Keep abortion out of Ireland

qrrgprgua

StudentDad wrote: »

I am not applauding the killing of innocent life. Innocent life is killed every day on this planet. Children are born into starvation and poverty and abuse. Nothing is done to stop that.

As I said before, just because you believe something does not give you the right to impose that belief on others.

SD

You tie in abortion to the same field as believing in a faith. While there may be many arguments about God.. As regards to the empirical reality of a Child in the womb.. its there.. it exists. Its not a Belief, its a reality.

StudentDad

qrrgprgua wrote: »

You tie in abortion to the same field as believing in a faith. While there may be many arguments about God.. As regards to the empirical reality of a Child in the womb.. its there.. it exists. Its not a Belief, its a reality.

You are perfectly entitled to believe that. In my opinion however, your belief does not give you the right to prevent others from holding a different stance and acting accordingly.

SD

qrrgprgua

StudentDad wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to believe that. In my opinion however, your belief does not give you the right to prevent others from holding a different stance and acting accordingly.

SD

What stance.... A stance against reality?

philologos

StudentDad wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to believe that. In my opinion however, your belief does not give you the right to prevent others from holding a different stance and acting accordingly.

SD

Why are you posting here if you're just going to repeat yourself again and again and again?

StudentDad

philologos wrote: »

I'm afraid any pro-choicer to a certain degree is encouraging the freedom to destroy life. I can't do that and I won't.

You're going around and around in circles, but ultimately nothing will stop the desire to keep the killing of unborn children as a matter of choice illegal.

It seems like you have nothing to say other than you can't advocate making abortion illegal. The reality is we can and will.

We've heard your POV, but I'll never agree with you. What do you want to gain from posting?

Society is changing rapidly. The decline of organised religion in Western Europe is accelerating year on year. The era of a centralised church of any denomination dictating the moral values of society is past. People are deciding for themselves what is moral and correct, for them.

Some people take the view that conception is the start of life, others, at 14 weeks etc etc. As I've stated before the State should legislate impartially and allow it's citizens to decide matters of moral importance. It is not for the church or anyone else to decide what is correct moral behaviour for a citizen of the State.

SD

spacecookie555

philologos wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to believe that. In my opinion however, your belief does not give you the right to prevent others from holding a different stance and acting accordingly.

SD

Why are you posting here if you're just going to repeat yourself again and again and again?

Why do you come to a debate forum if you do not want to debate but merely criticise everyone who has an opposing view. He is entitled to his opinion as is everyone else on this site. They are your beliefs and what is a belief but a fabrication of the mind to comfort and protect itself from things it does not understand, let others hold their beliefs as they let you hold yours.

qrrgprgua

StudentDad wrote: »

Society is changing rapidly. The decline of organised religion in Western Europe is accelerating year on year. The era of a centralised church of any denomination dictating the moral values of society is past. People are deciding for themselves what is moral and correct, for them.

Some people take the view that conception is the start of life, others, at 14 weeks etc etc. As I've stated before the State should legislate impartially and allow it's citizens to decide matters of moral importance. It is not for the church or anyone else to decide what is correct moral behaviour for a citizen of the State.

SD

Fine then take your argument to another thread.. you are like a broken record and not able to argue the logical facts behind your opinions.

StudentDad

StudentDad wrote: »

Society is changing rapidly. The decline of organised religion in Western Europe is accelerating year on year. The era of a centralised church of any denomination dictating the moral values of society is past. People are deciding for themselves what is moral and correct, for them.

Some people take the view that conception is the start of life, others, at 14 weeks etc etc. As I've stated before the State should legislate impartially and allow it's citizens to decide matters of moral importance. It is not for the church or anyone else to decide what is correct moral behaviour for a citizen of the State.

SD

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Fine then take your argument to another thread.. you are like a broken record and not able to argue the logical facts behind your opinions.

I am being perfectly logical. Taking a dismissive attitude to my stance will not negate its validity.

SD

qrrgprgua

StudentDad wrote: »

I am being perfectly logical. Taking a dismissive attitude to my stance will not negate its validity.

SD

I think it was said a number of times.. This thread is posted in a Christian forum..

Life is sacred and this is fundamental. Its not open to discussion and certainly won't be changed.

You seem to think we should respect your opinion. We don't. Abortion is the will full killing of the unborn child.

spacecookie555

I think theres just no point StudentDad its impossible to argue with 'closemindedness'. No ones allowed question beliefs anymore apparently, people are too scared they might learn something or worse still question their own beliefs!!

philologos

spacecookie555 wrote: »

I think theres just no point StudentDad its impossible to argue with 'closemindedness'. No ones allowed question beliefs anymore apparently, people are too scared they might learn something or worse still question their own beliefs!!

That's rather ironic considering that StudentDad is the one who has argued that pro-lifers don't have a right to speak on these issues. It's also rather ironic considering that StudentDad has also been repeating his views without considering our posts for the last few pages.

I'm done, and I think we should consider this topic done if people aren't going to look at it properly.

FullblownRose

As far as I'm concerned, if I become pregnant and decide to abort the pregnancy, that is my right, if not legally here then abroad- only a pregnant woman can consent to give birth or not to give birth. As previously mentioned, it's debateable whether life begins at conception. Acknowledging that this is a religious forum I suport those in their right to disagree..any previous comments from me were made because the arguments at times went beyond the opined inalieable right to life from conception to derogatory remarks about women and their 'responsibilities', and attempts to trivialise the justification for abortion . Unfortunately the knowledge that pregnant women travel to the uk and holland in discomfort and misery or perform dangerous abortions here might afford some people a sense of righteousness but current abortion law's not doing anything to preserve human life, it just ensuring women don't have terminations where 'decent' Irish people might be aware of it, and the same women don't even talk about the experience in case they 'upset' them!

StudentDad

philologos wrote: »

That's rather ironic considering that StudentDad is the one who has argued that pro-lifers don't have a right to speak on these issues. It's also rather ironic considering that StudentDad has also been repeating his views without considering our posts for the last few pages.

I'm done, and I think we should consider this topic done if people aren't going to look at it properly.

At no point have I argued that pro-lifers don't have a right to speak. I just happen to disagree the pro-life stance adopted here.

SD

FullblownRose

philologos wrote: »

That's rather ironic considering that StudentDad is the one who has argued that pro-lifers don't have a right to speak on these issues. It's also rather ironic considering that StudentDad has also been repeating his views without considering our posts for the last few pages.

I'm done, and I think we should consider this topic done if people aren't going to look at it properly.

I have seen the same thing parroted over and over. ''If you would just use the pill you won't need an abortion'', after pointing out that it isn't always effective. I wonder if anyone is considering anyone else's points really, though.

spacecookie555

philologos wrote: »

spacecookie555 wrote: »

I think theres just no point StudentDad its impossible to argue with 'closemindedness'. No ones allowed question beliefs anymore apparently, people are too scared they might learn something or worse still question their own beliefs!!

That's rather ironic considering that StudentDad is the one who has argued that pro-lifers don't have a right to speak on these issues. It's also rather ironic considering that StudentDad has also been repeating his views without considering our posts for the last few pages.

I'm done, and I think we should consider this topic done if people aren't going to look at it properly.

Im done too Philologos, beliefs will always cause strife and arguments no matter what decade were in, I think the main thing to take from all this though is we all need to learn tolerance, I like to see both sides of the penny but ultimately make up my own mind.

But I do not believe that anyone should be completely disrespectful of anothers beliefs thats just ignorance and a lack of education in my view but hopefully some day we'l learn and instead of fighting each other we'l fight things such as poverty, abuse, hunger etc... Actual important battles that we have a possibility of winning if we just tried. We can only hope, some day...

tatabubbly

I'm not a christian really but i always thought if you brought a child into the world that was unloved/starved/abused due to the fact that it was an unplanned pregnancy, is it catholic behaviour?
i'm pro-choice. i couldnt personally have an abortion, i'm a scientist and for me life starts at implantation however i dont think the catholic church have the right to judge anyone on their moral behaviour.

only the big man upstairs can judge anyone..

qrrgprgua

tatabubbly wrote: »

I'm not a christian really but i always thought if you brought a child into the world that was unloved/starved/abused due to the fact that it was an unplanned pregnancy, is it catholic behaviour?
i'm pro-choice. i couldnt personally have an abortion, i'm a scientist and for me life starts at implantation however i dont think the catholic church have the right to judge anyone on their moral behaviour.

only the big man upstairs can judge anyone..

A. What has the catholic church got to do with it?
B. so the circumstances how the child will live determine their value?

Brer Fox

tatabubbly wrote: »

I'm not a christian really but i always thought if you brought a child into the world that was unloved/starved/abused due to the fact that it was an unplanned pregnancy, is it catholic behaviour?
i'm pro-choice. i couldnt personally have an abortion, i'm a scientist and for me life starts at implantation however i dont think the catholic church have the right to judge anyone on their moral behaviour.

only the big man upstairs can judge anyone..

You lost your science when you said 'for me' - that's relativism. Science says life starts at conception, not implantation. Come on man, this is basic biology!!!

You can't judge persons, but you can and you must judge actions, and abortion is a moral evil.

If I killed your family in a fit of rage, would you say that my actions were evil? Why? What right have you to pass judgement on me?

FullblownRose

The Church have had a lot to do with it so far.

FullblownRose

According to your morals...

Delirium

For those that opposed to abortion because they argue that life begins at conception, do you also oppose IVF? Do you believe that all women should be forced to carry all embryos that are held in storage?

Brer Fox

koth wrote: »

For those that opposed to abortion because they argue that life begins at conception, do you also oppose IVF? Do you believe that all women should be forced to carry all embryos that are held in storage?

IVF is immoral because it separates procreation from marital union. Not only that, but IVF also results in the rejection and destruction of embryos which do not meet 'quality control'. There is a moral conundrum as to what to do with already fertilised human embryos. I believe the Church is still considering that ethical matter. But IVF is something to be avoided. Couples may have recourse to ethical fertility techniques such as NAPRO Technology, they may adopt a child, or they may accept their situation as a cross in life to be endured patiently, with trust in God.

Delirium

Okay, so you oppose IVF. but what is your opinion as to what should be done with the frozen embryos that are currently in storage?

Brer Fox

koth wrote: »

Okay, so you oppose IVF. but what is your opinion as to what should be done with the frozen embryos that are currently in storage?

That is above my pay-grade and I have no answer to your question. As I said the RCC is currently pondering that very question.

As speculation, I would say that they ought to be preserved indefinitely and let nature take its course. God will look after them. To implant them is not, imho, acceptable, as it involves doing evil so good may come of it. But really, I don't know what to do with them.

qrrgprgua

FullblownRose wrote: »

The Church have had a lot to do with it so far.

Which one... The 20,000 plus christian churches that oppose abortion?

Fanny Cradock

koth wrote: »

For those that opposed to abortion because they argue that life begins at conception

I would hope that everyone agrees that life begins at conception and that this isn't a controversial point. The question then to ask is whether the egg has rights, specifically the right to continued life because it is a human life.

::Edit::

I see too late that Brer Fox made the same point above.

FullblownRose

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Which one... The 20,000 plus christian churches that oppose abortion?

Yes, Brer Fox. That is what I meant.

Brer Fox

FullblownRose wrote: »

The Church have had a lot to do with it so far.

To do with what???

FullblownRose

Brer Fox, I was responding to a comment where someone aske someone else what the Church has got to do with abortion. I'd have thought that was apparent, but maybe not.

P.s just a last point

If a woman has no capacity to make a choice in the matter it takes away her humanity, since our capacity to make decisions is part of what makes us human.

Brer Fox

FullblownRose wrote: »

Brer Fox, I was responding to a comment where someone aske someone else what the Church has got to do with abortion. I'd have thought that was apparent, but maybe not.

P.s just a last point

If a woman has no capacity to make a choice in the matter it takes away her humanity, since our capacity to make decisions is part of what makes us human.

People who want to do wrong ought to be stopped. As an example, if I want to attack an old lady, I ought to be stopped by the security services.

The nutter who killed his lover and posted it online had freedom to make his own decision. However, he was not acting in a truly human way.

Human beings are free to do what is right. True freedom is not the freedom to do whatever you like, but the freedom to do what is right, whilst the option to do the contrary is always there.