Keep abortion out of Ireland

Again, I on't see how it's comparable to violent crime. As far as I'm aware, it's painless to the foetus if it's performe before 18 weeks gestation. The only possible element of cruelty I'm aware of is the denial of the future potential of the foetus.

FullblownRose wrote: »

Neither the pill nor condoms are fail safe. I doubt if abortion has ever been used as birth control, not in the way I think you mean anyway.

Well that's what you seem to be suggesting? That us pro-lifer's are controlling a womans reproduction by not allowing abortion.

We have to be responsibile with our choices in life.. Sex ... Society would have us believe is a quasi pastime that has no real consequences.. When we do get pregnant some want an easy way out..

Bottom line.. and this is a Thread in a Christian Forum. Life begins at conception and that unique life does not have any more or less value depending on what you or I think.. The Child that is conceived has a unique value in itself that has to be respected.

http://womenhurt.ie/

Did I suggest that? Well, as I have reiterated already, not all unwanted pregnancies arise from unprotected sex. Women practising safe sex still become pregnant too. I don't like the element of blame and preaching there. I could post propaganda myself, but I'm only contributing my views. I know of that site already. I think it's title is a misnomer. Abortion hurts? Only in the physical sense, to the woman, or emotionally if she was coerced or unhappy about doing it.

FullblownRose wrote: »

Did I suggest that? Well, as I have reiterated already, not all unwanted pregnancies arise from unprotected sex. Women practising safe sex still become pregnant too. I don't like the element of blame and preaching there. I could post propaganda myself, but I'm only contributing my views. I know of that site already. I think it's title is a misnomer. Abortion hurts? Only in the physical sense, to the woman, or emotionally if she was coerced or unhappy about doing it.

Your argument removes all responsibility for our acts. Offering abortion as a solution and denying the objective right of the unborn child. Sorry if we come across as preaching. There are many other threads on abortion on boards.ie... But in this forum did you expect Christians to start agreeing with you that killing a Child is right?

Life begins from conception and we respect it.. Its no dogma, its basic teaching that goes back before Christianity. Thou Shall not kill.

My argument is that women take responsibility sometimes by having an abortion. This can mean they are protecting their existing family, themselves, etc, because of circumstances and the effect a new addition to the family or the woman's (or teenage girl's!) life would have. That is taking responsibility too. No, I don't expect Christians to agree with me r.e allowing abortion. I just don't like it when women are labeled a bit flippant and feckless when there are other numerous reasons for unplanned pregnancy. Yes, I am avocating the killing of an unborn baby in the very early stages of development, and I apologise because it's not something anyone really wants to have to stick up for but I feel it's a reality, and it'll continue, and it's neither completely morally wrong or right in my opinion but just something that has to be done sometimes- and yes, *sometimes*, just sometimes, the reasons for it are very flimsy and an easy way out.

I didn't like to say.

StudentDad wrote: »

You have no problem with birth control? Doesn't exactly tally with church teaching.

SD

We can talk about birth control if you like. Better we open a new thread instead of derailing this one.

This Thread is about Children that already exist.

Ahem..Christian Forum..;)

FullblownRose wrote: »

My argument is that women take responsibility sometimes by having an abortion. This can mean they are protecting their existing family, themselves, etc, because of circumstances and the effect a new addition to the family or the woman's (or teenage girl's!) life would have. That is taking responsibility too. No, I don't expect Christians to agree with me r.e allowing abortion. I just don't like it when women are labeled a bit flippant and feckless when there are other numerous reasons for unplanned pregnancy. Yes, I am avocating the killing of an unborn baby in the very early stages of development, and I apologise because it's not something anyone really wants to have to stick up for but I feel it's a reality, and it'll continue, and it's neither completely morally wrong or right in my opinion but just something that has to be done sometimes- and yes, *sometimes*, just sometimes, the reasons for it are very flimsy and an easy way out.

That's just it.. I hear it so many times... "in my opinion" I am not attacking women about this issue. I am standing up for the principle that human life is sacred and that its immoral to kill it. Our opinions don't add or subtract from the value human life has. Life that exists.

Today's society has linked human life and its early stages to our circumstances and allows women a path out... Society is denying the innate value of human life from conception. Human life should not be at the whim of opinions. It should be valued from when it starts to exist until natural death.

Lets face it,, Most abortions in the UK are of disabled children. 80% of downs Syndrome children are aborted.

A friend here in Ireland had their 4th children and at 3 months they found some problem with blood veins in brain, some rare abnormality which meant they child needed an operation at birth. The nurse said to them that in the UK doctors would have advised a termination.. Child is fine now..

We should not see Children as a problem or burden. We should respect them for what they are from conception. Human beings. Not Cells or a group of cells until this or that week..

StudentDad wrote: »

It seems a little strange that you ignore church teaching when it suits you - birth control - yet have a problem with individuals who adopt a different stance when it comes to abortion?

SD

Step back to what I replied to.. The poster we suggesting we are controlling reproduction by not allowing Abortion.. I said if you want to control reproduction use birth control. (lesser evil than killing a child)

I didn't say I agree with birth control..but if you like open a thread and we can discuss., instead of derailing this one about abortion.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Step back to what I replied to.. The poster we suggesting we are controlling reproduction by not allowing Abortion.. I said if you want to control reproduction use birth control. (lesser evil than killing a child)

I didn't say I agree with birth control..but if you like open a thread and we can discuss., instead of derailing this one about abortion.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Isint that what the pill and Condoms are for... birth control ...I have no objection to women controlling their reproduction.

Nuff said.

SD

StudentDad wrote: »

No I never said anything of the sort. What I said was that following on from the X Case the govt. proposed an amendment to the constitution to erase the X Case decision and ensure a total ban on abortion in Ireland. The RCC wanted this referendum to be passed and the majority of the electorate said no.

I hope this has clarified this for you.

SD

philologos wrote: »

You're saying that people who are pro-life should shut up, and you said that it is anti-democratic because the majority of Irish people are pro-choice.

However, there is no reason at all to assume that.

That's a lazy argument. Why are you posting here? What is your aim?

I never said the pro-life lobby should shut up. All I'm saying is that just because you have a moral objection to something does not give you the right to impose that moral belief on others. If you choose to live your life a certain way that is your choice.

SD

philologos wrote: »

If something is profoundly wrong, and if something is a human rights abuse, you don't tolerate it.

I'm intolerant of abortion-by-choice, the willful killing of the unborn because I find it deeply wrong. I don't particularly care what people think about my position. It should be firmly illegal irrespective of where it is.

That is your choice. You are entitled to it. You can live your life any way you choose, within the bounds of law. However, there are others in society who have the polar opposite view. They live their lives as they choose. They do not impact on your life in any way. What right to you have to impose your will on them?

SD

philologos wrote: »

I can't applaud what is immoral. It impacts the lives of others insofar as unborn children are being killed. You're missing that fundamental point.

If there was no child dead as a result of abortion, I'd agree with you. It should be allowed. Since unborn children die, I can't accept it and I will argue against it.

The question isn't what right do I have to impose my will on them, the question is what right do you have to applaud the killing of innocent life?

I am not applauding the killing of innocent life. Innocent life is killed every day on this planet. Children are born into starvation and poverty and abuse. Nothing is done to stop that.

As I said before, just because you believe something does not give you the right to impose that belief on others.

SD