Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 18-04-2012 09:21AM

Otacon wrote: »

Personally, I want a neutral head coach, to make the tough choices for the development of the province TBH. While I have no doubt Foley could do a good job, I think it is a little too early for that.

Also, I want a seasoned backs coach. Umaga's record is not only limited but so far rubbish. You mention potential, yet I have not seen anything from him to suggest it exists.

I don't think that Foley would have any problem with neutrality. If anything he'll show more faith in the youngsters due to his experience with the "A" team. He has already been the forward's coach who has hand in promoting younger players ahead of past teammates in Leamy and DOC.

I do feel that it might be too soon for Foley. Regardless of feelings for Munster the province, I think that every rugby fan in the country honestly wants Foley to succeed. We have already seen the steep learning curve that McGahan has undergone as he stepped up too quickly and I'd rather Foley make the step up when he is 100% ready.

I don't think anyone here knows much if anything about Umaga as a coach. He was a great player, but that doesn't mean he'll be a great coach. You'd like to think that the brains-trust has done their research and that Umaga is more than just a high profile name in the rugby world.

A Penney-Foley-Umaga team would be my preference, but I wouldn't be unhappy to see Foley take the reigns. If Foley does get the top job, surely we'll need to get someone in to take either the forwards or defense though? I know Schmidt does mostly everything at Leinster, but it would be too soon in Foley's career to have him spread so thin; especially with two training bases to oversee.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 18-04-2012 09:24AM

Junior wrote: »

I'm going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, Is Foley a good coach ? Considering Munster are playing a similar forwards style to Ireland and we've seen how that's worked out - terrible. To clarify I don't doubt his nous, his man management, but can Munster develop their forward play into something better if this is his first effort ?

I think its fairly obvious to see the effect that Foley has had on the Munster pack. Since the tail run of last season when Foley is rumoured to have taken over from Gandalf, there has been a noticeable improvement in Munster's forward play. It might not be perfect, but considering the players available, it has been impressive.

The problems with Munster's play lie hugely with the back's/attack coaching.

totallegend · 18-04-2012 09:38AM

Lelantos wrote: »

It seems these are the only 3 names we can attract. Why? Best guess is that the money isn't there to attract all the big name coaches. Can't see them shelling out for 3 positions in total, just not going to happen imo

I don't think it's money, I think it's more that any coach looking in will see what happened with McGahan and realise that Foley is going to be the head coach sooner or later, and that any appointment would be purely caretaker until Munster decide Foley is ready.

totallegend · 18-04-2012 09:42AM

danthefan wrote: »

Considering Munster had over 70% ball against Ulster, you don't do that with a substandard pack imo. There was a massive failure in attack, which is outside Foley's remit.

I don't know, it's one thing having 70% possession but could you really say the Munster forwards were dominant over Ulster? How often did they really drive through the Ulster defensive line and get Murray and ROG on the front foot? Ulster were comfortable at the set-piece and I'm struggling to remember any cohesive forward play from Munster, driving mauls etc.

Not saying they were bad, and the attacking play from the backs was very poor, but I think it's a bit simplistic to say that once we get the backs sorted, it'll all fall into place.

the_blackstuff · 18-04-2012 09:59AM

I would be slightly afraid that it might be a bit early for Foley to step up to the head coaches job tho down the line i can see him doing a good job in that position. Just feel he needs more experience. Could it possibly cause problems tho if he was to stay as forwards coach under someone else who applied for head coach? The new guy might feel threatened by the coach in waiting.
I think Umaga is a no no. We really need a backs coach but is he the answer for that job either? Im not sure either. He seems to have been a failure so far.
Penney might be the answer with Foley and who Im not sure.

irishbucsfan · 18-04-2012 09:59AM

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd love to see all three in there. Penney with his head coaching experience, Foley continuing with the defense and pack and learning and Tana taking the backs on. Hopefully that's what they're looking at as well.

That would scare me, as a leinster fan.

It seems these are the only 3 names we can attract. Why? Best guess is that the money isn't there to attract all the big name coaches. Can't see them shelling out for 3 positions in total, just not going to happen imo

Money not being there is just a guess on your part though.

Can't see Penney demanding more than McGahan, so the only person they'd have to "shell out" extra for is Umaga. And how much more than Holland would he really cost? They're not even increasing the head count.

ormond lad · 18-04-2012 10:15AM

totallegend wrote: »

Which part do you not like? Foley or Umaga? I don't know, could be brilliant but a very inexperienced ticket...

Could be brilliant but dont like the idea of 2 quite unexperienced coaches together.
We need an experienced coach ideally with expertise in coaching a backline. Umaga was a good centre but can we risk employing him to coach our backline. Id much rather a more experienced coach who can takeover with foley ideally continuing with what he is doing in his current roles

Junior · 18-04-2012 10:19AM

Also just wondering If Foley goes head coach Umaga as backs coach, where does that leave the possibility of Howlett stepping into that breach ?

touts · 18-04-2012 10:23AM

Lelantos wrote: »

It seems these are the only 3 names we can attract. Why? Best guess is that the money isn't there to attract all the big name coaches. Can't see them shelling out for 3 positions in total, just not going to happen imo

The job isn't as attractive as we might like to think. The best players in the squad are almost all going to retire within the time scale of the contract. There are a few young lads coming through from the underage setup but not to the same degree that Leinster have and certainly none that really close to the standard of ROG, POC, Wallace, DOC, Flannery, MOD, Stringer, JH, MH, Dougie, Quinnie, Mafi etc (who are all just gone or about to go within the timescale of the contract).

What limited scope there was to bring in players is gone as McGahan has already decided next year's signings with Downing and LuaLua and they are hardly awe inspiring signings. After that the new rules on NIQ players severely limit who can be recruited in future years especially with the form teams of Leinster and Ulster also competing for the signature of any talented Irish lad that comes available (e.g. Bowe, Cronin, Boss etc). Munster are now third choice for most Irish players looking for a move.

On top of that you have the IRFU dictating who you can sign and when your best players are available to you. The team has to change significantly week after week to meet international requirements but the pool of players just isn't there to allow that turnover. And the frustration is that many of the players that are off on Ireland duty (SZ, Varley, Sherry, CM, POM, FJ etc) won't be starting players and will be carrying the team bags around while you are losing matches for their absence.

Your training and matchdays and squad are split between two cities linked by a third world standard road. At the same time expectations of the fans are HUGE. League titles are a consolation prize. It's win the HEC or be a failure.

Just like becoming Fianna Fail leader after Bertie was a job worth skipping the Munster job after McGahan is a job that worth skipping. If you had ambitions to greatness as a coach why would you be the one to step in to take control of a plane in a nosedive when you could bide your time for a couple of years and be the one to pick up the pieces (assuming they can be put back together again).

Riskymove · 18-04-2012 10:49AM

touts wrote: »

The job isn't as attractive as we might like to think......

well done, I don't think I have seen so many digs and (partly) veiled insults in the one post before...I am off to contact Norris McWhirter to make it official!!

Teferi · 18-04-2012 11:00AM

Riskymove wrote: »

well done, I don't think I have seen so many digs and (partly) veiled insults in the one post before...I am off to contact Norris McWhirter to make it official!!

Don't instantly go into defense mode. Actually read and possibly debate his comment. He makes some valid points that may be correct.

touts · 18-04-2012 11:05AM

Riskymove wrote: »

well done, I don't think I have seen so many digs and (partly) veiled insults in the one post before...I am off to contact Norris McWhirter to make it official!!

Its simply spelling out where we are as a team in transition. It would take a special coach to want to take on the challenge and make it a success and I'm not sure how many of those are out there. It doesn't mean I won't be cheering them on for the next couple of years as they make that very difficult transition. My season ticket is renewed and I'll be there but a lot of fickle fans won't because they won't understand what has to be done for the next couple of years and will benchmark the team against past achievements. If you want to stick your head in the sand do but we need to be realistic about where we are and what the next coach has to do.

jm08 · 18-04-2012 11:36AM

touts wrote: »

On top of that you have the IRFU dictating who you can sign and when your best players are available to you. The team has to change significantly week after week to meet international requirements but the pool of players just isn't there to allow that turnover. And the frustration is that many of the players that are off on Ireland duty (SZ, Varley, Sherry, CM, POM, FJ etc) won't be starting players and will be carrying the team bags around while you are losing matches for their absence.

Anyone on tackle bag duty is generally allowed to return to their club at the weekend for gametime. Benching is more of a problem in that respect as you get little gametime, yet you can't play at the weekend.

Thought O'Gara suffered a lot for that in the last 6Ns. Hadn't taken any place kicks in a match situation for about 2 months prior to the Leinster game

jm08 · 18-04-2012 11:40AM

touts wrote: »

Its simply spelling out where we are as a team in transition. It would take a special coach to want to take on the challenge and make it a success and I'm not sure how many of those are out there. It doesn't mean I won't be cheering them on for the next couple of years as they make that very difficult transition. My season ticket is renewed and I'll be there but a lot of fickle fans won't because they won't understand what has to be done for the next couple of years and will benchmark the team against past achievements. If you want to stick your head in the sand do but we need to be realistic about where we are and what the next coach has to do.

Not that many top coaching jobs around. Wouldn't want a coach who wasn't up for a challenge in the first place. You'd want him to believe in himself that he can turn it around and build his own team. Think its quite exciting really.

Riskymove · 18-04-2012 11:41AM

touts wrote: »

Its simply spelling out where we are as a team in transition.

Teferi wrote:

Don't instantly go into defense mode. Actually read and possibly debate his comment. He makes some valid points that may be correct.

with the exception of the point about players ageing, all the points you make have applied for some time, some of them apply to all Irish provinces

I also think that the bit about fan's expectation is overstated - I'd say few expected Munster to win the HEC this season. The more frustrating thing for fans recently has not been the fact that we have not won the HEC, but the nature of performances

Any Head Coach coming in would get a club with basically guaranteed HEC every year and a decent size fan base. It is also a much better time to take over now, imo, than replacing Kidney after he brought two HEC wins.

instantly writing off our signings for next season, calling fans names and describing the club (HC quarters, in Rabo playoffs) as "in a nosedive and about to crash" is all just rethoric to me.

I personally dont think it would take much from an enthousiastic coach to improve the Munster performances and have them playing different tactics.
Certainly, the road between Cork and Limerick wont put any coach off!

WeeBushy · 18-04-2012 11:58AM

jm08 wrote: »

Anyone on tackle bag duty is generally allowed to return to their club at the weekend for gametime. Benching is more of a problem in that respect as you get little gametime, yet you can't play at the weekend.

It still severely disrupts preparations though. Players that have been training with Ireland cannot prepare for their province's match at the weekend, and the starting team won't have trained together all week. It's often better to put these players on the bench so that at least your starting XV will have prepared for the match together.

Lelantos · 18-04-2012 11:59AM

totallegend wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

It seems these are the only 3 names we can attract. Why? Best guess is that the money isn't there to attract all the big name coaches. Can't see them shelling out for 3 positions in total, just not going to happen imo

I don't think it's money, I think it's more that any coach looking in will see what happened with McGahan and realise that Foley is going to be the head coach sooner or later, and that any appointment would be purely caretaker until Munster decide Foley is ready.

I've just read Alan Quinlans piece in the Times today, now I'm bloody sure I'm right.

Lelantos · 18-04-2012 12:06PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd love to see all three in there. Penney with his head coaching experience, Foley continuing with the defense and pack and learning and Tana taking the backs on. Hopefully that's what they're looking at as well.

That would scare me, as a leinster fan.

It seems these are the only 3 names we can attract. Why? Best guess is that the money isn't there to attract all the big name coaches. Can't see them shelling out for 3 positions in total, just not going to happen imo

Money not being there is just a guess on your part though.

Can't see Penney demanding more than McGahan, so the only person they'd have to "shell out" extra for is Umaga. And how much more than Holland would he really cost? They're not even increasing the head count.

Top coaches want big pay, none of the names thatwere mentioned at the start gave materialized, its a known fact Munster lose money every year, belts gave to be tightened now

Junior · 18-04-2012 12:10PM

Lelantos wrote: »

Top coaches want big pay, none of the names thatwere mentioned at the start gave materialized, its a known fact Munster lose money every year, belts gave to be tightened now

Proof or GTFO. They've turned a loss this year for the first in six as far as I am aware.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 18-04-2012 12:12PM

Lelantos wrote: »

Top coaches want big pay, none of the names thatwere mentioned at the start gave materialized, its a known fact Munster lose money every year, belts gave to be tightened now

This year was the first year in however long that Munster have posted a deficit. Without the IRFU's assistance, all the provinces operate in the red.

ormond lad · 18-04-2012 12:19PM

Lelantos wrote: »

Top coaches want big pay, none of the names thatwere mentioned at the start gave materialized, its a known fact Munster lose money every year, belts gave to be tightened now

Rubbish, 1st year in 6 that we posted a loss
http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/?c=rugby&e=examiner&jp=kfsnaukfgbgb

onlyrocknroll · 18-04-2012 12:24PM

touts wrote: »

Its simply spelling out where we are as a team in transition. It would take a special coach to want to take on the challenge and make it a success and I'm not sure how many of those are out there. It doesn't mean I won't be cheering them on for the next couple of years as they make that very difficult transition. My season ticket is renewed and I'll be there but a lot of fickle fans won't because they won't understand what has to be done for the next couple of years and will benchmark the team against past achievements. If you want to stick your head in the sand do but we need to be realistic about where we are and what the next coach has to do.

I don't want to claim that everything's rosy at Munster but you've seriously exaggerated some points though.

Munster have always coped well with sending out weakened teams in the Rabo/Magners. A team that's finishing near the top of the league each year can't really be accused of losing in the absence of its international players currently. If a coaching team that is stronger than the current one is appointed this surely won't be a problem.

Munster's depth in the backs will be pretty impressive next year, or second row is surprisingly deep, and depending on injuries we should be fine in the back row. The only real areas where there is a lack of depth is front row and half back.

Your roll call of departed or soon to depart players is pretty scary

ROG, POC, Wallace, DOC, Flannery, MOD, Stringer, JH, MH, Dougie, Quinnie, Mafi etc

but its premature to say that younger players coming through are not to the "same degree" as those players or young players in Leinster. Munster A's victory over a Leinster A side with a lot more top level experience demonstrates that there is at least quality and potential there.

POM, Ryan, Coughlan, Botha, Earls, Jones and (IMO) Murray will remain as top level players for a few more years. (Granted Botha and Coughlan are on the wrong side of 30).

Of the younger players there is pretty serious promise in Sherry, Zebo, LOD and DOC2. Other players like Butler, Nagle Foley etc may yet deliver. It's worth baring in mind that they haven't been afforded the same opportunities that their Leinster co-parts have. On balance I'd say time will tell how Munster will be when we lose that generation.

irishbucsfan · 18-04-2012 12:53PM

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd love to see all three in there. Penney with his head coaching experience, Foley continuing with the defense and pack and learning and Tana taking the backs on. Hopefully that's what they're looking at as well.

That would scare me, as a leinster fan.

It seems these are the only 3 names we can attract. Why? Best guess is that the money isn't there to attract all the big name coaches. Can't see them shelling out for 3 positions in total, just not going to happen imo

Money not being there is just a guess on your part though.

Can't see Penney demanding more than McGahan, so the only person they'd have to "shell out" extra for is Umaga. And how much more than Holland would he really cost? They're not even increasing the head count.

Top coaches want big pay, none of the names thatwere mentioned at the start gave materialized, its a known fact Munster lose money every year, belts gave to be tightened now

Rob Penney was mentioned from the beginning, so was Foley. Umaga is the only surprise.

Realistically I see no financial barrier to bringing these guys in.

Lelantos · 18-04-2012 01:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd love to see all three in there. Penney with his head coaching experience, Foley continuing with the defense and pack and learning and Tana taking the backs on. Hopefully that's what they're looking at as well.

That would scare me, as a leinster fan.

It seems these are the only 3 names we can attract. Why? Best guess is that the money isn't there to attract all the big name coaches. Can't see them shelling out for 3 positions in total, just not going to happen imo

Money not being there is just a guess on your part though.

Can't see Penney demanding more than McGahan, so the only person they'd have to "shell out" extra for is Umaga. And how much more than Holland would he really cost? They're not even increasing the head count.

Top coaches want big pay, none of the names thatwere mentioned at the start gave materialized, its a known fact Munster lose money every year, belts gave to be tightened now

Rob Penney was mentioned from the beginning, so was Foley. Umaga is the only surprise.

Realistically I see no financial barrier to bringing these guys in.

Penney was never a name the fans bandied around or the papers for that matter at the v start Kirwan, Smith even EOS said he was interested, none of these were interviewed, maybe none were considered. As I said before, Munster lose money every year, now we have to cut our cloth to suit the economic climate.

Amazotheamazing · 18-04-2012 02:45PM

Lelantos wrote: »

Penney was never a name the fans bandied around or the papers for that matter at the v start Kirwan, Smith even EOS said he was interested, none of these were interviewed, maybe none were considered. As I said before, Munster lose money every year, now we have to cut our cloth to suit the economic climate.

It doesn't really matter if Munster make or lose money as we're underwritten by the IRFU.

Foxtrol · 18-04-2012 03:16PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It doesn't really matter if Munster make or lose money as we're underwritten by the IRFU.

How do you get to that conclusion? Munster is pretty much a subsidiary and the IRFU a parent and like this sort of relationship in the real economy the parent underwrites the subsidiary and assists in its funding. However, if the subsidiary is already not meeting its own budgets and making losses the parent is unlikely to allow the subsidiary to flash more cash on what could be seen as unnecessary increase in costs. I can’t see the IRFU allowing Munster to spend its way out of its current situation,without cutting costs, as it eventually has to foot the bill.

Lelantos · 18-04-2012 03:50PM

Junior wrote: »

Proof or GTFO. They've turned a loss this year for the first in six as far as I am aware.

This is a direct quote from Alan Quilan STFU

In Ireland, none of the provinces cover costs from year to year. Player salaries, staff salaries, travel costs, rental of facilities – they all cost more money than the provinces are able to bring in. All four of them lose money for the IRFU, who make it back through the international game.

profitius · 18-04-2012 04:10PM

Lelantos wrote: »

This is a direct quote from Alan Quilan STFU
In Ireland, none of the provinces cover costs from year to year. Player salaries, staff salaries, travel costs, rental of facilities – they all cost more money than the provinces are able to bring in. All four of them lose money for the IRFU, who make it back through the international game.

You'd think that Leinster would be raking in the cash these days with all their big games at the Aviva.

Lelantos · 18-04-2012 04:20PM

profitius wrote: »

You'd think that Leinster would be raking in the cash these days with all their big games at the Aviva.

Interested to know how much the IRFU get percentage wise from those games.

Amazotheamazing · 18-04-2012 04:38PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

How do you get to that conclusion? Munster is pretty much a subsidiary and the IRFU a parent and like this sort of relationship in the real economy the parent underwrites the subsidiary and assists in its funding. However, if the subsidiary is already not meeting its own budgets and making losses the parent is unlikely to allow the subsidiary to flash more cash on what could be seen as unnecessary increase in costs. I can’t see the IRFU allowing Munster to spend its way out of its current situation,without cutting costs, as it eventually has to foot the bill.

Meh, they sink plenty of money into Ulster and Connacht every season.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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