Keep abortion out of Ireland

Delirium

Sin City wrote: »

Would execution be a better fit?

what crime would the foetus/embryo be guilty of?

Sin City

koth wrote: »

what crime would the foetus/embryo be guilty of?

Execution doesnt have to be carried out by a court judgement

PDN

koth wrote: »

what crime would the foetus/embryo be guilty of?

Execution does not require a crime. Totalitarian regimes may well execute someone simply because their presence is inconvenient.

Delirium

Sin City wrote: »

Execution doesnt have to be carried out by a court judgement

PDN wrote: »

Execution does not require a crime. Totalitarian regimes may well execute someone simply because their presence is inconvenient.

Fair enough. I always understood it that you had to be found guilty of something to be executed. It seems it can also be used to describe someone killed as a political act.

But taking onboard what PDN has added, how does the term execution apply to abortion? Not trying to be argumentative, really do want to understand where Sin City is coming from.

StudentDad

Fascinating to see that this thread has gone off on an emotional tangent bordering on the absurd. I'll come back when people have left their emotional baggage at the door.

SD

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

I am not sure this is a great analogy, to be honest. For a start, there is no need to change the law in this area. Whilst the killing of a new born and a toddler is a terrible and sad thing, society and the law have already decided that people that carry out this kind of act are not necessarily murderers, at the very least they will have a partial defence but could even have a full acquittal. No need to change the law. You might not like that, but it doesn’t change the fact.

The fragility of humans is regularly taken into account by the law, it is written into statues and accepted as mitigation by judges. I don’t see how this would be any different.

It is a great analogy in that it indicates that the desperate acts of sad people do not make for good laws.

Just as there is no need to change the law to permit infanticide, so there is no need to change the law to permit abortion. In the kind of emotive horror stories that are presented as if they justify changing the law, we rather need to treat those individuals who killed their unborn children as being in need of treatment.

Thank you for making that point so eloquently.

This, btw, was my main complaint with Clare Daly's failed motion in the Dail. She pretended it was limited to the tiny number of cases where the mother's life is genuinely at risk - but then claimed she was doing it for the thousands of women who have to travel to the UK for abortions (most of whom, as any reasonable admits, were not running some great risk of death).

I find it ironic that the pro-abortion lobby keep accusing the pro-life side of using emotive language, yet at the same time they will use rare and extreme cases and try to use them to open the door for abortion on demand.

Sin City

koth wrote: »

Fair enough. I always understood it that you had to be found guilty of something to be executed. It seems it can also be used to describe someone killed as a political act.

But taking onboard what PDN has added, how does the term execution apply to abortion? Not trying to be argumentative, really do want to understand where Sin City is coming from.

Political and judical executions are again not the only terms in use.
Execution definition : premeditated killing of a human by a human

or more simply, being put to death

PDN

koth wrote: »

Fair enough. I always understood it that you had to be found guilty of something to be executed. It seems it can also be used to describe someone killed as a political act.

But taking onboard what PDN has added, how does the term execution apply to abortion? Not trying to be argumentative, really do want to understand where Sin City is coming from.

Abortion, in many parts of the world, is used to remove the inconvenient (a female unborn baby in a society that prefers male babies, a second child in a nation that practices a one-child policy, or simply because "I'm not ready to have a baby at this stage of my career"). Execution (literally 'carrying out') sounds a reasonable alternative to those who object to the word 'murder' on pedantic grounds.

golden lane

MrPudding wrote: »

I am not sure this is a great analogy, to be honest. For a start, there is no need to change the law in this area. Whilst the killing of a new born and a toddler is a terrible and sad thing, society and the law have already decided that people that carry out this kind of act are not necessarily murderers, at the very least they will have a partial defence but could even have a full acquittal. No need to change the law. You might not like that, but it doesn’t change the fact.

The fragility of humans is regularly taken into account by the law, it is written into statues and accepted as mitigation by judges. I don’t see how this would be any different.

Abortion is not murder and it most certainly is not a crime in countries where it is allowed. There is abortion in the UK, it is neither murder, nor is it a crime. I think you will find this is the case in any country where there are abortions available.

You misuse the word murder. I understand to want to make an emotional point. I understand you want to show how much you deplore the act. I understand you want to make the women who feel they need a abortion feel bad and try to demonise them as part of you campaign. But the simple fact of the matter is this; the word murder has a very specific meaning. It means a very specific thing. As a result of this it does not apply in cases of abortion in jurisdictions where abortion is legal. Even in places where abortion is not legal it is still unlikely to be the correct term as a foetus generally will not legally fulfil the requirements for the being that has to be unlawfully killed for there to be a murder.

Perhaps it is a pedantic point, but the misuse of this word annoys me. I appreciate that the pro-life guys like it for the perceived emotional impact, but it is simply wrong.

MrP

the emotional impact on pro life people differs, for different reasons.....

i am pro life, and if anything i get more annoyed than emotional. i just cannot accept that people want to abort what the have concieved..

murder, yes i use that word, not for emotional impact.....but for the taking of life, a life which in my opinion nobody has the right to take.....

FullblownRose

I suppose the point is you prefer to use the word murder but by definition it's abortion and never murder.

Could the moderator please let me know if my post in which I responded to him, has been deleted for some reason? Or did it just not post successfully?

qrrgprgua

FullblownRose wrote: »

I suppose the point is you prefer to use the word murder but by definition it's abortion and never murder.

Pro-abortion camp as usual trying to redefine reality.

PDN

FullblownRose wrote: »

Could the moderator please let me know if my post in which I responded to him, has been deleted for some reason? Or did it just not post successfully?

Your post was deleted for back seat modding. The Forum Charter states:
"Do not discuss moderation decisions in a thread. If you have an issue with the actions of a mod, please contact them via PM. If the dispute has not been resolved after this correspondence, the correct procedure is to then PM the C-mods. If the issue remains unresolved, a thread should be started on the Dispute Resolution Forum."

FullblownRose

PDN wrote: »

Your post was deleted for back seat modding. The Forum Charter states:
"Do not discuss moderation decisions in a thread. If you have an issue with the actions of a mod, please contact them via PM. If the dispute has not been resolved after this correspondence, the correct procedure is to then PM the C-mods. If the issue remains unresolved, a thread should be started on the Dispute Resolution Forum."

I see. Thank you for answering my question.

qrrgprgua

Heard a woman talking today about womans rights and she said "A womans rights begin when her body begins" Even if she lives in her mothers womb. She was talking about how abortion has divided many feminist movements and detracted from the real issues in society.. Equal pay, full child care, career opportunities. Pro-choice have tied abortion in with woman's rights. The issue deflects from the real issues.

Abortion is not a solution. its a dead end. Why not fight for a society that accepts woman and their human right to have children.. instead of pressuring them to get rid of them because they can't afford them or because there aren't the services to help them raise a disabled child.

FullblownRose

That's the ideal.

KyussBishop

My point of view on abortion is a bit of a cop-out point of view, which conveniently lets me avoid most of the more controversial arguments:
If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, I think she should have the right to abort that child; it is not right that a woman who has been raped, should have to undergo the physical affects of pregnancy and have to dedicate much of the rest of her life to taking care of a child she did not want and may not be capable of supporting, that was forced upon her; it further compounds the effects of the crime and the victimization of the woman.

In addition to that, rape as a crime is not always possible to prove (in many cases it is not possible at all), so if you agree in principal to allow abortion for rape victims (and that it would be unethical not to), you must acknowledge that rape is often not provable, thus you must allow abortion for all women, otherwise many rape victims who can't prove rape will be unable to get an abortion.

So, that handily avoids most of the more controversial arguments Do people think rape victims should be allowed to have abortions?

Sonics2k

qrrgprgua wrote: »

instead of pressuring them to get rid of them because they can't afford them or because there aren't the services to help them raise a disabled child.

To be fair, I don't think anyone here as said anything about "pressuring" a woman into an abortion.

What the Pro-Choice people are saying is that it should be an option provided certain criteria are met.

Basically the same ones already set here, but so that the woman can get it done here in Ireland, rather than flying out to UK.

qrrgprgua

Sonics2k wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think anyone here as said anything about "pressuring" a woman into an abortion.

What the Pro-Choice people are saying is that it should be an option provided certain criteria are met.

Basically the same ones already set here, but so that the woman can get it done here in Ireland, rather than flying out to UK.

Why are women pressured into abortion in the first place? Either they are too young or too old,, or its disabled and they don't want it.

By all accounts (from the stories of parents taking daughters to England) its not a "free Choice" is a pressured one.

There are social pressures that push women to abortion... If you have a Child at 18 you will never go to uni.. your career is finished etc. etc.. If you have a Downs Child you will have to look after it all your life,it will be dependent etc etc.

Malari

You seem to have a very narrow view of why women have abortions. It's not all pressure and it's not all bad timing.

qrrgprgua

KyussBishop wrote: »

My point of view on abortion is a bit of a cop-out point of view, which conveniently lets me avoid most of the more controversial arguments:
If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, I think she should have the right to abort that child; it is not right that a woman who has been raped, should have to undergo the physical affects of pregnancy and have to dedicate much of the rest of her life to taking care of a child she did not want and may not be capable of supporting, that was forced upon her; it further compounds the effects of the crime and the victimization of the woman.

In addition to that, rape as a crime is not always possible to prove (in many cases it is not possible at all), so if you agree in principal to allow abortion for rape victims (and that it would be unethical not to), you must acknowledge that rape is often not provable, thus you must allow abortion for all women, otherwise many rape victims who can't prove rape will be unable to get an abortion.

So, that handily avoids most of the more controversial arguments Do people think rape victims should be allowed to have abortions?

The Rape and abortion argument is a tiny proportion of the abortions that happen. 99+% of abortions are not the result of Rape.

You can turn the argument and ask.. Is it the child's fault he or she was conceived? Does who your father is or where you were born or what your mother thinks make you any more or less valuable as a human being?

I am not going to comment on a womans state of mind after rape. If she aborts, who am I to judge her. But I can defend the principle that all people are equal, and all life is sacred.. No baby is more or less important. Everyone should be respected. Even the Child in the womb.

tatabubbly

Brer Fox wrote: »

tatabubbly wrote: »

I'm not a christian really but i always thought if you brought a child into the world that was unloved/starved/abused due to the fact that it was an unplanned pregnancy, is it catholic behaviour?
i'm pro-choice. i couldnt personally have an abortion, i'm a scientist and for me life starts at implantation however i dont think the catholic church have the right to judge anyone on their moral behaviour.

only the big man upstairs can judge anyone..

You lost your science when you said 'for me' - that's relativism. Science says life starts at conception, not implantation. Come on man, this is basic biology!!!

You can't judge persons, but you can and you must judge actions, and abortion is a moral evil.

If I killed your family in a fit of rage, would you say that my actions were evil? Why? What right have you to pass judgement on me?

i wouldn't say your actions are 'evil' as such as i don't use that word but i would say they were wrong.

if your against abortion then in my eyes its like saying every woman in the world is a walking incubator and has no right over her own body.

science says a whole lot about life, also it says a lot about death, definitions differ.

Sonics2k

I can just as easily say that many women are pressured into keeping a child they do not want.
It happens, and that's unfortunate and horrible in both cases.

But I'm really trying to avoid the emotional arguments being thrown around on both sides of the debate here, so I am talking about the individual free will of the woman involved.
There is no point in this incredibly sensitive discussion if people are going to throw out words they know will come across as emotional to suit their agenda.

So. Here is the situation as it currently stands. From Citizens Information

Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life, (as distinct from the health) of the mother. This includes a risk arising from a threat of suicide. The Irish Medical Council ethical guidelines to doctors state that 'it is not unethical if a child in utero should suffer or lost its life as a side effect of standard medical treatment of the mother'.

Women may not be prevented from travelling abroad to get an abortion. It is lawful to provide information in Ireland about abortions abroad, subject to strict conditions. It is not lawful to encourage or advocate an abortion in individual cases.

The debate now (though I realize the odds of that happening on this forum are slim) should focus on whether or not the procedure should be carried out here in Ireland, or continue with the current system of sending them to the U.K. to get it done.

-Regardless- of your opinion of the morality of the situation, should we continue to force those who choose to have an abortion travel to the U.K., or allow them to have it done here at home, where they can avail of full moral support from family and friends.

qrrgprgua

tatabubbly wrote: »

i wouldn't say your actions are 'evil' as such as i don't use that word but i would say they were wrong.

if your against abortion then in my eyes its like saying every woman in the world is a walking incubator and has no right over her own body.

science says a whole lot about life, also it says a lot about death, definitions differ.

Every woman has the right over her own body.. never a truer word said.. It also applies to a woman in the womb of her mother and to her brother.

Brer Fox

qrrgprgua wrote: »

If she aborts, who am I to judge her. But I can defend the principle that all people are equal, and all life is sacred.. No baby is more or less important. Everyone should be respected. Even the Child in the womb.

You can't judge her soul, but you can and must judge her actions as gravely immoral. It is always an evil thing to kill a child.

qrrgprgua

Sonics2k wrote: »

The debate now (though I realize the odds of that happening on this forum are slim) should focus on whether or not the procedure should be carried out here in Ireland, or continue with the current system of sending them to the U.K. to get it done.

If a woman's life is a risk in Ireland an abortion will be carried out. Its not called abortion as the intention is not to target the Child. We don't need to change anything.

Many of these procedures happen in Ireland every year. Happened to my friend. Everything is done to save BOTH parties. But sadly sometimes the Child dies to save the mothers life.

tatabubbly

qrrgprgua wrote: »

tatabubbly wrote: »

i wouldn't say your actions are 'evil' as such as i don't use that word but i would say they were wrong.

if your against abortion then in my eyes its like saying every woman in the world is a walking incubator and has no right over her own body.

science says a whole lot about life, also it says a lot about death, definitions differ.

Every woman has the right over her own body.. never a truer word said.. It also applies to a woman in the womb of her mother and to her brother.

but what you just said implies what i said above.. that its like treating women as walking incubators.

At what second exactly does the embryo become a woman? when they are inside the womb or when they are old enough to make their own choices about their body and reproductive system?

But what about the child who comes from an unwanted pregnancy? Its a hard truth to grow up knowing your not wanted. It's also difficult to grow up in a world if your born into poverty.
Is there an answer to these questions as well?

The church should not be involved when it comes to a health matter. If the catholic church doesn't agree with it, thats fine but they should not have the right to stop someone. Free will and all that jazz

Blue_Seas

Can I ask a question?

If abortion remained illegal, what should be the penalty for someone who has an illegal abortion?

neemish

Brer Fox wrote: »

You can't judge her soul, but you can and must judge her actions as gravely immoral. It is always an evil thing to kill a child.

"Let he who is without sin......." it's not our place to judge.
I do not agree with abortion, but as for judgement - that's for God, not me (or you)

Blue_Seas

Actually I'm not even going to go through the whole rigmarole myself. "How to confuse a pro-lifer with one question".

FullblownRose

Blue_Seas wrote: »

Can I ask a question?

If abortion remained illegal, what should be the penalty for someone who has an illegal abortion?

I'm sorry to say the penalty is life imprisonment, whether that would happen in reality I don't know and sincerely hope not.


For anyone interested in reading genuine information and abortion stories there is a website called women on web you might like to look at. Many Irish women have contributed.