Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign

czx

Nodin wrote: »

...so you support the settlements then. Good man, honesty is always the best policy. That "I don't support them but..." act was wearing thin, lets face it.

"terror"? It's armed resistance to colonisation. Seeing as the peaceful route of the UN and sanctions have been blocked, its unfortunately the only avenue open to them. Bit much to be complaining about the end result of your states Foreign policy, tbh.

Condoning suicide attacks is not very 21st century. Disgusting hypocrisy from someone who claims to care about human suffering, regardless of sect.

Nodin

O look, it's the dash to avoid talking about whats happening today.

They should really make this an olympic event.

The Israeli wrote: »

When you say that, you probably also mean to the pre 1948 pogroms, and the 48 independence war.
Also, you probably mean to the preaches at mosques that preach for Jews killing, and establishing Palestine from the Jordan river to the sea.

......and in 67 BCE, on Thursday, Feb 12th, about 3.30pm, a forefather of a Palestinian robbed three figs from the forefather of an Israeli settler. This justifies everything that Israel will ever do, especially colonies, and means that no good whatsoever can ever come from a Palestinian, as they're fig robbin bastards.

Nodin

czx wrote: »

Condoning suicide attacks is not very 21st century. Disgusting hypocrisy from someone who claims to care about human suffering, regardless of sect.

The rather bizarre fact of war is that one justifies a set of evils to prevent a greater.

What would be your alternative - what would you suggest that the Palestinians do?

The Israeli

Nodin wrote: »

...so you support the settlements then. Good man, honesty is always the best policy. That "I don't support them but..." act was wearing thin, lets face it.

"terror"? It's armed resistance to colonisation. Seeing as the peaceful route of the UN and sanctions have been blocked, its unfortunately the only avenue open to them. Bit much to be complaining about the end result of your states Foreign policy, tbh.

Nodin, you are a clown. I have said millions of times that I don't support settling beyond the green line. What are you joking about?

However, I did say earlier the retreating from the settlements without an agreement that would be acceptable on all the military and political Palestinians forces and wouldn't arise violence is unacceptable. Now, try to fetch that agreement.

Armed resistance is a very pretty expression for bombing buses and etc for political reasons. Yes political too, because people that explode themselves or stub soldiers at check points, or fire rockets from house yards of civilians "care a lot" for the civilians.

golden lane

The Israeli wrote: »

When you say that, you probably also mean to the pre 1948 pogroms, and the 48 independence war.
Also, you probably mean to the preaches at mosques that preach for Jews killing, and establishing Palestine from the Jordan river to the sea.

great idea........

czx

Nodin wrote: »

The rather bizarre fact of war is that one justifies a set of evils to prevent a greater.

What would be your alternative - what would you suggest that the Palestinians do?

Stop self-destructing. Lay down weapons. Act reasonably. Garner genuine support.

golden lane

reasonable......are we talking about israel here.......

The Israeli

golden lane wrote: »

great idea........

Join the IPSC club. I believe that many of its members share this great idea too.

golden lane

The Israeli wrote: »

Join the IPSC club. I believe that many of its members share this great idea too.

never been in a club in my life......i am not in favour of hamas or any simular organisation.......

i just don't think israel has the right to lands know as palestine.....

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Nodin, you are a clown. I have said millions of times that I don't support settling beyond the green line. What are you joking about.

Yet there you are defending the Israeli position. Its like Benji when he says 'Israel wants peace'. There's dozens of caveats attached.

The Israeli wrote: »

However, I did say earlier the retreating from the settlements without an agreement that would be acceptable on all the military and political Palestinians forces and wouldn't arise violence is unacceptable. Now, try to fetch that agreement..

Abbas, as has been pointed out to you before, has essentially dropped his bags and grabbed his ankles.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers

This and much like it is his reward.....
http://peacenow.org.il/eng/netanyahu_trick

The Israeli wrote: »

Armed resistance is a very pretty expression for bombing buses and etc for political reasons.

...yes, because there is such a thing as a nice war.

Zebra3

The Israeli wrote: »

Nodin, you are a clown. I have said millions of times that I don't support settling beyond the green line. What are you joking about?

However, I did say earlier the retreating from the settlements without an agreement that would be acceptable on all the military and political Palestinians forces and wouldn't arise violence is unacceptable. Now, try to fetch that agreement.

Armed resistance is a very pretty expression for bombing buses and etc for political reasons. Yes political too, because people that explode themselves or stub soldiers at check points, or fire rockets from house yards of civilians "care a lot" for the civilians.

I wonder who the Palestinians got those ideas about bombings from. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Nodin

czx wrote: »

Stop self-destructing. Lay down weapons. Act reasonably. Garner genuine support.

You mean like in the West Bank and the areas under Fatah control? Yes, well they've done that. They've even gone a step further and been in full co-operation with Israeli security working against Hamas and other organisations.

What's next?

Nodin

Zebra3 wrote: »

I wonder who the Palestinians got those ideas about bombings from. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

....don't be drawn.


Really is a shame this isn't an olympic event.

The Israeli

Zebra3 wrote: »

I wonder who the Palestinians got those ideas about bombings from. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

You and wes always bring up this thing.

1) I think it was a terrorist act.
2) They warned the Brits that they were going to bomb the Place. Read it. It's in your link. Do the Palestinians warn Israel before specific attacks and missiles fire? I don't think so.
3) If to continue your way of thinking - maybe they have taken the motivation from Ireland, back in the ole days.
4) It happened ages ago not against them. What's the relevance?!

Zebra3

The Israeli wrote: »

You and wes always bring up this thing.

1) I think it was a terrorist act.
2) They warned the Brits that they were going to bomb the Place. Read it. It's in your link. Do the Palestinians warn Israel before specific attacks and missiles fire? I don't think so.
3) If to continue your way of thinking - maybe they have taken the motivation from Ireland, back in the ole days.
4) It happened ages ago not against them. What's the relevance?!

The relevance is that this act of mass murder was carried out by a terrorist group that later became part of the Israeli (try not laugh) "Defence" Forces.

Just like the destruction of over four hundred Palestinian towns and villages by zionist terror groups. And since the establishment of the stste of Israel those terror tactics and campaign of hate against non-jews have continued.

Israel can occupy the West Bank pending a proper agreement but it has no right to colonise it, and carry out its war of terror on Gaza. So long as that happens, the Palestinians will stick up for themselves. Just like jews and Poles did against the nazis.

brimal

The aggressive nature of the pro-Palestinian movement in Ireland needs to be addressed.

Another recent example would be the personal abuse and intimidation thrown towards film-maker Nicky Larkin after his recent articles in the Indo. He had gone from pro-Palestinian to pro-Israel stance after spending several weeks in both areas.

Some of the harassment he received was shocking.


Then you also have one of the movement's mouthpieces, who I won't name, burning Israel flags in public, assaulting a Guard, banned from half of Dublin, etc. - not a good look.

The Israeli

Zebra3 wrote: »

The relevance is that this act of mass murder was carried out by a terrorist group that later became part of the Israeli (try not laugh) "Defence" Forces.

Just like the destruction of over four hundred Palestinian towns and villages by zionist terror groups. And since the establishment of the stste of Israel those terror tactics and campaign of hate against non-jews have continued.

Israel can occupy the West Bank pending a proper agreement but it has no right to colonise it, and carry out its war of terror on Gaza. So long as that happens, the Palestinians will stick up for themselves. Just like jews and Poles did against the nazis.

The same way as the Irish independence fighters later became parts of the Irish Police, army and Government forces? ah?

These organizations were unarmed and merged into IDF, and they have always been a minority, while the major group before the forming of IDF was Hahagana and mainly on it, IDF was based.
It's not relevant to this discussion too.

I agree that Israel shouldn't build beyond the green line at places that shouldn't remain under the Israeli hands after retreating and territory swaps.
Funny, I think that the extremists that fight Israel don't want a two states solution, or any solution but exterminating Israel. That's why I don't think that terror attacks on the Israeli population is going hand in hand with a permanent solution.
Also, I don't think that as I have mentioned earlier that firing from home yards, storing weapons under hospitals in mosques, exploding at check points through which Palestinians have to pass every day, and on their way to Israeli hospitals, at times (and trying to kill soldiers there will just make the checks slower) is going hand in hand with "stick up for themselves".

You are constantly trying to justify their violence. A very not contributing stand.

golden lane

The Israeli wrote: »

The same way as the Irish independence fighters later became parts of the Irish Police, army and Government forces? ah?

These organizations were unarmed and merged into IDF, and they have always been a minority, while the major group before the forming of IDF was Hahagana and mainly on it, IDF was based.
It's not relevant to this discussion too.

I agree that Israel shouldn't build beyond the green line in places that shouldn't remain in Israel hands after retreating and territory swaps.
Funny, I think that the extremists that fight Israel don't want a two states solution, or any solution but exterminating Israel. That's why I don't think that terror attacks on the Israeli population is going hand in hand with a permanent solution.
Also, I don't think that as I have mentioned earlier that firing from home yards, storing weapons under hospitals in mosques, exploding at check points through which Palestinians have to pass every day, and on their way to Israeli hospitals, at times (and trying to kill soldiers there will just make the checks slower) is going hand in hand with "stick up for themselves".

You are constantly trying to justify their violence. A very not contributing stand.

well, i am not trying to justify any violance.........trying to avoid it in fact....

now can you give the palestinians their country back.......please..

Phill Ewinn

The Israeli wrote: »

Also, I don't think that as I have mentioned earlier that firing from home yards, storing weapons under hospitals in mosques, exploding at check points through which Palestinians have to pass every day, and on their way to Israeli hospitals, at times (and trying to kill soldiers there will just make the checks slower)

Wanted: palestinian military depot, may swap for basic human rights.

The Israeli

golden lane wrote: »

well, i am not trying to justify any violance.........trying to avoid it in fact....

now can you give the palestinians their country back.......please..

Right after we agree on a lasting peace, we would narrow up our borders.

_____

Here is a different act of solidarity:
In case you happen to be in Dublin.
http://tiny.cc/u1g2dw

http://www.foleysbar.com/

golden lane

The Israeli wrote: »

Right after we agree on a lasting peace, we would narrow up our borders.

_____

Here is a different act of solidarity:
In case you happen to be in Dublin.
http://tiny.cc/u1g2dw

http://www.foleysbar.com/[/QUOTE]

so, only some of it..........is that fair, you are well aware that is not acceptable ..............so that is an excuse to keep all that you have......

stop treating the world like we are all idiots.....you will only alienate the people that are on your side (AND FEW THEY ARE NOW).....

your state is based on a sandhill.........one day there will be a big storm.....

The Israeli

golden lane wrote: »

so, only some of it..........is that fair, you are well aware that is not acceptable ..............so that is an excuse to keep all that you have......

stop treating the world like we are all idiots.....you will only alienate the people that are on your side (AND FEW THEY ARE NOW).....

your state is based on a sandhill.........one day there will be a big storm.....

Yes, evacuating about half a million people isn't practical.
Even Abu Mazen agrees to the territory swapping layout. Of course, not to all of it, but I think we could agree on it, if there were serious negotiations and seize of terror.
Accordingly to the plan, the Palestinians would get a fair deal.


About the downhill - you wish.
The European Union is going downhill. Be concerned about that a little bit more.

I would also like to include this quote taken from -
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=5958687

Since 1967, Israel has repeatedly conceded, “land for peace.” Following Egyptian President Sadat’s historic 1977 visit to Jerusalem and the Camp David Peace Accords, Israel withdrew from the vast Sinai Peninsula and has been at peace with Egypt ever since.

In 1995, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel but neither the Palestinians nor 21 other Arab states have done so. In 1993, Israel signed the Oslo Accords ceding administrative control of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority(formerly the PLO). The PA never fulfilled its promise to end propaganda attacks and drop the Palestinian National Charter’s call for Israel’s destruction.

In 2000, Prime Minister Barak offered Yasser Arafat full sovereignty over 97% of the West Bank, a corridor to Gaza, and a capitol in the Arab section of Jerusalem. Arafat said NO. In 2008, PA President Abbas nixed virtually the same offer from Prime Minister Olmert. In 2005, Prime Minister Sharon unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. Taken over by terrorist Hamas, they turned dismantled Jewish communities into launching sites for suicide bombers and 8,000+ rockets into Israel proper. In 2010, Prime Minister Netanyahu renewed offers of unconditional negotiations leading to a Palestinian State, but Palestinians refused, demanding more unilateral Israeli concessions, including a total freeze of all Israeli construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

hatrickpatrick

Guys I'm sorry to be a pain in the ass about this but I'll bring it up one more time.
Can anyone provide ONE SHRED of evidence for "intimidation" or "bullying" beyond simply expressing disappointment and telling the band they'll lose fans over this?

I ask again, are we now vilifying mere political dissent and comment? Freedom of speech?

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Any chance we could keep this thread on topic? No offense to anyone but there are a million threads in which we could debate the actual Israel / Palestine conflict itself, this one is about the IPSC group and in particular its media campaign against Dervish.

I'm just fascinated to hear a response to my earlier question - are people advocating censorship? Are people suggesting that dissent and protest shouldn't be allowed? How are "negative comments" and "threatening a loss of fanbase" in any way crimes? Politicians face the same gauntlet every day and they don't call for anyone to be censored or suggest that there's anything wrong with free speech?

Again, how is telling a politician that he or she will lose votes for pursuing a particular course of action any worse than telling a band they will lose fans for pursuing a particular course of action?

The people in this thread attacking the IPSC are implying an incredibly dangerous suggestion, that free speech and dissent should be somehow criminalized or regulated.

Where does that end? Would I get censored tomorrow for telling Gilmore he'll lose votes for being dishonest, or by saying that I won't vote for FG in the next election if they do X, Y, or Z?

Zebra3

The Israeli wrote: »

I would also like to include this quote taken from -
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=5958687

Since 1967, Israel has repeatedly conceded, “land for peace.” Following Egyptian President Sadat’s historic 1977 visit to Jerusalem and the Camp David Peace Accords, Israel withdrew from the vast Sinai Peninsula and has been at peace with Egypt ever since.

In 1995, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel but neither the Palestinians nor 21 other Arab states have done so. In 1993, Israel signed the Oslo Accords ceding administrative control of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority(formerly the PLO). The PA never fulfilled its promise to end propaganda attacks and drop the Palestinian National Charter’s call for Israel’s destruction.

In 2000, Prime Minister Barak offered Yasser Arafat full sovereignty over 97% of the West Bank, a corridor to Gaza, and a capitol in the Arab section of Jerusalem. Arafat said NO. In 2008, PA President Abbas nixed virtually the same offer from Prime Minister Olmert. In 2005, Prime Minister Sharon unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. Taken over by terrorist Hamas, they turned dismantled Jewish communities into launching sites for suicide bombers and 8,000+ rockets into Israel proper. In 2010, Prime Minister Netanyahu renewed offers of unconditional negotiations leading to a Palestinian State, but Palestinians refused, demanding more unilateral Israeli concessions, including a total freeze of all Israeli construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Israel has not repeatedly conceded land for peace.

It has illegally annexed the Golan Heights. It has illegally annexed East Jerusalem. Israel has no interest in peace. It has brought nothing but war to the Palestinian people. Since 1967, 700,000 Palestinians have been kidnapped by occupying Israeli military forces in the West Bank as they are deemed "a threat to security". This does not happen to zionists engaging in land theft which happens with the support of the Israeli state which breaks international law.

And how many times has Israel attacked Lebanon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre Peace loving Israel indeed.... :rolleyes:

The Palestinians have every right to demand that Israel stops illegal jewish only colonies on their land which is against international law.

The Israeli

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel has not repeatedly conceded land for peace.

It has illegally annexed the Golan Heights. It has illegally annexed East Jerusalem. Israel has no interest in peace. It has brought nothing but war to the Palestinian people. Since 1967, 700,000 Palestinians have been kidnapped by occupying Israeli military forces in the West Bank as they are deemed "a threat to security". This does not happen to zionists engaging in land theft which happens with the support of the Israeli state which breaks international law.

And how many times has Israel attacked Lebanon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre Peace loving Israel indeed.... :rolleyes:

The Palestinians have every right to demand that Israel stops illegal jewish only colonies on their land which is against international law.

zebra, you are like a stable power of an unwilling monologue. I confront you on one point, you throw it away and go to the next..
"Maybe the next point will be luckier". Well, just don't forget to markup what didn't work for you, because they are a part of the Israeli points.

I'll answer to this later.

paddyandy

I would be really very surprised to find more than a half dozen Irish people who truly understand the Middle East it's religions and Cultures .Then there are Tribal and regional nuances .Understanding peoples around the world can not be learned from books and certainly not the Leftie Press that we have here cathartic Stuff that sells to our unhappy elements . Any Book or film about Ireland by outsiders is ALWAYS very flawed so reverse the psychology and the ME is much more complicated .The problems are esoteric and arcane .

fasttalkerchat

The Israeli wrote: »

exploding at check points through which Palestinians have to pass every day, and on their way to Israeli hospitals, at times (and trying to kill soldiers there will just make the checks slower) is going hand in hand with "stick up for themselves".

I would sooner ask the question "why are foreign soldiers in my country". I don't expect anyone who has grown up in an occupied country to see violence against soldiers in their country as being wrong.

The Israeli

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I would sooner ask the question "why are foreign soldiers in my country". I don't expect anyone who has grown up in an occupied country to see violence against soldiers in their country as being wrong.

1) what country? When has the Palestinian existed and what were its borders? (never). You will get different answers from different organizations about what should be its borders. Accordingly to Hamas and Islamic jihad there is no place for Israel. Some not sane people in the West Bank feel the same. They are also willing to kill for it. I strongly doubt that there are any terrorists that have killed for the 67's borders. Just listen to their agenda and brain washing before terror acts and after failing terror acts. There are many videos on youtube.

Just think about a logic of a terrorist:
Killing yourself in an act of killing others is an act of a total defiance and rules breaking.
It means: feck you, I spit on what you represent and your proposals, I spit on your demands, I prefer to die than to live if I take you with me, and I hope that it makes you bleed and suffer.
Accepting the 67's borders solution means compromising. A person that is willing to compromise doesn't want to die and deliberately kill civilians (as opposed to an acceptable fighting as in army vs. army).
A compromising person needs the other side to trust him, as he needs to be trusted by the other side. That is the opposite of terrorism.
If you think the terrorists are fighting for the 67's borders in anyway than you are totally wrong. That's why we need an army till the other side will be willing to compromise.

2) Preventing terror, dahhh

Nodin

brimal wrote: »

The aggressive nature of the pro-Palestinian movement in Ireland needs to be addressed.

.........

Why? Did they take over your bedroom? Has some looney with a glint in his eye informed you that hes there on a mission from God to take back the promised land?

I think its the Israeli aggression in the West Bank that needs looking at, to be blunt.

The Israeli wrote:

Since 1967, Israel has repeatedly conceded, “land for peace.”
.........

Not this crock again.....the settler population is now in the hundreds of thousands. I'd suggest that if Israel genuinely thinks its trading anything for peace, its doing it wrong and should perhaps consult the instructions.

]
including a total freeze of all Israeli construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

....did you read that before you posted it?
'Occupied People Request End To Illegal Colony-Build Shocker'. If somebody is intent on 'conceding land for peace', why would they be building colonies during peace talks? Why would they continue colony construction at all?

Nodin

paddyandy wrote: »

............. .The problems are esoteric and arcane .

No paddy, they aren't nessecarily that way at all.

Now if you want to argue that arriving and taking somebodys land in the middle east is different from arriving and taking somebodys land in Europe, feel free........