How to revive the Irish language.

Cú Giobach · 17-08-2012 08:50AM

Interest in History wrote: »

Yes - again.

Given my slant, my interest became an investigation of the Revival of Irish as a political ideology. And so, the basic questions - Cui bono and who-whom came to the fore. Who is benefitting from this, who is the driver, and who is the driven? And like all ideologies The Revival contains a quasi-religious element and this adds its own spicy ingredient to the mix.

I'm trying to note any changes just now in the political support-base for the ideology supportive or the opposite. The politicos usually take mask their position on this. No conclusion yet.

It's time for me to quit the debate for a while. I'll be travelling.

Politics is something I don't really have much of an interest in and am therefore not qualified to discuss in the depth you are, so I couldn't get into a discussion on the issues you raise from a political perspective no matter how much I might want to.
But I can in part comment on your issues.

All over the planet the speakers of endangered languages are trying to ensure their languages will not die out in the face of encroachment by the world's major languages, and in many there is a growing emphasis on actual revival coming from both native speakers and people who are culturally linked to them but for historical reasons mainly speak the encroaching language.
Now because this is a worldwide phenomenon looking at our little part in this from a purely Irish political (or indeed just Irish) perspective, though interesting and well worth looking into, does not and cannot give a proper and well rounded view of why such things happen.
If you read/listen to the people involved in such revival movements worldwide the reasons become much clearer.
A good place to start is here, National Geographic's Enduring Voices Project.
We are not unique in this and because today we are very much on the edge of loosing so much after the industrialisation of the last century and the mass media of the last half century, people who aren't even connected with these disappearing languages and cultures are actually getting involved due to an "awakening" and realisation of what is happening.

I feel it is something inside most of us, this desire to preserve the unique, special and irreplaceable that sadly, often only becomes apparent when we actually get to the very edge, which although results in the saving of much, means we also loose a lot, and our small part in all this just seem to be a natural human response, and not some "quasi-religious" movement unique to this island.

Wibbs · 17-08-2012 09:52AM

Clareboy wrote: »

In order to revive the Irish language, we need to forget about govermment bodies and schools and try and foster a love of the language among the ordinary Irish people. I would suggest that Irish language classes for adults, whose Irish is ' rusty ' be set in every parish hall in the country. The classes could be taught by teachers and others who love the language and want to help others to learn it.

The best of luck with that. 1) you'll be hard pressed to find the teachers and 2) you'll likely be faced with tumbleweed rustling through the parish halls. Look at that recent attempt fronted by the boxing chap whose name I'm afraid escapes me. Looked for 100,000 signups and barely got a quarter of that. As a nation we're happy to pay lip service, but its seems only as Bearla.

Our native Irish language is the most beautiful thing that we have as a nation.

Given the long list of beautiful things we can lay claim to, that's a tad of a stretch. It's most certainly a valuable part of our heritage, but the question is will it remain an active part of our futures.

Interest in History wrote: »

Please define "we" as used in your sentaence.

I'd be interested in that myself.

Reg Huindley, in his book "The Death of the Irish Language" characterises the response of the general population of Ireland to the Revival efforts of the governments as "structured evasion". Meaning that the population can't stop government actions, and that ostensively they must go along with them, but that they indirectly make sure that it all comes to nothing.

That right there pretty much sums the nations attitude to the language alright. For a visual representation the recent Carlsberg ad hit a few nails on the head on this score.

mickydoomsux · 17-08-2012 10:15AM

The thing with language and its usage in general is that it is constantly evolving which is a good thing. For this evolution to take place a form of "natural selection" must take place with minority/unpopular languages being phased out and replaced by more popular ones.

We as a nation are being foolish by trying to hold onto a functionally dead language. The day of the Irish language has passed. It has been replaced by the superior, more useful language of English. The fact that we insist on keeping Irish compulsory in schools is embarrassing, it is an utter waste of time and teaching resources that could be better spent studying a real subject. It's the equivalent of a computer programmer in a modern company refusing to program in anything but Cobol on his 386 from the 90's.

Let the Gaelegoirs have their "culture and heritage" circle jerk on their own time and their own dime.

An Coilean · 17-08-2012 10:30AM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The thing with language and its usage in general is that it is constantly evolving which is a good thing. For this evolution to take place a form of "natural selection" must take place with minority/unpopular languages being phased out and replaced by more popular ones.

We as a nation are being foolish by trying to hold onto a functionally dead language. The day of the Irish language has passed. It has been replaced by the superior, more useful language of English. The fact that we insist on keeping Irish compulsory in schools is embarrassing, it is an utter waste of time and teaching resources that could be better spent studying a real subject. It's the equivalent of a computer programmer in a modern company refusing to program in anything but Cobol on his 386 from the 90's.

Let the Gaelegoirs have their "culture and heritage" circle jerk on their own time and their own dime.

Its sad to see such opinions being so prevelant, what you are arguing for is akin to cultural eugenics.

mickydoomsux · 17-08-2012 10:48AM

Nah, it's just reality. "Culture" is a makey-uppy thing that humans espouse to give the tiny span of our species existance some deeper meaning.

Particular languages don't have an inherent "worth" regardless of how popular they are or aren't. They are a tool that can be changed, discarded or adopted.

Enkidu · 17-08-2012 11:19AM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

"Culture" is a makey-uppy thing that humans espouse to give the tiny span of our species existance some deeper meaning.

Are you a Star Trek villain?

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 11:39AM

An Coilean wrote: »

Its sad to see such opinions being so prevelant, what you are arguing for is akin to cultural eugenics.

He's arguing for progress.

And in the distant future it will happen that the inevitable Chinese/English hybrid will push English out of the nest.
It will do so as it will be more usefull, more universal, better structured with proper assimilation of new words.

Just look at Irishs' take on new words. All it does is bastardise english words and put an accent on them. 20 years from now, if it survives that long, Irish will be unrecognisable as the language it is today, bloated with poorly adopted words.

Imagine a roads with many, many, many patches. Eventually there is hardly any original road left, and it is just better to tear it all up and relay it from scratch.

There is nothing wrong with this.

An Coilean · 17-08-2012 11:46AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

He's arguing for progress.

And in the distant future it will happen that the inevitable Chinese/English hybrid will push English out of the nest.

There is nothing wrong with this.

No he is not, the idea that there are superior cultures and inferior cultures is backwords beyond description.

In the distant future there won't even be English, there will be a family of distinct languages decended from English, this notion of a world language is nonsence, its not gona happen.

As for Chinese, or Mandarin, that is the worlds biggest Language because of the size of the Chinese populaion, its not expanding beyond China.

Dear lord, the language you are posting in has more loan words than any other language in the world, it is actually more loan words than words that came from Old English at this stage. Perhaps it should be torn down too?

Seriously what kind of nonsence are schools teaching?

Edit: From reading another thread, I see what kind of ideology I am dealing with, so I will bow out of this discussion.

Cathyht · 17-08-2012 12:02PM

Surely it isn't nonsence they teach, but nonsense? That's what I was taught.

An Coilean · 17-08-2012 12:06PM

Cathyht wrote: »

Surely it isn't nonsence they teach, but nonsense? That's what I was taught.

You pointed out a dyslexic making a spelling mistake, how big of you.:rolleyes:

Cathyht · 17-08-2012 12:15PM

It tickled my fancy. My 'sence' of humour. How come the spell check didn't bring it to your attention, it is there to serve all bad spellers, it doesn't make distinction.

Cú Giobach · 17-08-2012 12:23PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

He's arguing for progress.

And in the distant future it will happen that the inevitable Chinese/English hybrid will push English out of the nest.
It will do so as it will be more usefull, more universal, better structured with proper assimilation of new words.

Just look at Irishs' take on new words. All it does is bastardise english words and put an accent on them. 20 years from now, if it survives that long, Irish will be unrecognisable as the language it is today, bloated with poorly adopted words.

Imagine a roads with many, many, many patches. Eventually there is hardly any original road left, and it is just better to tear it all up and relay it from scratch.

There is nothing wrong with this.

He's ---- for

.

And in the ----

it will happen that the

/English

will ---- English out of the nest.
It will do so as it will be more ----, more

, better

with

of new words.

look at

take on new words. All it does is

english words and put an

on them. -- years from now, if it

that long, ---- will be

as the

it is today,

with

words.

a roads with many, many, many

.

there is hardly any

road ----, and it is

better to tear it all up and

it from

.

There is nothing

with this.

See what I did there??

LeeroyJ. · 17-08-2012 12:26PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The thing with language and its usage in general is that it is constantly evolving which is a good thing. For this evolution to take place a form of "natural selection" must take place with minority/unpopular languages being phased out and replaced by more popular ones.

We as a nation are being foolish by trying to hold onto a functionally dead language. The day of the Irish language has passed. It has been replaced by the superior, more useful language of English. The fact that we insist on keeping Irish compulsory in schools is embarrassing, it is an utter waste of time and teaching resources that could be better spent studying a real subject. It's the equivalent of a computer programmer in a modern company refusing to program in anything but Cobol on his 386 from the 90's.

Let the Gaelegoirs have their "culture and heritage" circle jerk on their own time and their own dime.

Nothing more to add.

Grayson · 17-08-2012 01:04PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Its sad to see such opinions being so prevelant, what you are arguing for is akin to cultural eugenics.

No it isn't. letting something die that has had it's time isn't eugenics. eugenics would be trying to manufacture it's demise.

We've had compulsary irish for decades. We've had millions, maybe hundreds of millions spent on trying to revive it. And it's as bad as it's ever been. We are flogging a dead horse. Why should we continue to pour money into a project that is an utter, utter failure?

Grayson · 17-08-2012 01:09PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Given the long list of beautiful things we can lay claim to, that's a tad of a stretch. It's most certainly a valuable part of our heritage, but the question is will it remain an active part of our futures.

I think the actual country is more beautiful than the language. We could invest the time and energy spent teaching a dead language into teaching about the natural enviroment.

Considering we're actually killing the planet and our enviroment, I think teaching kids a respect for our natural world would be more important.

indioblack · 17-08-2012 01:27PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The thing with language and its usage in general is that it is constantly evolving which is a good thing. For this evolution to take place a form of "natural selection" must take place with minority/unpopular languages being phased out and replaced by more popular ones.

We as a nation are being foolish by trying to hold onto a functionally dead language. The day of the Irish language has passed. It has been replaced by the superior, more useful language of English. The fact that we insist on keeping Irish compulsory in schools is embarrassing, it is an utter waste of time and teaching resources that could be better spent studying a real subject. It's the equivalent of a computer programmer in a modern company refusing to program in anything but Cobol on his 386 from the 90's.

Let the Gaelegoirs have their "culture and heritage" circle jerk on their own time and their own dime.

Agreed.

Cathyht · 17-08-2012 01:29PM

R u sure it isn't 'nonsence'

dr.bollocko · 17-08-2012 01:31PM

MOD:

Cathy banned for the grammar nazi crap.

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 01:38PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

He's ---- for
.

And in the ----
it will happen that the
/English
will ---- English out of the nest.
It will do so as it will be more ----, more
, better
with
of new words.
look at
take on new words. All it does is
english words and put an
on them. -- years from now, if it
that long, ---- will be
as the
it is today,
with
words.
a roads with many, many, many
.
there is hardly any
road ----, and it is
better to tear it all up and
it from
.

There is nothing
with this.

See what I did there??

Oh you!

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 01:49PM

An Coilean wrote: »

No he is not, the idea that there are superior cultures and inferior cultures is backwords beyond description.

When did i equate language and culture being the same thing?

In the distant future there won't even be English, there will be a family of distinct languages decended from English, this notion of a world language is nonsence, its not gona happen.

There is no term for Old/New irish, as they're still trying to flog the same crap from century's ago. Meanwhile there is a reason why they call old english "old english". You have only to listen to the radio, and be shocked at the amount of english words they have to slip in in order to make it work.

As for Chinese, or Mandarin, that is the worlds biggest Language because of the size of the Chinese populaion, its not expanding beyond China.

English is spoken as the language of business and trade. This will change as the Chinese continue their economic growth and continue their expansion into foreign markets. Matter of time before the language of trade shifts.

Dear lord, the language you are posting in has more loan words than any other language in the world, it is actually more loan words than words that came from Old English at this stage. Perhaps it should be torn down too?

It will be, in its own time, hence why i mentioned the Upcoming Chinese/English hybrid in my last post.

Seriously what kind of nonsence are schools teaching?

ah yes, i dissagree with you, i must therefore be a child just out of school. Hmmm. Seems i forgot to put in a CAO application. how clumsy of me.

Edit: From reading another thread, I see what kind of ideology I am dealing with, so I will bow out of this discussion.

Ouch. no really, ouch!

In red above.

Wibbs · 17-08-2012 01:49PM

Grayson wrote: »

No it isn't. letting something die that has had it's time isn't eugenics. eugenics would be trying to manufacture it's demise.

Indeed, as you point out we've done the complete opposite in the case of the language. We've attempted "cultural eugenics" in it's favour. We did similar with the GAA and to a lesser extent Irish music and dance etc, but in those cases the people wanted it and supported it with their feet and are very popular today. The Irish language is quite simply not supported in practical terms by the people of our nation.

It's a minority pursuit, foisted on and paid for by a majority who abandon it the first chance they get*. Even among those that support it in no uncertain terms, you have farcically high number who have little actual fluency in the language, or who think they're representing our collective culture because they clumsily use a cupla focal as a way to talk among themselves on Spanish holidays.

No amount of legislation for street signs and housing estates as Gaelige will change this. It's nothing more than empty window dressing. And that's sad. Like a badly told Irish joke by some crosseyed gobshíte in a 1970's English working mans club.

*hence the pro side tend to become antsy at the notion of removing compulsion as it would show this large scale abandonment in a very stark light.

Wibbs · 17-08-2012 01:54PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

English is spoken as the language of business and trade. This will change as the Chinese continue their economic growth and continue their expansion into foreign markets. Matter of time before the language of trade shifts./It will be, in its own time, hence why i mentioned the Upcoming Chinese/English hybrid in my last post.

Nope. Highly unlikely to happen. China's future is anything but rosy. It'll be a long time before English is replaced as the lingua franca of commerce. Spanish has a bigger chance than Mandarin. I find when the culture seems to be in a blanket agreement about something such as "the Chinese will take over the world", it's best to see beyond the hype and look at the various underlying realities. Then you'll find the hype is just that.

dubhthach · 17-08-2012 02:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope. Highly unlikely to happen. China's future is anything but rosy. It'll be a long time before English is replaced as the lingua franca of commerce. Spanish has a bigger chance than Mandarin. I find when the culture seems to be in a blanket agreement about something such as "the Chinese will take over the world", it's best to see beyond the hype and look at the various underlying realities. Then you'll find the hype is just that.

Of course if the chinese continue with the one child policy they'll end up halving their population within the next 50 years or so.

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 02:42PM

dubhthach wrote: »

Of course if the chinese continue with the one child policy they'll end up halving their population within the next 50 years or so.

Ok, the whole getting old before they get rich thing may be a bit of a setback, but that doesn't change the fact that there is over 1 billion of them, and they're starting to feed!

Wibbs · 17-08-2012 02:50PM

Already happening D. The amount of young and cheap workers which fueled their massive economic expansion now entering employment is dropping yearly and it's going to get worse. China had over 750,000 primary schools in the arly nineties. That figure had fallen to below 300,000 by the late noughties and continues to drop. In 2009 applications to third level were down by 300,000, a year later they were down by 700,000. These are huge figures, even for China. At the same time their longevity stats went up by a couple of decades. Their aging population (over 60) is set to double over the next five years while their 18-25 year olds will halve. They're going to get old before they get rich.

Their are also hundreds of thousands of appartments that stats show never use electricity or other utilities. They're empty. Homes for millions of people. Yet the Chinese are intent on building more cities in the next ten years. Imagine the Irish celtic tiger on steriods. They're in the middle of and creating the largest commodity boom in world history. This will not end well.

Irish_wolf · 17-08-2012 03:05PM

I like speaking irish with the lads down the pub. But that's about as far as it goes as a language. Languages are easy to learn when you need to learn them, the human mind is equipped to deal with new languages and absorb them naturally when you are completely immersed in it.

The problem is no one needs to learn irish, and probably never will unless you plan on teaching it in some fashion so the drive will never be there.

It would take a sizeable percentage of the whole country to start speaking only irish to each other in order for change to come about but that wont happen despite that fact that most people would like it.

Cú Giobach · 17-08-2012 03:28PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

There is no term for Old/New irish, as they're still trying to flog the same crap from century's ago. Meanwhile there is a reason why they call old english "old english". You have only to listen to the radio, and be shocked at the amount of english words they have to slip in in order to make it work.

Wiki links I know, but they are handy starting places for people who know nothing about a topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Irish

Which us lead to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manx_language

By the way did you miss the point in my taking all the "foreign" words out of your earlier post.

Clareboy · 17-08-2012 10:33PM

Interest in History wrote: »

Can you start the process of engagement right now by giving us some examples that illustrate this richness and that connect to people's feelings?

Just do it, man!

First of all, our family names are for the most part derived from the Irish language as well as our place names. Our most basic sense of identity is firmly rooted in Irish. Even the way we think and use English has its origins in Irish. The Irish language represents the very soul of Ireland and essence of what it means to be Irish.

Clareboy · 17-08-2012 10:37PM

Interest in History wrote: »

Please define "we" as used in your sentaence.

It must be some group, obviously distinct from the "ordinary Irish people" whom you specify as the target of your action. The "we" must be a missionery group of some sort, I guess?

Reg Huindley, in his book "The Death of the Irish Language" characterises the response of the general population of Ireland to the Revival efforts of the governments as "structured evasion". Meaning that the population can't stop government actions, and that ostensively they must go along with them, but that they indirectly make sure that it all comes to nothing.

" we " as in the ordinary people of Ireland. I am not talking about any special group in society.

Pottler · 17-08-2012 10:42PM

How to revive the Irish language? How about a pillow over the airways?
Total, absolute, complete load of old bollix, which, in the fullness of time, will be consigned to the scrap bin, hopefully. A throw-back of the highest order, preserve of the perverse and the pedantic, a blight on our children and a hinderance to the teaching of things that matter, like how to do up a decent quote, compile an invoice and calculate a margin. Better off teaching Spanish, waste of time that that is. Let the bleedin Spaniards learn English, charge them for the priveledge and their accomodation, then blame the Brits for it's prevalance. Result.

How to revive the Irish language.

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