South County GC Closed

link_2007 · 10-05-2012 3:20pm

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

Would it be conceivable that the company which closed yesterday (SCGC), are going to walk away from whatever debts they have, and the same or similar people involved will set up a new company, rearrange a new lease with the landowners, buy machinery etc from the old company and offer a reduced membership fee to previous members, and start afresh next month?

Its not the first or last time i'd have seen this sort of practise in this country.

i have no basis for the above and its only a thought i had.

Considering the majority of members paid their annual sub in the last 6-8 weeks, I can't see many being prepared to pay further fees regardless of the discount offered.

Paulusmaximus · 10-05-2012 3:24pm

link_2007 wrote: »

Considering the majority of members paid their annual sub in the last 6-8 weeks, I can't see many being prepared to pay further fees regardless of the discount offered.

True, however, if the option was there to pay say €200 and then have a shareholding of the new company, which would have no debt and you play the same course, continue to be GUI affiliated etc, it would probably be a better solution then paying entrance fees and subs to another club.

bustercherry · 10-05-2012 3:27pm

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

Would it be conceivable that the company which closed yesterday (SCGC), are going to walk away from whatever debts they have, and the same or similar people involved will set up a new company, rearrange a new lease with the landowners, buy machinery etc from the old company and offer a reduced membership fee to previous members, and start afresh next month?

Its not the first or last time i'd have seen this sort of practise in this country.

i have no basis for the above and its only a thought i had.

Fuk em if they do. I know what will happen the the similar c***s if they approach me about giving a reduced membership fee.

What's the deal with the 2's. I've had a wee run of them this year and never collected

bustercherry · 10-05-2012 3:30pm

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

True, however, if the option was there to pay say €200 and then have a shareholding of the new company, which would have no debt and you play the same course, continue to be GUI affiliated etc, it would probably be a better solution then paying entrance fees and subs to another club.

With the same clowns in charge? Not a chance should any of these gits be allowed anywhere near any new club that could come out of this.

vikingdub · 10-05-2012 3:51pm

one ill cat wrote: »

That meeting the other night was amongst shareholders as they are the ones who elect the board & ultimately have a say in the running of the club. The shareholder AGM was due soon. I believe that's why there was a meeting called amongst them for discussion before the AGM itself.

Very few shareholders were aware that that meeting was taking place.

stinkypoo · 10-05-2012 3:54pm

there was a meeting of over 45 memebers on tuesday who were unhappy with the golf club and the way it was being run. if there is anything to rise from the ashes a meeting of members asap to put together a proposal to the land owners needs to happen. if they wont deal with this group then they will know that the landowners want to run the facility themselves. it would then be interesting to see who else becomes involved in that venture. people can then decide if they want to be part of that new club if it becomes a reality. its time for action.

vikingdub · 10-05-2012 3:56pm

stinkypoo wrote: »

there was a meeting of over 45 memebers on tuesday who were unhappy with the golf club and the way it was being run. if there is anything to rise from the ashes a meeting of members asap to put together a proposal to the land owners needs to happen. if they wont deal with this group then they will know that the landowners want to run the facility themselves. it would then be interesting to see who else becomes involved in that venture. people can then decide if they want to be part of that new club if it becomes a reality. its time for action.

I can see this one ending up in the Courts.

bustercherry · 10-05-2012 4:02pm

I can see a few lads ending up with a box in the mouth too :pac:

Anyone know if we can still use the practice facilities without paying 10 euro? I've a few range tokens in the car; might head up and get rid of them.

dangerous golfer · 10-05-2012 4:05pm

As members, we should look to meet with the landlords and find out DIRECTLY what their intentions are for their land and see if anything can be done by us to save the club.

bailey99 · 10-05-2012 4:07pm

shamco wrote: »

Now that I'm back on earth!!. You seem to missing the point entirely that the Kavanaghs are not on the breadline. They are getting their land back with multimillion euro golf course on it. The country been in state it is in is not due to tenants by the way. Quite the opposite in fact

I think it's you whose missing the point. The Kavanaghs didn't wind up the company or have anything to do with this mess. People suggesting they managed some sly underhanded method of getting a multi-million pound golf course for free are incredible!!!

Firstly, how much will/do they need to spend maintaining this multi million pound facilty? Secondly, where will they get income. They wont get any of the 600 odd members subscriptions cause the company has taken all that funding and scarperred. They are open the place as pay as you play for €10 which is very cheap in all fairness.

They can use this funding (their only source of funding I might add) to try and somewhat maintain the course. And as a result of offering golf for €10 they are absued as being sly and underhanded on the forum. That's brilliant in all fairness.

Instead of anger being directed at the board of directors who are refusing to comment, and being brought to account through the correct medium, ye cast aspertions on the owners of the property/land who I might add are left without a tenant on their land and thus without income. And furthermore, are subjected to wrath and sharp tongues of upto 600members who they are trying to facilitate through no fault of their own whatsoever.

Where the Kavanaghs on the board of directors can you tell me??? I'm not even from Dublin, and have sympathy for all members who paid the annual sub and got shafted, but in fairness, questionning the honour and rights of the owners in taking back their property is ridiculous to say the least.

Would you prefer if they closed the door and tolf you all to **** off????

Gambino · 10-05-2012 4:11pm

As I understand it, the club ran out of money because a substantial number of members refused to pay their subscriptions. In that case they didn't have much option other than declaring insolvency. If the management walked away from it, then I can see why the landlords took action. Whatever chance the course has of surviving, it would have none if it was allowed to fall into disrepair. As it stands the course is open and people are playing. That is something to build on. Anyone got a better plan?

GreeBo · 10-05-2012 4:18pm

Gambino wrote: »

As I understand it,

Source please?

VirtualNemesis · 10-05-2012 4:18pm

link_2007 wrote: »

Woke up to a text:

The board regret to announce that the golf club will close immediately. A formal statement will be issued to shareholders and creditors in due course. See website for further details.

I have checked the website but it seems to be the same as normal.

ah no way?! Thats sorry to hear. Never got the chance to play it but heard it was a fine track.

Hopefully it will be opened again soon.

VN

bustercherry · 10-05-2012 4:23pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Source please?

Well said.

As I see it you are talking Bull****. If this was the case; why was it not made more transparent that the club had difficulties and why were the clubs management reassuring members finances were good?

Also members not renewing their subscriptions is completely different than members refusing to pay :rolleyes:

Gambino · 10-05-2012 4:24pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Source please?

The manager and various members - some seem to be quite proud of it. Others are proud of how they screwed discounts out of the club last year. They must be very happy today.

Redzah · 10-05-2012 4:29pm

Gambino wrote: »

The manager and various members - some seem to be quite proud of it. Others are proud of how they screwed discounts out of the club last year. They must be very happy today.

Hi Gambino, screwed discounts on what exactly?

A bit short sighted from them to be proud of not losing out on their cash as they now have no golf course.

Did they have a reason to refuse paying the subscriptions or was it merely due to the fact that they were more astute or had more info than other members regarding the financial position the club was in?

GreeBo · 10-05-2012 4:30pm

Gambino wrote: »

The manager and various members - some seem to be quite proud of it. Others are proud of how they screwed discounts out of the club last year. They must be very happy today.

Sorry but thats not good enough.
Original post deleted.

Gambino · 10-05-2012 4:31pm

bustercherry wrote: »

Well said.

As I see it you are talking Bull****. If this was the case; why was it not made more transparent that the club had difficulties and why were the clubs management reassuring members finances were good?

Also members not renewing their subscriptions is completely different than members refusing to pay :rolleyes:

In my opinion the club has been upfront with members about the situation. The Chairman gave a verbal update to a meeting not long ago and recently sent around a note about how the manager was concentrating on a membership drive, because of concerns over numbers.

The difference between not renewing and refusing may be clear to you, but the effect is the same - no income.

vikingdub · 10-05-2012 4:31pm

bustercherry wrote: »

Well said.

As I see it you are talking Bull****. If this was the case; why was it not made more transparent that the club had difficulties and why were the clubs management reassuring members finances were good?

Also members not renewing their subscriptions is completely different than members refusing to pay :rolleyes:

I think this is probably the source

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-left-out-of-pocket-as-golf-club-closes-down-3103853.html

"Club captain Michael Moore said 120 people had not renewed their membership for this year, including 55 shareholders."

dangerous golfer · 10-05-2012 4:33pm

Hi Gambino,

Which board member are you?

Kind Regards,
Dangerous Golfer

bustercherry · 10-05-2012 4:36pm

dangerous golfer wrote: »

Hi Gambino,

Which board member are you?

Kind Regards,
Dangerous Golfer

Also can you pop you address on here too, so I can call round about some money you owe me

PadBol · 10-05-2012 4:37pm

Hi Folks
Very sorry to hear that - nearly joined it last October.
However this could turn out to be a good thing for members, provided they act fast.
I am looking to get as large a group of members as possible together to seek to buy out the club from the liquidator / receiver. If it really has 600 members then it is almost certainly viable going forward, it is just the debt burden that is killing it.
If you are a member could you please email me at paddy@blg.ie. I will be in contact with the club and then revert as soon as possible to everyone with a rescue plan if one is possible
Thanks and regards
Paddy Bolger (Insolvency practitioner)

Gambino · 10-05-2012 4:37pm

Redzah wrote: »

Hi Gambino, screwed discounts on what exactly?

A bit short sighted from them to be proud of not losing out on their cash as they now have no golf course.

Did they have a reason to refuse paying the subscriptions or was it merely due to the fact that they were more astute or had more info than other members regarding the financial position the club was in?

Yes, short sighted is a good way of putting it. Some got money off. Others demanded that some or all of their sub be offset against a loan that was made by members during a previous crisis.

Its a shame; a lot of hard work went into getting the club onto at least a sustainable basis, only for it to be holed from within by some of its own members. I'm sure some cases were genuine but others were just being too clever for their own good.

bustercherry · 10-05-2012 4:38pm

Gambino wrote: »

In my opinion the club has been upfront with members about the situation. The Chairman gave a verbal update to a meeting not long ago and recently sent around a note about how the manager was concentrating on a membership drive, because of concerns over numbers.

The difference between not renewing and refusing may be clear to you, but the effect is the same - no income.

So you believe you did enough to notify the member's, who you were collecting subs off collecting last week?

Gambino · 10-05-2012 4:46pm

My sub is down the drain too - as is my share and loan. I presume they went flat out to collect subs and attract members for as long as possible but at a certain point - I guess Tuesday - they decided it wasn't going to work. I was introducing prospective members as recently as two weeks ago and I had no inkling that it was this bad. I'm not happy about that but what should they have done - just give up sooner?

You seem displeased with my posts. Might this be because you are one of those who didn't pay and are reluctant to take your share of the blame?

Redzah · 10-05-2012 4:55pm

Gambino wrote: »

Yes, short sighted is a good way of putting it. Some got money off. Others demanded that some or all of their sub be offset against a loan that was made by members during a previous crisis.

Its a shame; a lot of hard work went into getting the club onto at least a sustainable basis, only for it to be holed from within by some of its own members. I'm sure some cases were genuine but others were just being too clever for their own good.

Fair enough, well if the members had to fork out for a loan during a previous crisis which had not yet been repaid then they would have been aware that the club was not in good shape financially.

Would the audited accounts and up to date cash flows have been available to members who joined recently? If so then it could be argued that these new members went in with their eyes closed.

If you look at the following factors;

Trade defecit
Previous loans given to club by members which were still unpaid
Just Treats deal offering 56% off membership

and if you couple these with a look at the cash balances and liquid assets on the audited accounts then you would have a good idea of the financial position of the company's position.

Anybody know whether the 2011 accounts were prepared on a going concern or break up basis? Was it a clean audit opinion? Did it include an emphasis of matter paragraph regarding potential going concern issues?

Depending on the answers to the above, it could be argued that some existing and new members went in with their eyes closed. Its a harsh lesson to learn but i can understand why the club would not say 'we're fcuked so don't pay us your sub' in their predicament.

carman2011 · 10-05-2012 5:06pm

the 2011 financial accounts were filed in April 2012.
they are available for anyones viewing from the CRO website, CRO.ie for a charge of €2.50
I have been examining them over the last 2 days.

the company lost 62,666 in 2011.
it has an overall deficit of 1,031,159
it owes 1,121,942 to its members (loans etc given by members)
(so its in the black ignoring these)

accruals which are probably mostly rental arrears are 327,691
(if the landlords decided to call this in, the company could have had issues continuing)

whats likely, is that with c120 members leaving, a lot of whom were on a higher rate than the people who joined cheaply under schemes, the projections for the year had to be adjusted downwards, and the thing became unviable.
BUT, per the 2011 accounts, it didnt look as bad as it now seems, revenue etc were only owed small amounts, and most of the debt was due to members which i presume these members were not all chasing hard in the short term.

Interesting, the company was OWED 397,542 from a South County Properties Ltd !

All this info is freely (well for 2.50) available on the CRO website.
It also lists the active directors of the company for those interested in that.

bustercherry · 10-05-2012 5:11pm

carman2011 wrote: »

the 2011 financial accounts were filed in April 2012.
they are available for anyones viewing from the CRO website, CRO.ie for a charge of €2.50
I have been examining them over the last 2 days.

the company lost 65k in 2011.
it has an overall deficit of just over 1m
it owes 1.1 to its members (loans etc given by members)
(so its in the black ignoring these)

accruals which are probably mostly rental arrears are c350k
(if the landlords decided to call this in, the company could have had issues continuing)

whats likely, is that with c120 members leaving, a lot of whom were on a higher rate than the people who joined cheaply under schemes, the projections for the year had to be adjusted downwards, and the thing became unviable.
BUT, per the 2011 accounts, it didnt look as bad as it now seems, revenue etc were only owed small amounts, and most of the debt was due to members which i presume these members were not all chasing hard in the short term.

Interesting, the company was OWED c400k from a South County Properties Ltd !

All this info is freely (well for 2.50) available on the CRO website.
It also lists the active directors of the company for those interested in that.

Hmmmmm very interesting when you look at the board of that company.

ForeRight · 10-05-2012 5:35pm

For people who seem to be going down the road of thinking that something under handed has gone on in all this from the Kavanaghs there are a few facts you should know.

Pat Kavanagh had 9 shares in SCGC and his brother had 20!!!

They had given a 40% reduction to SCGC last year on the lease as times were very tough.

Also I was speaking to Raymie this morning up there and I asked him about the accounts in the pro shop. He told me absolutely everything is wiped clean and all the passwords were changed on the computers to log into the systems on tuesday night. WTF!!!

Hed had given credit to a huge amount of people for clothing, clubs etc etc and also lads had accounts that were in a good bit of credit but its all dead now he said.
I didnt want to ask but id imagine he is down an awful lot of his own money on this issue. The reason it is all gone is because it was all done through the SCGC mens club and that doesnt exist now either obviously.

Up there this morning and I was going to go out and play as the course was open but I refused to give pat kavanagh 10 euro to go out and play the course.

Pat Kavanagh on more than one occasion this morning said it would be easier for him to just fench the whole place and have sheep graze on it but he maintains that he is starting a new club called south county golf club instead of the old "the" south county GC. It is pay and play for everyone....previous members fully paid matters nothing as its nothing to do with him. He didnt take our subs and I understand where he is coming from but if he wants the place to survive he is going to have to come up with some plan to keep existing members on board.

From what I saw and witnessed in the club this morning I am very worried though. kavanagh was talking a good game but I really dont think things are going to have any sort of happy ending for all involved.
He will be at the end of his tether in a few days with this as his phone didnt stop ringing for the hour I was there and I am worried he will just throw his hat at the whole thing

Spankyspanks · 10-05-2012 5:35pm

I have to say that the above analysis of the club has no grounding in financial logic.

If you look at the fundamentals - literally 6k cash on hand, debtors increasing - it all points at liquidity problems which was the reason for the closure of the club ultimately. This isnt the first business to go under due to a strong asset base with ultimately no liquidity, this is pretty standard and there is nothing from a financial standpoint that could be termed "interesting" in those accounts.

If you read the accounts from an analytic perspective, the belief put forwards by the directors that the club could sustain itself into the medium/long term given the knowledge the board had of members witholding subs etc is frankly ludicrous.

Given the fact that the club was in such trouble I find it baffling that no fundraising efforts were made outside of the ordinary discount membership option. With a base of 600 members, simple maths would dictate that an organized event with this personnel base could generate enough cashflow to provide for a short term carry forward of the club.

South County GC Closed

Comments