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Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign

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    #242
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    brimal wrote: »
    Would anyone like to stay on topic and address this point?

    Nicky Larkin received torrents of abuse and intimidation off the 'peaceful' pro-Palestinian movement in Ireland.?

    ......."intimidation"? What intimidation?


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    #243
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    brimal wrote: »
    Nicky Larkin received torrents of abuse and intimidation off the 'peaceful' pro-Palestinian movement in Ireland.

    Care to link to examples of this abuse? This was asked by multiple posters before hand in regards to Dervish as well btw. Still no links to the abuse of Dervish or anyone else.......

    Seems clear to me, that some on here, just don't like any kind of protest.


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    #244
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    wes wrote: »
    I didn't see your edit.

    Also, from your own link:



    You are being dishonest once again. These maps are not any kind of Israeli offer, but rather an op-ed, about how to reconcile the difference between the 2 sides. Seriously, at this point, I can't believe a word your saying.

    Dishonesty isn't my stronger side here.
    You are slightly right, however you have missed the following quote from the article. And come on! what are we dealing with? a dose of a percent?
    Nothing that honest negotiations (that have never taken place) can't solve.

    This article pretty backs me up. You can do your own investigation, but the message is pretty clear.

    During the failed 2008 peace negotiations, the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, wanted a total swap of 6.3 percent, while Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, would agree to no more than 1.9 percent. These three maps explore and illustrate the middle ground between Mr. Olmert’s and Mr. Abbas’s proposals. Contrary to popular belief, most Israeli settlers are concentrated near the 1967 boundary.


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    #245
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    Nothing that honest negotiations (that have never taken place) can't solve.

    Yeah so stop pretending to talk of peace all the while continuing to steal more of their land. It's not a platform for honest talks.


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    #246
    brimal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭brimal


    wes, Nodin, I will certainly provide links soon. They were mostly social networking comments so will take a while to go through. Nicky Larkin himself has stated he received plenty of abuse too.

    What about my question - do you believe there is a problem within the group of going too far? Burning of Israel's flag in public - you ok with this?


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    #247
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wes wrote: »
    Care to link to examples of this abuse? This was asked by multiple posters before hand in regards to Dervish as well btw. Still no links to the abuse of Dervish or anyone else.......

    Seems clear to me, that some on here, just don't like any kind of protest.


    ....either that or they've no idea what "intimidation" and "aggression" really are. It's a bit odd they choose to concentrate on a few messages on facebook vs an occupying military.


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    #248
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    what is chrystal clear...........there are thousands of palestinian refugees............

    they should live in palestine........they do not......there are thousands of people from other nations living where they used to live............most of these religeous idiots, believe that, that land was given to them by god......

    well, by god !!!!! one day they will regret it......


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    #249
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Dishonesty isn't my stronger side here.

    You most certinaly were dishonest.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    You are slightly right,

    Try completely right.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    however you have missed the following quote from the article. And come on! what are we dealing with? a dose of a percent?

    I never disputed percentage, now did I? I asked for a map. You have yet to provide one. 6.3% can easily surround East Jerusalem and ensure that there is no continguity of territory between the West Bank and East Jerusalem. You are once again being less than honest, and you know full well I asked for a map. You have never provided one.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Nothing that honest negotiations (that have never taken place) can't solve.

    How can honest negotiations take place when one side is stealing the land there negotiating over? Israel has always been less than honest.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    This article pretty backs me up. You can do your own investigation, but the message is pretty clear.

    No actually it doesn't. The article is trying to bridge the gap between the 2 sides positions. Clearly the article writer doesn't see the offer in the same light you do. Otherwise the op-ed offering alternatives would simple not exist. Again, you claimed that the Palestinians passed on such a great deal, well you own op-ed that you linked too, doesn't seem to agree.


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    #250
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    brimal wrote: »
    wes, Nodin, I will certainly provide links soon. They were mostly social networking comments so will take a while to go through. Nicky Larkin himself has stated he received plenty of abuse too.

    What about my question - do you believe there is a problem within the group of going too far? Burning of Israel's flag in public - you ok with this?

    ...never been a flag burner meself, but its hardly reason to have a spasm.

    Again - "going too far" - the IPSC are a peaceful protest group.....they haven't done anything untoward to my knowledge.


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    #251
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    brimal wrote: »
    wes, Nodin, I will certainly provide links soon. They were mostly social networking comments so will take a while to go through. Nicky Larkin himself has stated he received plenty of abuse too.

    What about my question - do you believe there is a problem within the group of going too far? Burning of Israel's flag in public - you ok with this?

    People say hurtful things online and I think that everyone who insulted Dervish's musical ability and engaged in personal attacks here and elsewhere are doing little for the movement or for their own credibility.
    What is important is that their is a strong opposition to any trade with Zionist forces and their is a will internationally to help the Palestinians in some small way.


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    #252
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    brimal wrote: »
    What about my question - do you believe there is a problem within the group of going too far? Burning of Israel's flag in public - you ok with this?

    Oh, I will wait on your links, that show clearly show the IPSC people are doing this first. Seeing as we are 17 pages into the thread, and none of these links have been posted so far.

    Also, flag burning is hardly objectively that bad really. I am no fan of it myself, but considering that Israel is at this moment destroying people homes etc, I think some perspective is needed. Still flag burning falls under legal protest last time I checked.


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    #253
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    People say hurtful things online and I think that everyone who insulted Dervish's musical ability ........


    ...in fairness, some of us thought they were dire long before this came up.


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    #254
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wes wrote: »
    Oh, I will wait on your links, that show clearly show the IPSC people are doing this first. Seeing as we are 17 pages into the thread, and none of these links have been posted so far.

    Also, flag burning is hardly objectively that bad really. I am no fan of it myself, but considering that Israel is at this moment destroying people homes etc, I think some perspective is needed. Still flag burning falls under legal protest last time I checked.


    .......if nasty words on facebook are the level of it, jaysus help us all.


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    #255
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...in fairness, some of us thought they were dire long before this came up.

    Wouldn't be a big fan myself but the OP was demanding opinions on the (alleged attacks/negative comments/turn that ****e off) so thought I should give mine.


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    #256
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Nodin wrote: »
    .......if nasty words on facebook are the level of it, jaysus help us all.

    I am expecting that they threatened to kill puppies and eat the children of those who disagreed with them, considering how annoyed some people are.


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    #257
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    wes wrote: »

    Also, flag burning is hardly objectively that bad really. I am no fan of it myself, but considering that Israel is at this moment destroying people homes etc, I think some perspective is needed. Still flag burning falls under legal protest last time I checked.

    A flag by itself is a peace of cloth. It has no meaning.
    But if you think a little beyond the shall, you might realize that things that start with burning flags very quickly turn to violent actions, as it happens that the distance between burning flags to violence tends to be very short, by my experience.
    Add to that that flags may be very emotionally important to people.. Try to burn at the city center the Irish flag or a Koran or a new testament. See what happens to you.


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    #258
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    A flag by itself is a peace of cloth. It has no meaning.
    But if you think a little beyond the shall, you might realize that things that start with burning flags very quickly turn to violent actions, as it happens that the distance between burning flags to violence tends to be very short, by my experience.

    Ok, but thus far, the worst that has been claimed to have been done by the IPSC is that flag were burned, and no claims beyond that. So what may or may not happen is neither here nor there.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Add to that that flags may be very emotionally important to people.. Try to burn at the city center the Irish flag or a Koran or a new testament. See what happens to you.

    As I said, I don't agree with flag burning, but if that is the worst of it, then I think it fair to say that some are over reacting. BTW, I also condemned people who engaged in violent protest due to Koran burning in the past as well.


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    #259
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    wes wrote: »
    Ok, but thus far, the worst that has been claimed to have been done by the IPSC is that flag were burned, and no claims beyond that. So what may or may not happen is neither here nor there.



    As I said, I don't agree with flag burning, but if that is the worst of it, then I think it fair to say that some are over reacting. BTW, I also condemned people who engaged in violent protest due to Koran burning in the past as well.

    Well, that is good to hear. I just disagree that it's the worst thing that can happen. It should be stopped right there.


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    #260
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The Israeli wrote: »
    A flag by itself is a peace of cloth. It has no meaning.
    But if you think a little beyond the shall, you might realize that things that start with burning flags very quickly turn to violent actions, as it happens that the distance between burning flags to violence tends to be very short, by my experience.
    Add to that that flags may be very emotionally important to people.. Try to burn at the city center the Irish flag or a Koran or a new testament. See what happens to you.

    It's irrelevant. It's distasteful, certainly, but we thankfully don't live in a society which criminalises 'bad taste'. Freedom of speech.

    I ask yet again: What was posted, tweeted, shouted or broadcast towards Dervish which can legitimately be called "bullying", "intimidation", or "harassment"? Registering one's disdain for the decision to play in Israel, or telling the band they will lose fans, do not count. These are examples of PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE DISSENT.

    Anyone?


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    #261
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I ask yet again: What was posted, tweeted, shouted or broadcast towards Dervish which can legitimately be called "bullying", "intimidation", or "harassment"? Registering one's disdain for the decision to play in Israel, or telling the band they will lose fans, do not count. These are examples of PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE DISSENT.

    Anyone?

    I think that after 18 pages we aren't going to get an answer to that. Seems that their was no intimidation etc.


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    #262
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    If there WAS no intimidation, serious questions have to be asked of our minister for justice, automatically believing an unsubstantiated accusation, and attacking freedom of speech. His own accusation against the IPSC, if not backed up by anything, is appalling. Verging almost on defamation, in fact.


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    #263
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    If there WAS no intimidation, serious questions have to be asked of our minister for justice, automatically believing an unsubstantiated accusation, and attacking freedom of speech. His own accusation against the IPSC, if not backed up by anything, is appalling. Verging almost on defamation, in fact.

    I wonder why he'd take such a pro-Israeli position? :confused:


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    #264
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    I wonder why he'd take such a pro-Israeli position? :confused:

    To be honest, though I am pro Palestinian myself I see that as a secondary issue here.

    It's very disturbing if we're going down the route of censorship and 'taste policing'.
    Politicl dissent and comment is not 'bullying' and if our elected representatives are going to take that stance, in my view it's an affront to one of the core principles of freedom and democracy.


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    #265
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    If there WAS no intimidation, serious questions have to be asked of our minister for justice, automatically believing an unsubstantiated accusation, and attacking freedom of speech. His own accusation against the IPSC, if not backed up by anything, is appalling. Verging almost on defamation, in fact.


    ....actually, compared to mcdowell, hes the modicum of restraint. True, he is pro-Israel and lost the head, but as long as he doesn't try to legislate, its no odds really.


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    #266
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Nodin wrote: »
    as long as he doesn't try to legislate, its no odds really.

    He probably would if he could get any support in cabinet!

    I seem to recall a few years ago he had issues with the attempt to alleviate the criminal blockade of Gaza.


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    #267
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    He probably would if he could get any support in cabinet!

    I seem to recall a few years ago he had issues with the attempt to alleviate the criminal blockade of Gaza.
    A blockade which is NOT criminal, apart from hamas who says the blockade is criminal? Not the UN !


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    #268
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    The Israeli wrote: »
    A flag by itself is a peace of cloth. It has no meaning.
    But if you think a little beyond the shall, you might realize that things that start with burning flags very quickly turn to violent actions, as it happens that the distance between burning flags to violence tends to be very short, by my experience.

    Very true.

    Before you know it, you're involved in demolitioning the homes of innocent civilians, burning down olive groves and stopping ambulances with pregannat women from getting to hospitals.


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    #269
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Very true.

    Before you know it, you're involved in demolitioning the homes of innocent civilians, burning down olive groves and stopping ambulances with pregannat women from getting to hospitals.
    Not to mention suicide bombing buses, firing thousands of rockets at schools,hospitals etc,sending parcel bombs...


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    #270
    SimonLynch
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭SimonLynch


    So I can't post a like yet but +1

    Seriously though, if people have a problem with a state that they think is right wing/fascist/restrictive/repressive, etc., surely the more people from an artsy/intellectual background that visit, perform and write/read/blog/speak about it will vindicate the views of the anti-Zionists and can only be a good thing?



    marco_polo wrote: »
    Surely if you really didn't like Israel you would be strongly encouraging Dervish to go and play there?


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    #271
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    If there WAS no intimidation, serious questions have to be asked of our minister for justice, automatically believing an unsubstantiated accusation, and attacking freedom of speech. His own accusation against the IPSC, if not backed up by anything, is appalling. Verging almost on defamation, in fact.

    Write an angry letter so, but a little perspective should give you pause for thought.

    Don't think any party to the whole affair comes out of it well tbh.


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