Leaf price drop - game changer?

pburns · 17-04-2012 07:55PM

I've never seen anyone so happy that the price of a car they bought has dropped by 5 grand. That'd buy a fair bit of diesel, eh Sesshoumaru?;) Whatever floats your boat.

Maybe for 25k it is worth a punt for some people's needs or as a second car - good luck to them. I hope they don't let the pursuit of efficiency become an obsession.

kippy · 17-04-2012 08:18PM

MYOB wrote: »

Seeing as the environmental damage from building any car is massive, let alone that EVs are worse than ICE cars for that; having one as a second car when you could have coped with one is about as un-green as humanly possible...

Thats not the point I was making......
I wasn't advocating getting a second car.
I was saying that for a two car family (like ourselves and many others) at the moment replacing one of the two cars with an EV would be a goer. I could see how it might work in my own circumstances however would require a bit more forward planning.

Sesshoumaru · 17-04-2012 09:08PM

challengemaster wrote: »

I think it's fair to say you're extremely biased ...

You're also not comparing like with like here. You've equated that because you can work your EV charging into your schedule, that it takes less time to charge than for a normal ICE car to fill a tank, which is simply untrue. It means you've adapted your schedule, or you've got a schedule that you can fit the EV's limitations into.

A direct comparison is where an EV and ICE start "filling" at the same time. Obviously ICE will win. While your way may be a more realistic daily means of comparison, as people adapt, it can't be extrapolated to the wider population, because you can't predict an entire populations use on your experience and schedule.

You're also ignoring the fact that ICE cars aren't really limited as to when to refill. If I pass 3 petrol stations on my daily trip, I can pop in to any of them along the route, and it's not as big a deal as you'd seem to make out to be, I've never gotten stressed out because I've had to wait 2 minutes to use a pump, nor have I wasted hours of my life on forecourts waiting for cars to move. I can essentially fill when and where I need to along my route, it's suited to me. That's convenience. You have to charge at home, or a designated charging point wherever you find it. That's not convenience, it's a limitation. It's obvious to see which of those is actually putting you out of your way.

Also what happens if something that doesn't fit into your schedule comes up? EV out of juice, you can't fill it in a few mins that'll last 400+ miles. You don't have time to stop every now and again along the way...

But it's not quite there yet. Talking about potential is well and good, but it's not what's there now, and people can't run their cars on the potential there'll be a charge point put wherever.

You're also ignoring the fact that since cars have started to be used, there now exists a network of petrol stations all across the country, ones that actually exist at this moment in time, and are capable of providing fuel. That network also won't vanish overnight, so the planning regulations for more petrol stations is a moot point.

My daily schedule and I'm sure mine is similar to most people

1. Leave home
2. Come home later in day

So you tell me how I've added an extra step in there?

It's clear I've removed what is a weekly diversion for most to the petrol station. How long it takes to charge the car while I'm at home asleep is completely irrelevant and invisible to me. I come home and plug-in, that's how long it takes to charge up as far as I'm concerned.

I also clearly stated it was faster 90% of the time. I did not say all the time. I've posted about it numerous times, but clearly on occasion I have needed more than 24kw/h of juice in one day and that has necessitated a trip to FCP for anything from 5 to 25 minutes usually. However that is getting rarer and rarer as more on street charging becomes available. An example trip:

Celbridge to Bray with kids, have fun in Bray. Travel in to Dublin city centre and park just off Merrion Square and plug into on street charging. Go bring family for bite to eat, visit NHM, remotely active climate control as leaving museum and arrive back to charged and toasty warm car. That is low cost and convenient motoring.

Speaking of networks, we have one for electricity as well. Civilisation as we know it wouldn't exist without it and whether we go EV or not, our demand for electricity grows year after year. This energy distribution network isn't dependent on one single source of energy "OIL" and we can fuel it with Gas, Nuclear, Renewable and Oil etc. Storage capacity of EV's can play a part in regulating that network and in the process we can reduce our dependence on a single energy source.

I'd also love to know how a "designated charging point" for an EV differs from a designated refilling station for an ICE car

Sesshoumaru · 17-04-2012 09:25PM

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Your electrical car bias is almost comical. It takes longer to fill your car then to put petrol in a ICE car. Unless you can fully charge your car in less than 2 mins then that has to be a joke.

So one of the primary problems then.

Plenty of ICE cars have that option its not unique to electric cars.I have no problems with electric cars and I would get one if they get all the issues resolved.

I will say this your fan-boy attitude wont do your electrical cause any good.

In reply to challengemaster I dealt with why 90% of the time an EV is faster to fill up than an ICE car. You can reply to me there if you disagree.

This thread was started by me with a comparison to a similar sized and priced ICE car, a VW Golf BlueMotion. Does this car or any other similarly priced car have the option to heat or cool the cabin on a schedule? or remotely activate the climate control to heat or cool the cabin via a smartphone app? That's just one feature of the telematics service. It keeps tabs on my energy usage, I don't have to keep receipts or notes on how much I'm spending on fuel, it's all done completely automatically. I can logon to the Carwings portal and use the navigation tool to plan a journey and then tell it to upload it to the cars navigation system. Next time I get in the car, my route will be there and I just select it.

Maybe an ICE does exist that has a similar telematics service? I certainly haven't seen one before and I'm certain it doesn't exist in an ICE car that costs 25k new.

Zubeneschamali · 17-04-2012 09:26PM

kippy wrote: »

In a two car family, I do think there is room for one of these cars.

Well, yes, from a range point of view, but our 2nd car doesn't do the miles needed for the big savings on running costs to kick in.

For a 25K 2nd car, I'd rather buy a Cooper S, and have some fun.

Sesshoumaru · 17-04-2012 09:27PM

MYOB wrote: »

Seeing as the environmental damage from building any car is massive, let alone that EVs are worse than ICE cars for that; having one as a second car when you could have coped with one is about as un-green as humanly possible...

Good first post in a thread comparing a 25k EV to a 25k ICE car and also the first time green issues have been raised by anyone in the thread

kippy · 17-04-2012 09:34PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

kippy wrote: »

In a two car family, I do think there is room for one of these cars./QUOTE]

Well, yes, from a range point of view, but our 2nd car doesn't do the miles needed for the big savings on running costs to kick in.

For a 25K 2nd car, I'd rather buy a Cooper S, and have some fun.

As I said, the price point is the issue.

Sesshoumaru · 17-04-2012 09:37PM

pburns wrote: »

I've never seen anyone so happy that the price of a car they bought has dropped by 5 grand. That'd buy a fair bit of diesel, eh Sesshoumaru?;) Whatever floats your boat.

Maybe for 25k it is worth a punt for some people's needs or as a second car - good luck to them. I hope they don't let the pursuit of efficiency become an obsession.

Slightly off topic for motors, but what really annoys me is not polar bear cubs or baby seals dying, but our total dependence on OIL coming from countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia & Argentina etc. How that dependency warps global diplomacy I find completely insufferable! So I can put my hand on my heart and say without reservation, that I would be dancing with joy tomorrow if they dropped the Leaf down to 10k in price. Some things in life are more important than money!

Bigus · 17-04-2012 09:48PM

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Currently and electric car doesnt do as much as a normal ICE

Until it does has the exact same ability as a ICE (and at the same cost) they wont become a viable option for most people. Sure for some people they are useful and work very well but not for your average joe.

An ev will never be the same as ICE so accept that and begin to see the benefits .

If there is an oil scare/ shortage/strike/ Israel bombing the Sh1t* out of Iran/upheaval in Saudi or storm in the gulf / or / or /or whatever , to cut your oil supply, suddenly,

A leaf will look very good all of a sudden, and you won't be so critical of one then , if only you could get a lend of one.

Some of us remember 1973 and you would very quickly forgive shortcomings in any viable "Car " than cycle or walk more than 20 miles which might be your only alternative,if there are no ev's about and there,s restrictions on veg oil, for your diesel.

When you tell your children that each vehicle had its own power source with all it's complications and consequences, they will laugh at you and your wasteful ways.

Imagine if every house in the country was powered by a Honda generator just because we don't trust that ESB crowd and sure that's the way we always did it !

Not picking on Lightening here but things will change as oil get's dearer, and having a car that does 0 - 60 in under 8 secs and do 400 miles for 100 euro is gong to be looked back on as a fairy tale ,so enjoy it while it lasts lads

even at 1.70 € fuel going to look fierce cheap soon, compared to what it will rise to.

So the sooner we embrace change the better prepared we'll all be.

So

17-04-2012 10:08PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

............ It's clear I've removed what is a weekly diversion for most to the petrol station.............

I pass the fecking things every day, it's no diversion to pull into one once a week and fill the tank

Seriously, describing getting petrol as a diversion is a gross exageration.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

............

This thread was started by me with a comparison to a similar sized and priced ICE car, a VW Golf BlueMotion. Does this car or any other similarly priced car have the option to heat or cool the cabin on a schedule?..............

Remote start (just leave the thing in neutral and have the heater settings to your liking) can be added to any car for a few hundred for the best part of the last 10 years, part of an alarm system

Bigus wrote: »

An ev will never be the same as ICE so accept that and begin to see the benefits .
...................

When you tell your children that each vehicle had its own power source with all it's complications and consequences, they will laugh at you and your wasteful ways. ....................
So the sooner we embrace change the better prepared we'll all be.

So

I can see folks in the future laughing at folks who reckoned the Leaf or anything like it is the future too

BrianD3 · 17-04-2012 10:15PM

I'd consider buying a Leaf for 25k if it was a bit better looking and had a bit longer range. The type of driving I do is predictable and mostly open road (R and N roads) driving. I don't drive much on motorways and when I do I now limit my speed to 100 km/h to save fuel.

My average speed overall is about 45 mph. I get mid 40s mpg from my petrol Laguna and mid-high 60s mpg from a diesel Megane.

If I could get a Leaf to do 150 miles on one charge that would do me fine. If I could get it to do 100 miles it would do but would not be ideal.

Not sure if the 5k discount on the Leaf is a game changer but i do think it makes the Fluence ZE for 21k plus significant battery leasing cost seem like bad value. The Renault Zoe looks like it will be a better car than the Fluence but AFAIK it will still be a battery lease arrangement. Maybe Renault will need to rethink this or at least reduce the costs.

17-04-2012 10:15PM

Bigus wrote: »

........

Imagine if every house in the country was powered by a Honda generator just because we don't trust that ESB crowd and sure that's the way we always did it !...........

But that never was the case so isn't at all analogous to most families having an ICE powered car.

unkel · 17-04-2012 10:29PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Storage capacity of EV's can play a part in regulating that network

That's actually a rather strong argument. The subsidy on new EVs might be taken away, but the price of night electricity is likely to remain low, very low.

And even if you soon have to pay the full retail price of day time electricity for a fast public charge, it'd still only be something like 24kWh times whatever it is these days, 16c? So €3.84 for say a realistic 100km. Still well less than half compared to a modern diesel

The guy said 3 times the power per battery weight is possible (when?) compared to the Leaf now. I'd say double the kWh (and thus the range) plus more faith in longevity of the batteries (extended warranties, lower monthly lease, Renault and Nissan!) and we are talking a real game changer

Bigus · 17-04-2012 10:54PM

RoverJames wrote: »

But that never was the case so isn't at all analogous to most families having an ICE powered car.

It most certainly is analogous because non ev people seem to think having an ICE and a 400 mile range is sacrosanct even though most people never did more than 200 miles in a day.

it would be ridiculous for every house to have an ice generator as you agree but ,my point is that if they had them in the past this would seem the norm and every other option would seem stupid to the ill informed.

17-04-2012 11:04PM

Bigus wrote: »

.............

it would be ridiculous for every house to have an ice generator as you agree but ,my point is that if they had them in the past this would seem the norm and every other option would seem stupid to the ill informed.

But they didn't have them in the past, to try and put forward the point that if they did it would have been seen as the norm and any other option to seem stupid to the ill informed is a bit of a stretch imo. Most people aren't stupid, ill informed folk cans still figure things out for themselves.

Things that become the norm generally have some practical advantages over other options

They have a viability and are attainable to folk, EVs may well become that in time.

Zubeneschamali · 18-04-2012 09:17AM

BrianD3 wrote: »

I don't drive much on motorways and when I do I now limit my speed to 100 km/h to save fuel.

Do you also spend your free time working at McDonald's for minimum wage? Because you're saving less than that per hour wasted on the motorway. My time is worth a whole lot more than that.

Zubeneschamali · 18-04-2012 09:19AM

BrianD3 wrote: »

Maybe Renault will need to rethink this or at least reduce the costs.

Or maybe Leaf buyers are going to learn why Renault thinks the batteries cost so much long term.

BrianD3 · 18-04-2012 11:22AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Do you also spend your free time working at McDonald's for minimum wage? Because you're saving less than that per hour wasted on the motorway.

If I worked for minimum wage in my free time I'd pay 41% tax (+ USC etc.) on whatever I earned.

Also I don't see how you can even make this comment without knowing what mpg my cars do at various speeds. The Megane does about 62 mpg at 100 km/h and about 48 mpg at 120 km/h. To save one hour in time I'd have to drive 550 km and this hour that I saved would cost me ~12 euro from my net income.

Zubeneschamali · 18-04-2012 11:38AM

BrianD3 wrote: »

The Megane does about 62 mpg at 100 km/h and about 48 mpg at 120 km/h.

1000 km at 100 km/hr, 10 hours. 1000 km at 120 km/hr, 8.3 hours. Time saved, 1.7 hours. 1000 km at 62 mpg, or 4.6 l/100km = 46 litres, say €73. 1000 km at 48 mpg, or 5.9 l/100km = 56 litres, say €90.

You're paying yourself €17 to drive for 1.7 hours, or €10 an hour, a little more than €8.65 minimum wage.

RoverZT · 18-04-2012 02:24PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

1000 km at 100 km/hr, 10 hours. 1000 km at 120 km/hr, 8.3 hours. Time saved, 1.7 hours. 1000 km at 62 mpg, or 4.6 l/100km = 46 litres, say €73. 1000 km at 48 mpg, or 5.9 l/100km = 56 litres, say €90.

You're paying yourself €17 to drive for 1.7 hours, or €10 an hour, a little more than €8.65 minimum wage.

What do you drive?

18-04-2012 02:30PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

...........

You're paying yourself €17 to drive for 1.7 hours, or €10 an hour, a little more than €8.65 minimum wage.

Or you could look at it as a saving of €17, many folk need to earn €35 to end up with €17 extra in the wages. So he's paying himself €20+/hour

RoverZT · 18-04-2012 02:33PM

RoverJames wrote: »

Or you could look at it as a saving of €17, many folk need to earn €35 to end up with €17 extra in the wages. So he's paying himself €20+/hour

But he is an electrical engineer by training.

Time is money with him.

I take it easy on the road like BrianD3 as well.

Francie Barrett · 18-04-2012 03:16PM

TheZ wrote: »

How long before apple bring out the iCar?

It has already been done - a Golf with an iPod connection :pac:

pburns · 18-04-2012 03:56PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

If I worked for minimum wage in my free time I'd pay 41% tax (+ USC etc.) on whatever I earned.

Also I don't see how you can even make this comment without knowing what mpg my cars do at various speeds. The Megane does about 62 mpg at 100 km/h and about 48 mpg at 120 km/h. To save one hour in time I'd have to drive 550 km and this hour that I saved would cost me ~12 euro from my net income.

Dude, life's too short...

Zubeneschamali · 18-04-2012 04:03PM

RoverZT wrote: »

What do you drive?

An S-Max diesel or a Mini Cooper.

Paparazzo · 18-04-2012 04:17PM

TheZ wrote: »

How long before apple bring out the iCar?

It'll have a range that's half the Leaf, take a day to charge, cost 3 times the price. But will have a queue of 1000 people outside the dealers waiting for one on release day, and the same people outside a year later waiting to upgrade the icar 2 that has a range 10km longer and an added feature of a parking sensor.

scamalert · 18-04-2012 04:17PM

why not instead of spending 25k on a electric leaf buy couple low mileage 1.4l toyotas and drive for another 10 years saved euros, that you would of spent on leaf.Never understood people willing to fork out over 20g for a car to buy a $hitbox.

savagecabbages · 18-04-2012 08:13PM

Me, i like the idea of a Leaf, as I would only out-range it 3 or 4 times a year, but my old fashioned mindset has a mental block about what would I do those 3 or 4 times:rolleyes: I'm sure I could manage, I got by ok with no car for several years!!
I cant think of the last time I used a full tank of fuel in one go without refuelling somewhere. For the Leafs supposedly limited range I think of it in terms of how long do i drive my ICE car in one go without what could be a charging interval before the next trip...

It'd make an ideal primary car, with a 'nice' car as a backup or weekend car. I know thats not exactly green thinking, but the whole point of me getting an EV would be to reduce my reliance on oil for transport, and Irelands constantly expanding renewable energy infrastructure should mean electricity prices wont be going up in line with oil prices. Oil will never go down in price, and we're due another oil/fuel crisis once the Middle East rears up in a big way -which it will!

Once that happens we'll all see Sesshoumaru humming past us in his Leaf while we queue at the only pumps in town:p

Leonard Hofstadter · 18-04-2012 08:15PM

You can be sure of one thing, the current low running costs of a Leaf won't last forever, the Government aren't going to give up on all the money they make off motorists that easily! If/when EVs and alternative fuel vehicles become popular, they will just find another way to get the money off us - road pricing being one such way of making up the shortfall.

L1011 · 18-04-2012 08:35PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Good first post in a thread comparing a 25k EV to a 25k ICE car and also the first time green issues have been raised by anyone in the thread

Well seeing as the subsidy on the car, the free installation of a charging point, etc is done entirely down to alleged "green credentials", it is a rather important point.

EV's have poor green credentials as it is, and they become brutal if one is being bought as a replacement for a functioning ICE car or as a second car to an ICE car.

Leaf price drop - game changer?

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