language taught. That's a missed opportunity. The younger a child is, the easier it is to teach them language skills.
opti0nal wrote: » 'Common language of Ireland', i.e. we all speak it all of the time as our principal or main language. It's been the Main Aim of the Movement since the late 19th century. That's why they're terrified of letting go of compulsory Irish lessons for English-speaking children and that's why the Official Languages Act (which includes fines and imprisonment for non-compliance) was introduced along with the Irish Language Enforcement Office in Spiddal.
MysticalRain wrote: » Many teachers are drawn for arts courses where they studied languages to begin with, and are probably more skilled at languages like French than they are at Irish.
Ikky Poo2 wrote: » The who? What?!
opti0nal wrote: » Who: The Conradh What: The Main Aim. They've been living among us for over 100 years.
Ikky Poo2 wrote: » Didn't think it was, which is why I wasquerying it.
Ikky Poo2 wrote: » Also curious about what the Offical Langauges and non compliane bit (non compliance of what...?) not to mention this Spiddal office.
(4) A person who fails or refuses to comply with a requirement under this section or who hinders or obstructs the Commissioner in the performance of his or her functions under this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €2,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.
opti0nal wrote: » This is 'After Hours'? You mean you don't know? Here's a picture of the mothership, presently located in Spiddal: The Official Languages Act gives the Commissioner with special powers: Then there's those indoctrination camps in the west of Ireland....
indioblack wrote: » What would constitute a revival? Universal fluency? Fluency for a percentage of the population?
opti0nal wrote: » Since 18-something. It claims to represent all Irish organizations and has a main aim of restoring Irish as the common language of Ireland.
opti0nal wrote: » The Main Aim. They've been living among us for over 100 years. Then there's those indoctrination camps in the west of Ireland....
Cú Giobach wrote: » The reason I try to avoid the subject of compulsion, is that after years of thinking about it I cannot decide in my own head between the pros and cons,therefore it would be just a choice of the moment which side I could debate.
An Coilean wrote: » Cant get this picture out of my head
Interest in History wrote: » Writing as a philospher engaged in the education, Kevin Williams wrote the following in "Studies" Vol 78 No. 310. "I would suggest that where a pupil learns Irish or any other subject solely as a consequence of compulsion, physical or psychological, this learning does not count as genuinely educative. This is because learning can be characterised as truly educative only where it is undertaken because of some intrinsic value found in the subject or activity in question. The same can be said of the use of inducements to get pupils to learn Irish as these are but a feature of what is ultimately a manipulative rather than an educational relationship. Such a relationship is clearly at odds with the spirit of engagement to initiate young people into the language as an end in itself, or as being valuable on its own account." So what has happened in this educational matter? What has happened is that the impositions were not put there for educational purposes but for political ones.Compulsion is not a technique of education but one of power politics. Compulsion does not emanate from any desire to educate but from the desire to control. Compulsory Irish is a manifestation of the crude thinking of ignorant politicians whose purposes relate to power, not to education.
Cú Giobach wrote: » 1. Compelling people to learn a language in school can foster a dislike of the language which can be counter-productive, and though the evidence appears to show this is a short time dislike here, the oppertunity to learn quite a bit of the language is then lost due to a lack of interest. Plus an educational system alone will not automatically produce viable speakers of a language that is then brought to "community use".
