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Keep abortion out of Ireland
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Again, try to think before you post. There is no strawman.Bannasidhe wrote: »Both a strawman argument response and a thinly veiled insult.
It would. But that is not analogous to what you posted.If one is against the murdering of Jews - then working to combat anti-Semitism and fascism would be an obvious course of action.
People can be working to combat child abuse etc without "worknig tirelessly to ensure that every single child in this country is properly cared for, is warm, well fed, has never suffered either physical or mental abuse, is availing of a good education and is above all loved and cherished".
You were grandstanding - and now you're ticked off because your empty rhetoric has been exposed.
And those are evils that should be eradicated. But your post was still extremely badly thought out.It is not in the slightest a badly thought out post. I see newspaper headlines which tell of children in Ireland who are going to bed hungry. According to a recent front page story in the Examiner 3000 children have witnessed their mother's being raped, threatened or abused in Ireland.
A lot of them are doing a hell of a lot. In my experience, more so than the pro-death lobby.What exactly are those who sing from the every life is sacred hymn book doing to protect those who need protection NOW?
And which of the anti-abortion minded posters on this thread do you know well enough to assert that they aren't devoting as much time and energy to the already born when compared to the few minutes they took to post their opinion in this thread?It's all very well and good championing the unborn but unless one is prepared to devote as much time and energy to the already born is strikes me as empty rhetoric.
Get off your high horse and you might come across as having something more to contribute to the debate.0 -
Again, try to think before you post. There is no strawman.
It would. But that is not analogous to what you posted.
People can be working to combat child abuse etc without "worknig tirelessly to ensure that every single child in this country is properly cared for, is warm, well fed, has never suffered either physical or mental abuse, is availing of a good education and is above all loved and cherished".
You were grandstanding - and now you're ticked off because your empty rhetoric has been exposed.
And those are evils that should be eradicated. But your post was still extremely badly thought out.
A lot of them are doing a hell of a lot. In my experience, more so than the pro-death lobby.
And which of the anti-abortion minded posters on this thread do you know well enough to assert that they aren't devoting as much time and energy to the already born when compared to the few minutes they took to post their opinion in this thread?
Get off your high horse and you might come across as having something more to contribute to the debate.
Given that I actually have a womb, unlike you, I think I have a lot to contribute to a debate on what women can and cannot do with their own bodies.
To have or not have an abortion is not a choice you will personally ever have to make. So perhaps you should mind your own business, get off your high horse, and let the merciful God you claim to believe in be the one to judge the actions of women who have made a choice you disagree with. 'For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.'
But - I shall not post in this thread again as I see the moderator PDN is still allowed to insult people, bully and generally shout down those who disagree with him.0 -
Pro-Death lobby? Seriously?
You are misguided, PDN, you don't have a clue what youre talking about..
Ive already shared my story on this thread, but it's nice to know the Christians have descended into using emotive language to try and get across a point that has been done to death, is archaic, and is seen by the EU as a breach of womens rights..0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »Given that I actually have a womb, unlike you, I think I have a lot to contribute to a debate on what women can and cannot do with their own bodies..
Ho, ho! So when your dodgy logic is exposed you resort to sexism? I'm not qualified to hold an opinion on this subject because I'm male?
Actually, whether I have a womb or not, I am allowed to have an opinion, and to voice it. And your intolerance towards those who don't share your opinion does little to advance your cause.To have or not have an abortion is not a choice you will personally ever have to make. So perhaps you should mind your own business, get off your high horse, and let the merciful God you claim to believe in be the one to judge the actions of women who have made a choice you disagree with. 'For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.'
Your hypocrisy is rather galling. I defend your right to hold, and express an opinion on this subject. You are telling me I don't have that right because of my gender. And you accuse me of shouting you down? LOL.But - I shall not post in this thread again as I see the moderator PDN is still allowed to insult people, bully and generally shout down those who disagree with him.0 -
hattoncracker wrote: »Pro-Death lobby? Seriously?
Ive already shared my story on this thread, but it's nice to know the Christians have descended into using emotive language to try and get across a point that has been done to death, is archaic, and is seen by the EU as a breach of womens rights..
Yes, pro-death. Taking the life away of an unborn child. I think pro-death is a much more accurate description than pro-choice.
And I'm the one who gets accused of insults? :rolleyes:You are misguided, PDN, you don't have a clue what youre talking about..
Both sides have used emotive language here. Bannasidhe's little rant was pretty emotive in my opinion.Ive already shared my story on this thread, but it's nice to know the Christians have descended into using emotive language to try and get across a point that has been done to death, is archaic, and is seen by the EU as a breach of womens rights..0 -
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StudentDad wrote: »The sooner religion is taken out of public life in Ireland the better. Abortion is a private matter. It should available in Ireland as should all other medical procedures. The fact that anyone would impose their beliefs on another human being is abhorrent. If a woman decides to have an abortion to my mind the only other person who deserves to be consulted is the father. Nobody else.
SD
Abortion is not a private matter, it involves a child growing inside her. No child is a property of anyone, God owns that child not the mother. Big difference between owning someone and being responsible for someone. Your intellectual dishonesty ceases to amaze me, at the same time very quick to forget that your very existence was given to you, because your mother chose not to abort. How lucky for you.
This somewhat grey claim, only mirrors your own weak knowledge of what exactly the woman goes through, far worse than an actual pregnancy as anyone knows.
Just a medical procedure, Not really. Haven't you ever heard of post-abortion trauma? A woman is far worse off if she goes through with an abortion, the counsellors will tell you that. Listen to those women who have the courage to speak out of how they regret, and suffered greatly for that decision. Women are 6 times more likely to commit suicide after an abortion, forgot that pretty quick didn't you?
Of course sleazy men who use and abuse these women will argue til the cows come home, as long as they don't have to accept responsibility, and grow up. Instead they prefer to turn down fatherhood, wholly satisfying and good for society, becoming modern day Peter pans, and spend time drinking, and abusing more women, in Neverland, as if nothing has happened.0 -
Are you suggesting that any medic terminating a pregnancy should be charged with murder? Or are you saying any woman who has their pregnancy terminated should be charged with murder? For either interpretation of your claim could you please clarify what countries legal system are you are applying?Atomicjuicer wrote: »Abortion is murder.0 -
Abortion is not a private matter, it involves a child growing inside her. No child is a property of anyone, God owns that child not the mother. Big difference between owning someone and being responsible for someone. Your intellectual dishonesty ceases to amaze me, at the same time very quick to forget that your very existence was given to you, because your mother chose not to abort. How lucky for you.
This somewhat grey claim, only mirrors your own weak knowledge of what exactly the woman goes through, far worse than an actual pregnancy as anyone knows.
Just a medical procedure, Not really. Haven't you ever heard of post-abortion trauma? A woman is far worse off if she goes through with an abortion, the counsellors will tell you that. Listen to those women who have the courage to speak out of how they regret, and suffered greatly for that decision. Women are 6 times more likely to commit suicide after an abortion, forgot that pretty quick didn't you?
Of course sleazy men who use and abuse these women will argue til the cows come home, as long as they don't have to accept responsibility, and grow up. Instead they prefer to turn down fatherhood, wholly satisfying and good for society, becoming modern day Peter pans, and spend time drinking, and abusing more women, in Neverland, as if nothing has happened.
It is a wholly private matter. Whether you agree or disagree with abortion is none of your business when it concerns another person. Similarly, your beliefs are entirely your own. They may or not accord with other people, but at the end of the day you have no right to impose them on others.
SD0 -
Are you suggesting that any medic terminating a pregnancy should be charged with murder? Or are you saying any woman who has their pregnancy terminated should be charged with murder? For either interpretation of your claim could you please clarify what countries legal system are you are applying?
So killing is only murder if it is outlawed by the relevant country's legal system?
By that token the Nazis were not guilty of murdering Jews, since such killings were in accordance with their legal system.0 -
StudentDad wrote: »It is a wholly private matter. Whether you agree or disagree with abortion is none of your business when it concerns another person. Similarly, your beliefs are entirely your own. They may or not accord with other people, but at the end of the day you have no right to impose them on others.
SD
Try substituting "killing a five-year-old" for the word "abortion" in the above quote. While you are entitled to hold your opinion, do you see why such 'logic' is unlikely to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you?0 -
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Im not for or against abortion per se,i think it depends on the circumstance and the people involved,but i do not think ireland is ready for abortion,and i dont think it would be right to bring abortion into ireland now..0
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Try substituting "killing a five-year-old" for the word "abortion" in the above quote. While you are entitled to hold your opinion, do you see why such 'logic' is unlikely to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you?
Sorry mate that argument doesn't work. We are not talking about five year olds. To try and subsitute such examples is frankly ridiculous.
SD0 -
StudentDad wrote: »Sorry mate that argument doesn't work. We are not talking about five year olds. To try and subsitute such examples is frankly ridiculous.
SD
No, it isn't ridiculous at all.
There is a debate going on here about whether it is morally OK to kill an unborn child.
You are trying to argue that it is nobody's business but that of the parents if they choose to kill their unborn child. But that would only apply if you could convincingly demonstrate that killing an unborn child is morally OK.
Otherwise, irrespective of whether the child is still unborn, or born five years ago, it is something on which other people are entitled to have an opinion, and they are entitled to lobby for the law of the land to protect the child.
So maybe you need to come up with some better arguments instead of just saying, "It's none of your business."0 -
No it isn't.Atomicjuicer wrote: »Abortion is murder.
It is only murder when it satisfies the requirements of murder. So a particular killing will only be murder according to a particular jurisdiction if the killing satisfies the requirements for murder in that jurisdiction. This is the problem when you start using a term with a very specific meaning in the wrong way.So killing is only murder if it is outlawed by the relevant country's legal system?
I don't actually know what legislation was in place at the time, but this could be correct. If they had legislation that said the killing of Jews was lawful then, naturally, the killing of Jews would not be murder as far as the German law was concerned.By that token the Nazis were not guilty of murdering Jews, since such killings were in accordance with their legal system.
As an example, let's imagine a house in Texas and a house in Buckingham. In both cases a stranger walk into the garden and stands there. The owners of the house both react in the same way, they take a legally held firearm and shoot the "trespasser" who is merely standing in the garden. My understanding of the law in Texas (which is admittedly shaky) would suggest to me that the house owner there would not be charged with murder.
The house owner in Buckingham would be highly unlikely to be as lucky. He would very likely be charged with a homicide offence, and it could even be murder.
Same act, two places, one murder (potentially) and one lawful killing.
MrP0 -
No, it isn't ridiculous at all.
There is a debate going on here about whether it is morally OK to kill an unborn child.
You are trying to argue that it is nobody's business but that of the parents if they choose to kill their unborn child. But that would only apply if you could convincingly demonstrate that killing an unborn child is morally OK.
Otherwise, irrespective of whether the child is still unborn, or born five years ago, it is something on which other people are entitled to have an opinion, and they are entitled to lobby for the law of the land to protect the child.
So maybe you need to come up with some better arguments instead of just saying, "It's none of your business."
When is comes to abortion it is none of our business. If a woman chooses to have an abortion it is a matter for her in consultation with the father and in consulation with her medical advisors. It is not the concern of any third party.
The imposition of 'moral' values to this situation is irrelevant. If abortion is available in law it isn't compulsory. If an individual chooses to avail or not to avail of the procedure it is their choice.
SD0 -
So killing is only murder if it is outlawed by the relevant country's legal system?
By that token the Nazis were not guilty of murdering Jews, since such killings were in accordance with their legal system.
I asked what legal system you had in mind if you claim someone say the mother whose preganancy was terminated or the medic terminating the pregnancy, should be charged with murder. Your reference to Nazism is spurious as they would be open to charges of genocide and brought to the International Court of Justice , as have been war criminals from the Balkans and Africa.0 -
StudentDad wrote: »It is a wholly private matter. Whether you agree or disagree with abortion is none of your business when it concerns another person. Similarly, your beliefs are entirely your own. They may or not accord with other people, but at the end of the day you have no right to impose them on others.
SD
It is not a private matter, since what people do in society affects me, indirectly, personally. Women bring the emotional trauma with them back into society, and that affects others. Then there's the lowering of standards in the maternity care of countries that allow abortion, as reports have revealed.
You accuse me of imposing my views on you, but that's exactly what you're doing now, and I'm against the muder of the unborn, you're not. A self-defeating statement if I ever saw one. Man up and show some courage and admit the truth. Surely if what anyone did didn't affect society, and certainly me, what problem would I have? A society that treats children as inconveniences so to dispose of them, is not a society I want to live in; I live in this society, so I'll speak up if I please.0 -
It is not a private matter, since what people do in society affects me, indirectly, personally. Women bring the emotional trauma with them back into society, and that affects others. Then there's the lowering of standards in the maternity care of countries that allow abortion, as reports have revealed.
You accuse me of imposing my views on you, but that's exactly what you're doing to now, and I'm against the muder of the unborn, you're not. A self-defeasting statement if I ever saw one. Man up and show some courage and admit the truth. Surely if what anyone did didn't affect society, and certainly me, what problem would I have? A society that treats children as inconveniences so to dispose of them, is not a society I want to live in; I live in this society, so I'll speak up if I please.
You can say whatever you like - within the law - However, if the legal status of abortion is sorted out in Ireland (and it should be) whether a woman decides to have an abortion is frankly none of your business. We have the crazy situation where women are forced to travel to the UK if they need to avail of the procedure. Nobody is arguing for compulsory abortion. It is a personal matter.
I'm not going to get into the nonsense that is your 'emotional trauma' statement.
SD0 -
StudentDad wrote: »When is comes to abortion it is none of our business. If a woman chooses to have an abortion it is a matter for her in consultation with the father and in consulation with her medical advisors. It is not the concern of any third party.
The imposition of 'moral' values to this situation is irrelevant. If abortion is available in law it isn't compulsory. If an individual chooses to avail or not to avail of the procedure it is their choice.
SD
So, you refuse to provide any rationale other than "None of your business". In that case my point stands. You can apply the exact same argument to mudering five year olds.
If the State makes it permissable by law to kill five-year-olds, then that would not be compulsory. If an individual chose to kill their five-year-old or not would be their choice.0 -
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So, you refuse to provide any rationale other than "None of your business". In that case my point stands. You can apply the exact same argument to mudering five year olds.
If the State makes it permissable by law to kill five-year-olds, then that would not be compulsory. If an individual chose to kill their five-year-old or not would be their choice.
I don't need to provide any other rationale beyond, 'it's none of your business.' This is a moral argument which is irrelevant. You can say abortion is morally wrong and I can say that stance is irrelevant. What is relevant is the law. What matters is what the law says. Not what you think is morally correct or otherwise. By legislating impartially the state places the decision into the hands of it's citizens. Those who choose to avail of abortion may do so. Those who do not wish to do not have to. So in that sense, whether a woman chooses to have an abortion or not, really is none of your business.
SD0 -
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StudentDad wrote: »I don't need to provide any other rationale beyond, 'it's none of your business.' This is a moral argument which is irrelevant. You can say abortion is morally wrong and I can say that stance is irrelevant. What is relevant is the law. What matters is what the law says. Not what you think is morally correct or otherwise. By legislating impartially the state places the decision into the hands of it's citizens. Those who choose to avail of abortion may do so. Those who do not wish to do not have to. So in that sense, whether a woman chooses to have an abortion or not, really is none of your business.
SD
So, since the law forbids abortion, that makes it none of your business? OK.0 -
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So, since the law forbids abortion, that makes it none of your business? OK.
hmm, technically 'forbids' is wrong here.
It's a legal grey area. Whilst it is considered illegal in terms of how 'available' it is, women can still get it based on serious health issues. They're just usually shipped off to the UK to have it done.
My personal opinion is that the same rules should be kept in place here, but that women can have it done here in Ireland, instead of having to travel abroad to do so.0 -
StudentDad wrote: »I don't need to provide any other rationale beyond, 'it's none of your business.' This is a moral argument which is irrelevant. You can say abortion is morally wrong and I can say that stance is irrelevant. What is relevant is the law. What matters is what the law says. Not what you think is morally correct or otherwise. By legislating impartially the state places the decision into the hands of it's citizens. Those who choose to avail of abortion may do so. Those who do not wish to do not have to. So in that sense, whether a woman chooses to have an abortion or not, really is none of your business.
SD
So, since the law forbids abortion, that makes it none of your business? OK.
I have my opinion on abortion and whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant. It should be legally available to those who wish to avail of it.
It insane that citizens of this state have to travel to another jurisdiction to avail of a procedure that is unavailable here not on medical grounds, on the moral opinion of a church etc.
This country is supposed to be a Republic and on that basis we need an absolute separation of church and state.
SD0 -
StudentDad wrote: »I have my opinion on abortion and whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant. It should be legally available to those who wish to avail of it.
It insane that citizens of this state have to travel to another jurisdiction to avail of a procedure that is unavailable here not on medical grounds, on the moral opinion of a church etc.
This country is supposed to be a Republic and on that basis we need an absolute separation of church and state.
SD
Insane is the other state that allows it... Lets face it, Britains abortion laws shine a light on the culture where only 20% of parents see value is a child with Downs Syndrome because 80% of disabled children are aborted. A Country that allows a women to abort for whatever reason even when she dosen't want another daughter. A Country that aborted children with Cleft pallet.
Why are you bringing Church into the argument. Church and state are separate. And the reason we don't have abortion in Ireland is because it was voted down.. Twice ... by the people of the republic.
Also its not the moral opinion of "The church"... there are evangelicals, protestants, Methodists, Catholics in this forum... All of us stand together in protection of the fundamental human right to life.. life that exists from conception...0 -
StudentDad wrote: »I have my opinion on abortion and whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant. It should be legally available to those who wish to avail of it.
It insane that citizens of this state have to travel to another jurisdiction to avail of a procedure that is unavailable here not on medical grounds, on the moral opinion of a church etc.
This country is supposed to be a Republic and on that basis we need an absolute separation of church and state.
SD
Insane is the other state that allows it... Lets face it, Britains abortion laws shine a light on the culture where only 20% of parents see value is a child with Downs Syndrome because 80% of disabled children are aborted. A Country that allows a women to abort for whatever reason even when she dosen't want another daughter. A Country that aborted children with Cleft pallet.
Why are you bringing Church into the argument. Church and state are separate. And the reason we don't have abortion in Ireland is because it was voted down.. Twice ... by the people of the republic.
Also its not the moral opinion of "The church"... there are evangelicals, protestants, Methodists, Catholics in this forum... All of us stand together in protection of the fundamental human right to life.. life that exists from conception...
Again that is your opinion and as such that's all it is, an opinion. The reason I bring the church into this is because they are involved in the running of publically funded schools and universities. They get a say in policy and how these state bodies are run. I did not elect any church members to these positions. The church has no business in these areas of the state. If it wants a say in these matters it should run for election.
To say that the church and state are separate in Ireland is laughable. When the church is gone from publically funded institutions and does not have members of its clergy etc in positions of authority within these institutions, then we can talk about separation of church and state.
This country is supposed to be a republic, ergo morally neutral. That being the case. A woman who wants a medical procedure that is freely available in other EU member states, should not have her wishes ignored because somebody with no direct relevance to her life and more than likely will never see, has decided her wishes are wrong.
SD0 -
StudentDad wrote: »I have my opinion on abortion and whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant. It should be legally available to those who wish to avail of it.
It insane that citizens of this state have to travel to another jurisdiction to avail of a procedure that is unavailable here not on medical grounds, on the moral opinion of a church etc.
This country is supposed to be a Republic and on that basis we need an absolute separation of church and state.
SD
Now, now, once you start arguing what 'should' be, then you are entering the realm of morality. And, according to you, morality is irrelevant - all that matters is the law.
A bit of consistency wouldn't go amiss.0 -
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StudentDad wrote: »I have my opinion on abortion and whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant. It should be legally available to those who wish to avail of it.
It insane that citizens of this state have to travel to another jurisdiction to avail of a procedure that is unavailable here not on medical grounds, on the moral opinion of a church etc.
This country is supposed to be a Republic and on that basis we need an absolute separation of church and state.
SD
Now, now, once you start arguing what 'should' be, then you are entering the realm of morality. And, according to you, morality is irrelevant - all that matters is the law.
A bit of consistency wouldn't go amiss.
I am not being inconsistent. I am saying that belief is a private matter. If an individual believes abortion is wrong. Fine. That's where it stops. That individual does not have the right to extend that belief onto others.
SD0
This discussion has been closed.
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