Keep abortion out of Ireland

whenever · 16-06-2012 08:23PM

Ok re-windiing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicjuicer {Not PDN sorry about that}
"Abortion is murder. "
I ask in what state would such a charge be made and who would be the accused?

equivariant · 16-06-2012 08:27PM

StudentDad wrote: »

Sorry mate that argument doesn't work. We are not talking about five year olds. To try and subsitute such examples is frankly ridiculous.

SD

I have noticed that almost without exception I find myself disagreeing with anyone who see the word "mate" in a post (regardless of the topic)

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 08:29PM

equivariant wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

Sorry mate that argument doesn't work. We are not talking about five year olds. To try and subsitute such examples is frankly ridiculous.

SD

I have noticed that almost without exception I find myself disagreeing with anyone who see the word "mate" in a post (regardless of the topic)

Fair enough mate. That's your choice :-P

SD

PDN · 16-06-2012 08:33PM

StudentDad wrote: »

I am not being inconsistent. I am saying that belief is a private matter. If an individual believes abortion is wrong. Fine. That's where it stops. That individual does not have the right to extend that belief onto others.

SD

And your belief that abortion should be allowed is a private matter. You don't have the right to extend that to others.

philologos · 16-06-2012 08:36PM

StudentDad wrote: »

I am not being inconsistent. I am saying that belief is a private matter. If an individual believes abortion is wrong. Fine. That's where it stops. That individual does not have the right to extend that belief onto others.

SD

You're essentially saying that people should applaud human rights abuses. As a Christian, I can't applaud sin, but as a human being I can't applaud destroying human life as a matter of 'choice'.

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 08:38PM

PDN wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

I am not being inconsistent. I am saying that belief is a private matter. If an individual believes abortion is wrong. Fine. That's where it stops. That individual does not have the right to extend that belief onto others.

SD

And your belief that abortion should be allowed is a private matter. You don't have the right to extend that to others.

I'm not trying to. I personally abhor abortion. However, it should not be denied another citizen just because I don't like it.

We are citizens of the state and bound by law. As such parliament needs to take all points of view into account and legislate in a neutral manner.

SD

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 08:41PM

philologos wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

I am not being inconsistent. I am saying that belief is a private matter. If an individual believes abortion is wrong. Fine. That's where it stops. That individual does not have the right to extend that belief onto others.

SD

You're essentially saying that people should applaud human rights abuses. As a Christian, I can't applaud sin, but as a human being I can't applaud destroying human life as a matter of 'choice'.

I am not saying anything of the sort!

Whether you applaud sin or not is irrelevant. Whether another individual chooses to something which you disagree with but is legal is also irrelevant.

SD

qrrgprgua · 16-06-2012 08:45PM

StudentDad wrote: »

I am not saying anything of the sort!

Whether you applaud sin or not is irrelevant. Whether another individual chooses to something which you disagree with but is legal is also irrelevant.

SD

History is littered with laws states have passed which were immoral. Legal and Moral are 2 different things.

Luckily in Ireland we still see it as illegal and immoral to kill a child.

qrrgprgua · 16-06-2012 08:48PM

StudentDad wrote: »

I'm not trying to. I personally abhor abortion. However, it should not be denied another citizen just because I don't like it.

We are citizens of the state and bound by law. As such parliament needs to take all points of view into account and legislate in a neutral manner.

SD

Its not about what anyone thinks.. A life that exists should have the right to life.. Life should not be subjective to the whims of the demos... Human Life has an objective reality and nobody has the right to remove its value.

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 08:49PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

I am not saying anything of the sort!

Whether you applaud sin or not is irrelevant. Whether another individual chooses to something which you disagree with but is legal is also irrelevant.

SD

History is littered with laws states have passed which were immoral. Legal and Moral are 2 different things.

Luckily in Ireland we still see it as illegal and immoral to kill a child.

We? You claim to speak for everybody? Again morality is a private matter and nobody is advocating the killing of children.

SD

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 08:52PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

I'm not trying to. I personally abhor abortion. However, it should not be denied another citizen just because I don't like it.

We are citizens of the state and bound by law. As such parliament needs to take all points of view into account and legislate in a neutral manner.

SD

Its not about what anyone thinks.. A life that exists should have the right to life.. Life should not be subjective to the whims of the demos... Human Life has an objective reality and nobody has the right to remove its value.

Nobody is talking about removing the value of human life.

SD

qrrgprgua · 16-06-2012 09:01PM

StudentDad wrote: »

Nobody is talking about removing the value of human life.

SD

Allowing somebody to elect to abort is doing exactly that.

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 09:04PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

Nobody is talking about removing the value of human life.

SD

Allowing somebody to elect to abort is doing exactly that.

That is your opinion. The woman who chooses to have an abortion is someone else, not you.

SD

PDN · 16-06-2012 09:05PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Allowing somebody to elect to abort is doing exactly that.

StudentDad's position appears to be that he wants the law to be changed to reflect his views on abortion, and he has the right to express that view. But if you choose to express your view on abortion then it's none of your business.

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 09:06PM

PDN wrote: »

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Allowing somebody to elect to abort is doing exactly that.

StudentDad's position appears to be that he wants the law to be changed to reflect his views on abortion, and he has the right to express that view. But if you choose to express your view on abortion then it's none of your business.

I haven't said anything of the sort.

SD

qrrgprgua · 16-06-2012 09:17PM

StudentDad wrote: »

I haven't said anything of the sort.

SD

Then what are you saying. I mean abortion is pretty clear cut... Either you respect the child or you don't. Unless you are one of those who say.. well I won't abort but I would allow others the choice. As Christians we can't take this view on this matter. The Right to life is fundamental.

qrrgprgua · 16-06-2012 09:19PM

StudentDad wrote: »

That is your opinion. The woman who chooses to have an abortion is someone else, not you.

SD

Like syria.. Lets all turn a blind eye... Its another country why should we care.. Let them kill each other.... does it make it right?

HamletOrHecuba · 16-06-2012 09:24PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Like syria.. Lets all turn a blind eye... Its another country why should we care.. Let them kill each other.... does it make it right?

If Ireland would do the decent about Syria, sending troops to fight the Americans and the Wahabis, the USA would turn around and simply expel all the illegal Irish there which would cause chaos- it was because of this that the US was able to turn Shannon into one of their bases.

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 09:27PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Then what are you saying. I mean abortion is pretty clear cut... Either you respect the child or you don't. Unless you are one of those who say.. well I won't abort but I would allow others the choice. As Christians we can't take this view on this matter. The Right to life is fundamental.

This isn't about respecting the child or not. All I'm saying is that whether you're a Christian or not is irrelevant. Your belief does not overide the belief of others.

If you are Christian and choose to live a Christian way of life, that's your choice.

SD

philologos · 16-06-2012 09:27PM

StudentDad wrote: »

I am not saying anything of the sort!

Whether you applaud sin or not is irrelevant. Whether another individual chooses to something which you disagree with but is legal is also irrelevant.

SD

I don't believe one should have the right to choose to kill another human being, and I'll make that clear.

There's no reason why that should be "private"?

neemish · 16-06-2012 09:33PM

"Again morality is a private matter"(SD)

No, morality is certainly NOT a private matter. The OED defines morality as
"principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour"
So if I privately decide that driving down the right hand side of the road in Ireland is fine, does that make it ok? No, because my decision impacts on everyone else using that road.

What if I privately decide that all people from Galway should be eliminated one by one. Does that make it ok?

We share a common morality. What that's based on is up to each community/society, but there are rules we have to hold in common if we are to survive living with each other.

And as a republic, we have decided that abortion shall not be allowed. That was the outcome of not one, but two public referenda.

qrrgprgua · 16-06-2012 09:33PM

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

If Ireland would do the decent about Syria, sending troops to fight the Americans and the Wahabis, the USA would turn around and simply expel all the illegal Irish there which would cause chaos- it was because of this that the US was able to turn Shannon into one of their bases.

Didn't want to de-rail the topic.. Just quoting the example.. Like Bosnia. The right thing is to protect innocent life. That the world stands by meeting around tables to discuss options is not helping. Ireland alone can't do much.. but that does not mean we should sit on the fence.

StudentDad · 16-06-2012 10:02PM

neemish wrote: »

"Again morality is a private matter"(SD)

No, morality is certainly NOT a private matter. The OED defines morality as
"principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour"
So if I privately decide that driving down the right hand side of the road in Ireland is fine, does that make it ok? No, because my decision impacts on everyone else using that road.

What if I privately decide that all people from Galway should be eliminated one by one. Does that make it ok?

We share a common morality. What that's based on is up to each community/society, but there are rules we have to hold in common if we are to survive living with each other.

And as a republic, we have decided that abortion shall not be allowed. That was the outcome of not one, but two public referenda.

What you have said there is nearly correct. There is a difference between what is determined to be right and wrong - by society as a whole - through its elected representatives in Parliament and private morality espoused by private organisations which are separate from the state and are unaccountable to the electorate and whose views have not been agreed on by society as a whole. This is what I mean by legislating for the citizens of the state and not the views of an unelected religious bloc.

SD

equivariant · 17-06-2012 12:58AM

StudentDad wrote: »

...whose views have not been agreed on by society as a whole....

SD

actually in the matter of abortion the views of the RCC have been democratically endorsed by the electorate

lmaopml · 17-06-2012 01:07AM

equivariant wrote: »

actually in the matter of abortion the views of the RCC have been democratically endorsed by the electorate

This is true...and not necessarily by all Roman Catholics either, because it's an issue that is not necessarily 'religious' in nature. That's too popular.

Many Atheists are very uncomfortable with abortion too. That's the truth.

StudentDad · 17-06-2012 01:20AM

equivariant wrote: »

actually in the matter of abortion the views of the RCC have been democratically endorsed by the electorate

Yes in 2002 we had a referendum which was defeated - a referendum which would have further restricted the rights of people in the republic http://struggle.ws/wsm/news/2002/refvictoryMARCH.html

A referendum that the RCC wanted passed but the electorate said no. Since the X case successive govts. have refused to legislate on the matter and we have the added problem of an obsolete constitution that no longer reflects the country that we are.

SD

philologos · 17-06-2012 08:50AM

StudentDad wrote: »

What you have said there is nearly correct. There is a difference between what is determined to be right and wrong - by society as a whole - through its elected representatives in Parliament and private morality espoused by private organisations which are separate from the state and are unaccountable to the electorate and whose views have not been agreed on by society as a whole. This is what I mean by legislating for the citizens of the state and not the views of an unelected religious bloc.

SD

I don't believe right and wrong is a matter of opinion, rather it is simply what is real and what is genuinely just. Therefore I can't condone injustice and I won't.

It's not a "private matter". You're just saying that you can say what you like about anything, but everyone else has to shut up if you don't agree with them.

That's rather childish isn't it?

StudentDad · 17-06-2012 10:31AM

philologos wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

What you have said there is nearly correct. There is a difference between what is determined to be right and wrong - by society as a whole - through its elected representatives in Parliament and private morality espoused by private organisations which are separate from the state and are unaccountable to the electorate and whose views have not been agreed on by society as a whole. This is what I mean by legislating for the citizens of the state and not the views of an unelected religious bloc.

SD

I don't believe right and wrong is a matter of opinion, rather it is simply what is real and what is genuinely just. Therefore I can't condone injustice and I won't.

It's not a "private matter". You're just saying that you can say what you like about anything, but everyone else has to shut up if you don't agree with them.

That's rather childish isn't it?

Childish? No. What religious groups fail to realise is that they are private organisations who do not have the right to impose their beliefs on private citizens of the State. However 'just' or 'right' the religious stance may be, the individual citizen has the right to live his life free from the interference of religious pressure groups.

Irish society is maturing slowly, to the point where slavish devotion to an unelected, unaccountable body such as the RCC and any other denomination for that matter is a thing of the past.

Living your life according to the tenets of a faith is one thing. Trying to impose those beliefs on private citizens of the State is something else entirely. The actions of another individual which have no bearing on your own life are none of your business.

SD

17-06-2012 10:53AM

equivariant wrote: »

actually in the matter of abortion the views of the RCC have been democratically endorsed by the electorate

neemish wrote: »

And as a republic, we have decided that abortion shall not be allowed. That was the outcome of not one, but two public referenda.

What? There have been two referendums on abortion (and a Supreme Court ruling), and the RCC have been on the losing side every time

PDN · 17-06-2012 10:58AM

StudentDad wrote: »

The actions of another individual which have no bearing on your own life are none of your business.

Yet you seem to think that it is your business whether other people should be permitted to have abortions or not.

This inconsistency has now been pointed out to you on a number of occasions.

Keep abortion out of Ireland

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