Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

EURATS · 01-06-2012 2:26pm

Bambi wrote: »

donegal_road wrote: »

Greece played hard-ball and got a write down of debt.. all we do in this country is comply, comply and comply some more... thats all I was saying in my first post

Oh we like to ****e on about being rebellious and all that crap, but the irish have always been a pretty timid, conservative lot

The number of protesters outside the Dail for the Eu/IMF bailout said it all. No sign of labour or FG members at that.

uck51js9zml2yt · 01-06-2012 2:30pm

am in the Dublin city count centre. most areas said yes.

Min · 01-06-2012 2:30pm

donegal_road wrote: »

Greece played hard-ball and got a write down of debt.. all we do in this country is comply, comply and comply some more... thats all I was saying in my first post

Thousands attending soup kitchens everyday.
Children having to be fed at schools because they are fainting from hunger.
Economy still shrinking at a rate of knots -6%
Riots.
Higher unemployment.
They export very little.

Greece played hard ball and still are in a worse position than Ireland, still the country that is most talked about unlike Ireland.

Greece has gotten feck all by playing hardball.

donegal_road · 01-06-2012 2:30pm

Bambi wrote: »

Oh we like to ****e on about being rebellious and all that crap, but the irish have always been a pretty timid, conservative lot

+1

Doc Ruby · 01-06-2012 2:31pm

Bambi wrote: »

Oh we like to ****e on about being rebellious and all that crap, but the irish have always been a pretty timid, conservative lot

Yeah, Northern Ireland over the last thirty years proved that alright. Oh and that whole british empire thing. What british empire thing you ask? Exactly, says I.

There are a lot of forces jockeying for ascendancy right now, but the fact is that almost everyone in the country still has an excellent standard of living. If the screws turn tight enough, you'll see a response alright.

Min · 01-06-2012 2:32pm

donegal_road wrote: »

when the ESM treaty is passed in the next couple of weeks, our first payment to the ESM will be in July, and will be for €254 million, and again in October for the same amount. We have to pay €11 billion towards the ESM now that we have signed up for it... this is in on-top of our bank debt... it is akin to a patient of life support being asked to donate blood

Money we get back, unless people support countries defaulting on debt...

Shenshen · 01-06-2012 2:38pm

Min wrote: »

Thousands attending soup kitchens everyday.
Children having to be fed at schools because they are fainting from hunger.
Economy still shrinking at a rate of knots -6%
Riots.
Higher unemployment.
They export very little.

Greece played hard ball and still are in a worse position than Ireland, still the country that is most talked about unlike Ireland.

Greece has gotten feck all by playing hardball.

Essentially, Greece played hard-ball cause they had feck-all to lose.
Ireland is still pretty well off overall, and playing hardball could land us in way, WAY deeper ****.

cherryghost · 01-06-2012 2:39pm

Can't figure out how yes has come out so high. Was at a down-syndrome charity event this morning with the parents and not one person voted yes from what I could gather.

donegal_road · 01-06-2012 2:40pm

Min wrote: »

Thousands attending soup kitchens everyday.
Children having to be fed at schools because they are fainting from hunger.
Economy still shrinking at a rate of knots -6%
Riots.
Higher unemployment.
They export very little.

Greece played hard ball and still are in a worse position than Ireland, still the country that is most talked about unlike Ireland.

Greece has gotten feck all by playing hardball.

Capuchin day centre in Dublin on the 8th of May had 560 people for dinner, over 200 for breakfast and 1200 for food parcels. This is the daily average...
Tom Dunne interviews Fr. Kevin Crowley

RTE reports that 1 in 5 school children goes to bed or school hungry

Greece debt write down story, Washington Post

EURATS · 01-06-2012 2:41pm

Shenshen wrote: »

Min wrote: »

Thousands attending soup kitchens everyday.
Children having to be fed at schools because they are fainting from hunger.
Economy still shrinking at a rate of knots -6%
Riots.
Higher unemployment.
They export very little.

Greece played hard ball and still are in a worse position than Ireland, still the country that is most talked about unlike Ireland.

Greece has gotten feck all by playing hardball.

Essentially, Greece played hard-ball cause they had feck-all to lose.
Ireland is still pretty well off overall, and playing hardball could land us in way, WAY deeper ****.

Well that is true. We don't have representatives with the will, strength of character or ability for playing hardball. That's for the big boys.

Joshua J · 01-06-2012 2:45pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/fiscal-treaty/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU6PbcTQIf0

Dyr · 01-06-2012 2:45pm

donegal_road wrote: »

Capuchin day centre in Dublin on the 8th of May had 560 people for dinner, over 200 for breakfast and 1200 for food parcels. This is the daily average...
Tom Dunne interviews Fr. Kevin Crowley

RTE reports that 1 in 5 school children goes to bed or school hungry

Greece debt write down story, Washington Post

yeah, but the farmers are still gettin paid

Doc Ruby · 01-06-2012 2:49pm

donegal_road wrote: »

Capuchin day centre in Dublin on the 8th of May had 560 people for dinner, over 200 for breakfast and 1200 for food parcels. This is the daily average...
Tom Dunne interviews Fr. Kevin Crowley

RTE reports that 1 in 5 school children goes to bed or school hungry

Greece debt write down story, Washington Post

Thirty euros will feed a grown adult very well for a week in this country. Ten kilo bags of spuds are around €2 these days. I can't even finish a full one before it begins to sprout, eating spuds round the clock in ever more imaginative ways. If kids really are going hungry, lack of money isn't the problem.

01-06-2012 2:50pm

DB10 wrote: »

People who voted yes I've talked to were afraid there would be no money in ATMs.

Says it all about this treaty.

The only argument I've heard from a no voter so far is that since I voted yes I may as well have pissed on the grave of every man, woman and child who died for this country.

Says it all about this country.

01-06-2012 2:52pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Thirty euros will feed a grown adult very well for a week in this country. Ten kilo bags of spuds are around €2 these days. I can't even finish a full one before it begins to sprout, eating spuds round the clock in ever more imaginative ways. If kids really are going hungry, lack of money isn't the problem.

Enough fruit and veg for a week can be bought for under a fiver between lidl and aldi as well. As you say, 30 quid will feed one very well with some effort.

donegal_road · 01-06-2012 2:55pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Thirty euros will feed a grown adult very well for a week in this country. Ten kilo bags of spuds are around €2 these days. I can't even finish a full one before it begins to sprout, eating spuds round the clock in ever more imaginative ways. If kids really are going hungry, lack of money isn't the problem.

I agree completely. My post was in response to a post that suggested that Greece were in a worse position than Ireland because children were arriving to school hungry.

2 years ago a wife of a developer arrived at the SVP looking for food aid driving a BMW. It was on a phone in on RTE1 (could even have been Liveline :O)

twinytwo · 01-06-2012 2:59pm

I cant wait to see the moaning that will take place once the super budgets come rolling in. People think we have it bad now.

The government had panned to have the defecit to 8.2ish?? percent by 2014.. we will now need to have it to 3%.

this is a target we can never reach, with a population of 5 million... we can never pay back the debt not in a million years.

So we have to give 11billion to the fund, the banks have said they will need another 5-10 billion, we will get fined for being over 3% the germans will then step in and destroy what is left of the country.... all this on top of the money we already owe, plus the government will, chances are borrow more money.

Before anyone starts harping on about how we brought it on ourselves. I have never had a loan, have never had a credit card and have never spent money i had not already earned and yet ill be stuck paying this ****e back till the day i die.

catthinkin · 01-06-2012 3:01pm

Buttonftw wrote: »

DB10 wrote: »

People who voted yes I've talked to were afraid there would be no money in ATMs.

Says it all about this treaty.

The only argument I've heard from a no voter so far is that since I voted yes I may as well have pissed on the grave of every man, woman and child who died for this country.

Says it all about this country.

Agree entirely the amount of people who think if a yes vote somehow makes you unpatriotic is unbelievable !! How they come to this conclusion based on any real facts is just mind boggling !

01-06-2012 3:08pm

donegal_road wrote: »

I agree completely. My post was in response to a post that suggested that Greece were in a worse position than Ireland because children were arriving to school hungry.

2 years ago a wife of a developer arrived at the SVP looking for food aid driving a BMW. It was on a phone in on RTE1 (could even have been Liveline :O)

My parents remember back 30 years ago on the housing estate they lived on people turning down food hampers from SVP and only accepting cash. There was an article in the Independent (I know!) a couple of years ago when the reporter went with some SVP people giving money out and when they mentioned leather sofas, big TVs etc. they were told that those things were a cultural status symbol or some such rubbish and not to question it. Unless one has a massive mortgage there is no way anyone should be going hungry and even in those cases they need to get their priorities straight.

K-9 · 01-06-2012 3:16pm

donegal_road wrote: »

Capuchin day centre in Dublin on the 8th of May had 560 people for dinner, over 200 for breakfast and 1200 for food parcels. This is the daily average...
Tom Dunne interviews Fr. Kevin Crowley

RTE reports that 1 in 5 school children goes to bed or school hungry

Greece debt write down story, Washington Post

There's no doubt things are worse than a few years ago but it isn't anywhere near Greek proportions. People may complain about the bailout but the threat of not having that option obviously does scare people and rightly so.

humanji · 01-06-2012 3:16pm

twinytwo wrote: »

I cant wait to see the moaning that will take place once the super budgets come rolling in. People think we have it bad now.

The government had panned to have the defecit to 8.2ish?? percent by 2014.. we will now need to have it to 3%.

this is a target we can never reach, with a population of 5 million... we can never pay back the debt not in a million years.

So we have to give 11billion to the fund, the banks have said they will need another 5-10 billion, we will get fined for being over 3% the germans will then step in and destroy what is left of the country.... all this on top of the money we already owe, plus the government will, chances are borrow more money.

Before anyone starts harping on about how we brought it on ourselves. I have never had a loan, have never had a credit card and have never spent money i had not already earned and yet ill be stuck paying this ****e back till the day i die.

You know we wouldn't have nice and tiny manageable budgets with a no vote, right?

donegal_road · 01-06-2012 3:20pm

K-9 wrote: »

There's no doubt things are worse than a few years ago but it isn't anywhere near Greek proportions. People may complain about the bailout but the threat of not having that option obviously does scare people and rightly so.

yes I agree, but will there be an ESM fund by the time Spain and Italy have been bailed out? The ESM bailout fund is 700 billion, 10 times what we have paid in bank debt (up to now). How will the ESM fund support what Spain and Italy require if their combined economy is up to 20 times that of ours?

Scofflaw · 01-06-2012 3:23pm

twinytwo wrote: »

I cant wait to see the moaning that will take place once the super budgets come rolling in. People think we have it bad now.

The government had panned to have the defecit to 8.2ish?? percent by 2014.. we will now need to have it to 3%.

No - we're already in an excessive deficit procedure, our target is already

%, and the target date is 2015. We originally claimed we could do it by 2014, but the Commission suggested we take at least another year.

twinytwo wrote: »

this is a target we can never reach, with a population of 5 million... we can never pay back the debt not in a million years.

Nor do we either have to or expect to. Instead, we expect growth (even a tiny bit) and inflation (even the usual amount) to reduce the ratio of debt to GDP without us having to pay back any of it.

twinytwo wrote: »

So we have to give 11billion to the fund,

Only if the entire fund is both used and defaulted on. And since the bigger countries would lose a couple of hundred billion each in those circumstances, I suspect a new plan will come into being.

twinytwo wrote: »

the banks have said they will need another 5-10 billion,

Might do, over the next several years, and they should be able to provide it themselves out of profits.

twinytwo wrote: »

we will get fined for being over 3%

You don't just "get fined" for being over the 3% limit - you need to not only be over it for a couple of years but to be making no attempt not to be.

twinytwo wrote: »

the germans will then step in and destroy what is left of the country....

What, by lending us more money?

twinytwo wrote: »

all this on top of the money we already owe, plus the government will, chances are borrow more money.

Before anyone starts harping on about how we brought it on ourselves. I have never had a loan, have never had a credit card and have never spent money i had not already earned and yet ill be stuck paying this ****e back till the day i die.

We brought it on ourselves by voting for governments who told us that they were turning Ireland into a "world class financial services hub" by letting the banks do whatever they liked, whose only answer to problems was to throw more money at them, who let the civil service benchmark itself like they'd won the Lotto, and who encouraged with every instrument and media outlet at their disposal one of the sharpest property bubbles in history.

The problems had nothing to do with your personal finances.

cordially,
Scofflaw

twinytwo · 01-06-2012 3:23pm

humanji wrote: »

You know we wouldn't have nice and tiny manageable budgets with a no vote, right?

yes, either way we were going to have a few hard years.... but we will now be tied to something that is impossible to achieve.

ilovesleep · 01-06-2012 3:24pm

I voted and voted no. For my own reasons. Know some more people who were also due to vote no. Know plenty more people who didn't bother to vote.

How arw the results turninf out. From reading the last page it seems as if the yes is running.

How can boards results be so wrong. And even in real life.

Wouldn't surprise me if it's rigged.

K-9 · 01-06-2012 3:30pm

donegal_road wrote: »

yes I agree, but will there be an ESM fund by the time Spain and Italy have been bailed out? The ESM bailout fund is 700 billion, 10 times what we have paid in bank debt (up to now). How will the ESM fund support what Spain and Italy require if their combined economy is up to 20 times that of ours?

As Scoflaw points out the €11 Billion is absolutely worst case scenario, the whole fund is used which is looking very possible and it is all defaulted on, unlikely atm. If we do get to that well, €11 Billion will be just another concern as the situation will have moved into different territory!

This €11 Billion and the 5% cut in debt seem to have been the 2 biggest misunderstandings on the No side.

Scofflaw · 01-06-2012 3:31pm

donegal_road wrote: »

yes I agree, but will there be an ESM fund by the time Spain and Italy have been bailed out? The ESM bailout fund is 700 billion, 10 times what we have paid in bank debt (up to now). How will the ESM fund support what Spain and Italy require if their combined economy is up to 20 times that of ours?

Because those countries aren't simply bigger copies of Ireland. There's a good analysis of Spain's probable costs here: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-17/markets/31352944_1_spanish-banks-ecb-spain

cordially,
Scofflaw

01-06-2012 3:31pm

I notice the more affluent areas of Dublin had very high Yes ratios.
I remember when interest rates were 15%. Staying as close to Europe as possible is the only way to save this country.

twinytwo · 01-06-2012 3:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I notice the more affluent areas of Dublin had very high Yes ratios.
I remember when interest rates were 15%. Staying as close to Europe as possible is the only way to save this country.

we shall see

gerryo777 · 01-06-2012 3:32pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Austerity? There hasn't even been a cut to social welfare since they've been in power yet.

Why should they cut social welfare, when the CPA insulates so many from the recession?
Do you think people who have worked, paid their contributions etc and now find themselves unemployed should be targeted?
Cue the comparisons with NI/UK rates.......

BTW, there's certainly no austerity if your a government advisor or close to a minister.

Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

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