Leaf price drop - game changer?

Tragedy · 23-04-2012 01:27AM

If the Vauxhall Ampera was the same price as the Leaf over here, I could see a lot more people buying that. It had signifcant teething problems and as stands is ludicrously expensive, but at a decent price the range extender offers far more advantages than a pure EV Leaf.

vibe666 · 24-04-2012 11:21PM

did anyone see the recent article on advances in battery technology?

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/11/batteries-energy-kung.html

it's just one of a bunch of technologies i've read recently that could make a huge difference in the electric car market.

10x the capacity and 10x the charge rate from lithium ion batteries could be huge if it's possible to turn the theory into a marketable product.

lomb · 05-05-2012 10:12PM

Why dont they put a small petrol engine with a generator in to charge the battery on the fly? Surely all it would need is a small 500 cc engine that could range extend the battery and even if it was flat could charge it in an hour or so. I cant see that costing much and is undoubtedly the future-look at the Ampera.
Cars like the leaf are dinosaurs as they take away mobility through range
anxiety. I cant see resale values in 5 years being much and savings on diesel will be wiped out by the resale and higher initial price.
Its a nice lifestyle car though and a good choice if looking for something different.

shedweller · 05-05-2012 10:34PM

I've mentioned the Ampera here before but it's like i said nothing.:rolleyes:

Matt Simis · 06-05-2012 02:38AM

lomb wrote: »

Why dont they put a small petrol engine with a generator in to charge the battery on the fly? Surely all it would need is a small 500 cc engine that could range extend the battery and even if it was flat could charge it in an hour or so. I cant see that costing much and is undoubtedly the future-look at the Ampera.
Cars like the leaf are dinosaurs as they take away mobility through range
anxiety. I cant see resale values in 5 years being much and savings on diesel will be wiped out by the resale and higher initial price.
Its a nice lifestyle car though and a good choice if looking for something different.

Well yeah, thats what the Volt/Ampera (and Diesel Electric trains!) is as mentioned, a EV with a Genny on the back. These are known as Series Hybrids.

IMO these (in cars) are a step backwards, not forwards and have only short term interest to market (ie <5years). They "offer" the complexity of both ICE and EV combined, the pollution of ICE and the added weight of EV, its the worst of both worlds. The space the ICE takes up robs the vehicle of battery storage. They kinda seem to have a purpose now, but future battery improvements along with cheaper and better AC motors render these pointless. If you had the option of a pure-EV with 300mile range and well under 1hr hyper charging (to full), you definitely would not want to be lugging around a combustion engine and fuel etc.

pburns · 06-05-2012 04:49PM

I see the motoring writer in the Indo gives the range of a Leaf he had on test a right lashing in todays Indo. I can just see the EV defenders foaming at the mouth at the hap-hazard forward planning that almost left him stranded but for me that's the whole point - unless you lead a predictable, anal type of lifestyle EVs don't currently cut it.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well yeah, thats what the Volt/Ampera (and Diesel Electric trains!) is as mentioned, a EV with a Genny on the back. These are known as Series Hybrids.

IMO these (in cars) are a step backwards, not forwards and have only short term interest to market (ie <5years). They "offer" the complexity of both ICE and EV combined, the pollution of ICE and the added weight of EV, its the worst of both worlds. The space the ICE takes up robs the vehicle of battery storage. They kinda seem to have a purpose now, but future battery improvements along with cheaper and better AC motors render these pointless. If you had the option of a pure-EV with 300mile range and well under 1hr hyper charging (to full), you definitely would not want to be lugging around a combustion engine and fuel etc.

I'm mentioned the Volt/Ampera as a better compromise also but maybe you have a point. If EVs had the real-world range you're talking about they may be a more realistic option.

Matt Simis · 06-05-2012 08:23PM

pburns wrote: »

I'm mentioned the Volt/Ampera as a better compromise also but maybe you have a point. If EVs had the real-world range you're talking about they may be a more realistic option.

What made me change my mind about the EV plus ICE Generator/Extender was stuff like this bit on range parity, which sets some objectives and direction for EVs in Japan and Europe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_battery#Range_parity

Range parity

Driving range parity means than the electric vehicle has the same range than an average all-combustion vehicle (500 kilometres or 310 miles), with 1+ kWh/Kg batteries.[25]

Japanese and European Union officials are in talks to jointly develop advanced rechargeable batteries for electric cars to help nations reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. Developing a battery that can power an electric vehicle 500 kilometres (310 mi) on a single charging is feasible, said Japanese battery maker GS Yuasa Corp. Sharp Corp and GS Yuasa are among Japanese solar-power cell and battery makers that may benefit from cooperation.[26]
The lithium-ion battery in the AC Propulsion tzero provides 400 to 500 km (200 to 300 mi) of range per charge (single charge range).[27] The list price of this vehicle when it was released in 2003 was $220,000.[28]

ZAP-X is claimed to have a 350-mile (560 km) single charge range.[citation needed]

Driving in a Daihatsu Mira equipped with 74 kWh lithium ion batteries, the Japan EV Club has achieved a world record for an electric car: 1,003 kilometres (623 mi) without recharging.

Zonda Bus, in Jiangsu, China offers the Zonda Bus New Energy with a 500-kilometre (310 mi) only-electric range

06-05-2012 08:33PM

pburns wrote: »

I see the motoring writer in the Indo gives the range of a Leaf he had on test a right lashing in todays Indo............

I had a look at that article, it seems he didn't do too much wrong, but the range of his fully charged Leaf seem to reduce faster than it should....

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/motoring/far-from-electric-day-out-3101449.html

"Travelling on the M50, the distance was 49km each way so we reckoned we had plenty of capacity from the 169km showing after leaving the car on an overnight charge. Oh, silly simple folk. Before we had gone three kilometres the Leaf was showing a range of 149km and after 10km when we had started on the motorway it was around 90km."

" Again there was a full charge showing 169km but by the time I had arrived in Phoenix Park four kilometres away to walk the dog it had sunk to 149km. It was a cold day and we needed lights, demister and, for a few minutes, the air-conditioning on.

By the time dog and I arrived home, the Leaf was proclaiming a range of 112km. Eight equalled 57 in the mad world of the Leaf."

Seems epically sh1t from that review.

beazee · 09-05-2012 09:56AM

RoverJames wrote: »

Seems epically sh1t from that review.

Another review, different car but using the same technology and different conclusion:

An overnight 12 hour charge didn’t help and in the morning, while the battery gauge showed the Fluence was full to the brim with excited electrons, the on-board computer was pessimistically predicting I’d be hitching a lift after 88kms. Who to trust: car or car company?

Against most people’s advice I opted for the car company. On the M50 at motorway speeds everything was fine and I purposefully didn’t lighten my right foot at any stage of the 53km trip. By the time I arrived, the battery gauge showed half a charge left and the onboard computer grudgingly admitted I still had 55kms in the bank. By the time I got back to the office and then home, I had completed a monumental 101.8kms and the well-beaten on-board computer was showing I still could drive another 19kms. Human - 1: onboard computer – 0.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2012/0509/1224315794882.html

And as for long commutes - there are LEAF owners sharing their experiences on Nissan Leaf site on Facebook

September1 · 09-05-2012 11:21AM

RoverJames wrote: »

Seems epically sh1t from that review.

Yes, yes, yes. Guess-o-meter is epic crap, followed by crap of battery charge meter. I think having a SOC display would be third most wanted modification to current LEAFs. It constantly changes range basing on recent energy consumption, but yet fails to take into account that sometimes "Normal" mode is more economical than "Eco" mode. It feeds this crap into Navigation system which would happy to tell you that you will not reach destination, which does no good to range anxiety.

Matt Simis · 09-05-2012 12:38PM

beazee wrote: »

Another review, different car but using the same technology and different conclusion:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2012/0509/1224315794882.html

And as for long commutes - there are LEAF owners sharing their experiences on Nissan Leaf site on Facebook

Im not sure I buy that review and its conclusions.
But when ignoring the car and just pushing on regardless, is the driver not pushing the batteries to levels of discharge that they dont want to be at? For the purposes of a review, a reviewer can of course drive till it dies, but in the realworld this will lead to a very expensive problem in a couple of years.

beazee · 09-05-2012 12:58PM

Matt Simis wrote: »

Im not sure I buy that review and its conclusions.
But when ignoring the car and just pushing on regardless, is the driver not pushing the batteries to levels of discharge that they dont want to be at?

Rest assured he is not pushing the batteries over their limits. It is the meter not giving exact readings. Had the same story with company Mondeo I borrowed once. Was showing 120km to stop but managed to squeeze 230km out of the same tank on my way to Galway. Guess-o-meter indications vary based on different drivers and driving condition, should get more accurate driven over longer periods.

September1 · 09-05-2012 01:42PM

beazee wrote: »

. Guess-o-meter indications vary based on different drivers and driving condition, should get more accurate driven over longer periods.

My LEAF has almost 20k and I assure you - they are as crap as on first day. Guess-o-meter is total failure by Nissan.

MMAGirl · 17-11-2012 06:48AM

We really want a Nissan leaf but the problem is that the resale value will be crap if then battery doesn't last.Imagine in 4 years time you want to sell the car but in the meantime people's experiences prove that the battery will only last 75km max after 4 years.
Add to that the fact that you really don't now what way the battery has been treated if buying second hand.

Too scary a prospect to commit to. I just don't think there is going to be second hand market for these cars.

September1 · 17-11-2012 04:42PM

MMAGirl wrote: »

We really want a Nissan leaf but the problem is that the resale value will be crap if then battery doesn't last.Imagine in 4 years time you want to sell the car but in the meantime people's experiences prove that the battery will only last 75km max after 4 years.

I'm not sure where your data comes from, but so far we know that battery could last at least 100kkm basing on data from other drivers.

MMAGirl wrote: »

Add to that the fact that you really don't now what way the battery has been treated if buying second hand.

LEAF displays estimated capacity left, so you know your starting point.

MMAGirl wrote: »

Too scary a prospect to commit to. I just don't think there is going to be second hand market for these cars.

There could be, remember that battery does not die just looses capacity hence even degraded vehicle would have utility value.

MMAGirl · 17-11-2012 04:53PM

September1 wrote: »

I'm not sure where your data comes from, but so far we know that battery could last at least 100kkm basing on data from other drivers.

But nobody knows how long the battery on a second hand Leaf will last, or what condition it is in.

September1 wrote: »

LEAF displays estimated capacity left, so you know your starting point.

I've read in many reviews that this display is not accurate.

September1 wrote: »

There could be, remember that battery does not die just looses capacity hence even degraded vehicle would have utility value.

[/QUOTE]

So who is going to buy my 4 year old Leaf and at what price when I decide to change cars?

I dont think there will be a second hand market at all for these cars, therefore making it impossible for a leaf owner to offload their car to trade up to a newer Leaf or a new improved EV. So once you buy one you are stuck with it. Or at least wont get much for it.

Leonard Hofstadter · 17-11-2012 05:06PM

If they can get wireless charging up and running (charge as you drive), that would be a major boost in favour of the electric car. However, until such time as that happens it is nothing more than a vanity project.

September1 · 17-11-2012 05:19PM

MMAGirl wrote: »

But nobody knows how long the battery on a second hand Leaf will last, or what condition it is in.

It is not an engine, it is quite simple chemical device. It ages due to abuse and mistreatment - hence once you receive your second hand car you will be able to decide on future battery live. Unlike a washer that suddenly fails and stops engine from working.

MMAGirl wrote: »

I've read in many reviews that this display is not accurate.

There are some people who claim it may be inaccurate, but it is still better as regular cars have no wear meter.

MMAGirl wrote: »

So who is going to buy my 4 year old Leaf and at what price when I decide to change cars?

Mad_Lad will do it, he mentioned it couple times. You would save money on advertising.

On serious note, as I said - there people which could do with a bit less range and would certainly pay decent price for car that is so cheap to run.

MMAGirl wrote: »

I dont think there will be a second hand market at all for these cars, therefore making it impossible for a leaf owner to offload their car to trade up to a newer Leaf or a new improved EV. So once you buy one you are stuck with it. Or at least wont get much for it.

LEAF are not here long enough, but i-Mievs in UK do not seem to be significantly cheaper than ICE equivalents. However this is still unknown...

Drummerboy08 · 17-11-2012 05:25PM

We've seen decent second hand residual values on the Leaf recently which did surprise us, however there seems to be a demand for these second hand at the minute.

Sesshoumaru · 18-11-2012 12:31AM

When you get your Leaf serviced you get a printed report on your battery's health. I imagine keeping a record of the batteries capacity would be useful when selling. We have over 37,000 kilometers on our Leaf now and have had no range drop. It's funny reading how some people would consider a battery pack with a drop in capacity as some sort of liability.

MMAGirl · 18-11-2012 01:23PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

When you get your Leaf serviced you get a printed report on your battery's health. I imagine keeping a record of the batteries capacity would be useful when selling. We have over 37,000 kilometers on our Leaf now and have had no range drop. It's funny reading how some people would consider a battery pack with a drop in capacity as some sort of liability.

Its kind of important that if you buy a car that does your 100km (as an example) round trip commute that a year later its only able to do 90km dont you think?

Guy:Incognito · 18-11-2012 01:29PM

Considering the way people in this country spend a lot on 2nd hand cars without any regard to looking for a service history, I don't see how worrying about how the battery in a leaf was treated can be any worse. At least its something that's sealed in the car that the user doesn't have input too, unlike bothersome things that people like to ignore and hope they never have to look at/have someone look at like an engine.

18-11-2012 03:02PM

September1 wrote: »

Mad_Lad will do it, he mentioned it couple times. You would save money on advertising.

HAHA someone called ?

Well the more I thought about that the more I realised that the Leaf can't currently make the trip of 85 miles round trip in winter, comfortably. And I don't want to do all my commute at 80KPH that would be annoying.

If I get made permanent at work and they install a charger then that will be a game changer. They have one in one of their other buildings.

The other thing is Zoe will be out in March or April with 44kw charging capability but only 20KW chargers exist currently which is still much faster than the 3.5 kw charging capability of the Leaf from these same chargers and the severe lack of 50 KW DC chargers makes this another win for Zoe.

Zoe will have a more efficient heating system but also less acceleration but it's a smaller car.

Zoe will have it's battery made by LGChem and not NEC and it's a better battery.

Leaf improvements coming in 2013 too but the exact nature is unknown yet. Possibly cheaper due to being made in the U.K. Better heater. Battery will be the same.

Rental on the Fluence battery according to Renault u.K is 165 Euro's PM over 3 years, Zoe's prices are not known yet but advertise from 70 Euro PM

So say 165 PM is 1980 Euro's per year + leccy another 600-650

I'd save 240 on car tax over Prius. 400 on service =2210 Euro's total

V cost of petrol only for Prius = about 3250 per year. or Saved over petrol a cost of about 1000 Euro's

The Prius is got close to 85K miles now and next year will have over 100K miles and due an expensive service costing a few hundred.

Prius is paid for V spend 16,500 on new car I might get 5-6 K for trade in So that's 10K to spend

I sure wouldn't be doing it to save money, still 10K is not bad to spend on a new car and I'd save 1,000 a year over the Prius that I'd eventually have to replace anyway. Which I wouldn't save over a petrol or diesel car.

Obviously the numbers make better sense for anyone getting 50 mpg or less.

Buying a 2nd hand leaf is a good idea if I could get one for a week and test it out. That means all saved over petrol would go to pay off the car much faster.

Sesshoumaru · 18-11-2012 03:04PM

MMAGirl wrote: »

Its kind of important that if you buy a car that does your 100km (as an example) round trip commute that a year later its only able to do 90km dont you think?

You were talking about resale value, you implied a degraded battery was a liability.

On a separate point I know around 30 Leaf owners in Ireland and no one has reported any degradation yet in battery capacity. While the batteries continue to hold up well in Ireland's temperate climate, the charging networks coverage continues to increase, month by month.

http://goo.gl/maps/mC5uC

I live in the Dublin area, so just relating to my personal experience. Most people would find the coverage quite adequate at the moment. The fast charging network is okay around Dublin now and being expanded. A quick top up doesn't take that long, this is what I've timed:

0% -> 50% 12 minutes
0% -> 80% 30 minutes
05 -> 100% 45 minutes

It's possible you might find a slow charger near your place of work or that your work place will install one for employees or you might buy the charging cable that plugs in to an ordinary 3 pin socket. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the range when electricity is generally available where civilisation exists

Example 1:
My wife and I usually go to Savoy cinema now as it's cheaper than Vue in Liffey Valley, they give a special park rate discount for Q-Park behind it and Q-Park has charging points that are free.

Example 2:
When we were shopping in Tesco today we used the charging point in Tesco to top up while shopping.

If you did some research you'd know the battery in the Leaf is a Traction pack made up of 48 batteries. As it's a traction pack the individual cells won't necessarily wear at the same rate and each of the cells can be replaced individually. You seem to be jumping to wild conclusions based on something? Let me know where you're getting your information from and I'll do my best to respond.

Bigus · 18-11-2012 04:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

HAHA someone called ?

Zoe will have a more efficient heating system but also less acceleration but it's a smaller car.

The Prius is got close to 85K miles now and next year will have over 100K miles and due an expensive service costing a few hundred.

I sure wouldn't be doing it to save money, still 10K is not bad to spend on a new car and I'd save 1,000 a year over the Prius that I'd eventually have to replace anyway. Which I wouldn't save over a petrol or diesel car.

Obviously the numbers make better sense for anyone getting 50 mpg or less.

What major servIce does a Prius need at 100k , the only thing I can think of is transmission fluid ?

I drove an Irish Prius with 232 k miles and it was perfect.

Also prius prices have firmed up over the last three years

So why not keep driving it with depreciation down to almost nil now ? And apart from tyres little or no maintenance cost !

Drive it like a leaf and get your mpg up to 60

MMAGirl · 18-11-2012 04:12PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You were talking about resale value, you implied a degraded battery was a liability.

On a separate point I know around 30 Leaf owners in Ireland and no one has reported any degradation yet in battery capacity. While the batteries continue to hold up well in Ireland's temperate climate, the charging networks coverage continues to increase, month by month.

http://goo.gl/maps/mC5uC

I live in the Dublin area, so just relating to my personal experience. Most people would find the coverage quite adequate at the moment. The fast charging network is okay around Dublin now and being expanded. A quick top up doesn't take that long, this is what I've timed:

0% -> 50% 12 minutes
0% -> 80% 30 minutes
05 -> 100% 45 minutes

It's possible you might find a slow charger near your place of work or that your work place will install one for employees or you might buy the charging cable that plugs in to an ordinary 3 pin socket. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the range when electricity is generally available where civilisation exists

Example 1:
My wife and I usually go to Savoy cinema now as it's cheaper than Vue in Liffey Valley, they give a special park rate discount for Q-Park behind it and Q-Park has charging points that are free.

Example 2:
When we were shopping in Tesco today we used the charging point in Tesco to top up while shopping.

If you did some research you'd know the battery in the Leaf is a Traction pack made up of 48 batteries. As it's a traction pack the individual cells won't necessarily wear at the same rate and each of the cells can be replaced individually. You seem to be jumping to wild conclusions based on something? Let me know where you're getting your information from and I'll do my best to respond.

I think i'll wait til we see what resale value is going to be like.
In my book shorter range over time is going to hugely effect resale value. It seriously reduces your pool of potential buyers.

18-11-2012 04:21PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

If you did some research you'd know the battery in the Leaf is a Traction pack made up of 48 batteries. As it's a traction pack the individual cells won't necessarily wear at the same rate and each of the cells can be replaced individually. You seem to be jumping to wild conclusions based on something? Let me know where you're getting your information from and I'll do my best to respond.

True the individual modules can be replaced, but they won't be replaced with new ones because you simply can't mix old cells with new ones. They will replace them with modules of similar capacity and internal resistance. And make sure you have 75% capacity or greater. Because Nissan say a spent battery has 75% remaining or less.

With the Renault Zoe they will simply replace the entire pack and recondition it and give you a pack of 75% + remaining capacity.

18-11-2012 04:26PM

Bigus wrote: »

What major servIce does a Prius need at 100k , the only thing I can think of is transmission fluid ?

I drove an Irish Prius with 232 k miles and it was perfect.

Also prius prices have firmed up over the last three years

So why not keep driving it with depreciation down to almost nil now ? And apart from tyres little or no maintenance cost !

Drive it like a leaf and get your mpg up to 60

Not major really just very expensive from what I hear, because of the amount of expensive coolant and the time involved in bleeding, and the transmission oil needs to be changed again, I believe this is time consuming on the prius.

I must get confirmation on this.

I really don't like the Idea of keeping it past the warranty on the hybrid.

18-11-2012 04:33PM

[QUOTE=Sesshoumaru;81808670

On a separate point I know around 30 Leaf owners in Ireland and no one has reported any degradation yet in battery capacity. While the batteries continue to hold up well in Ireland's temperate climate, the charging networks coverage continues to increase, month by month. [/QUOTE]

I think there is one reported Leaf in the U.S with 50,000 miles and no noticeable loss in capacity. It's somewhere on the mynissanleaf forum.

I live in the Dublin area, so just relating to my personal experience. Most people would find the coverage quite adequate at the moment. The fast charging network is okay around Dublin now and being expanded. A quick top up doesn't take that long, this is what I've timed:
.[/QUOTE]

The fast charging network around Dublin may be good but it's extremely poor over most of the Island.

To be honest I can understand why with Renault changing to a far cheaper A/C on board charger and not knowing what other future cars will use fast ac or dc would mean I would think they are waiting to see what happens.

There are still far more 20kw chargers than 50 kw d.c which would make Zoe far more useful for me.

Bigus · 18-11-2012 04:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Not major really just very expensive from what I hear, because of the amount of expensive coolant and the time involved in bleeding, and the transmission oil needs to be changed again, I believe this is time consuming on the prius.

I must get confirmation on this.

I really don't like the Idea of keeping it past the warranty on the hybrid.

Gen 2 prius just doesn't give hybrid trouble on a worldwide basis ,so Ireland should see even less. You're into at least 600,000 km to see issues,
separately trans oil change from Toyota about 100 euro and in our climate I wouldn't bother changing the coolant, but that's me. Maybe your thinking about spark plug change.

Back on topic , I think Renault leasing batteries is a joke and wil absolutely kill resale in Ireland and they should think again.
Who's going to enforce collection of leasing charges when car is sold on ?

Leaf price drop - game changer?

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