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Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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    #842
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,320 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    IloveConverse wrote: »
    Not at all. It's worrying that a language that's been with us since the 4th century is behind one that became prevalent in recent decades.

    I honestly don't think it's at risk. The people keeping it alive are the people who speak it, those who study it by choice or those who use it as an artistic medium. People who don't want to study it at Leaving Cert contribute nothing to its survival and in many cases are set against it for life. Those extra two years achieve nothing positive for the language.


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    #843
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,320 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    (Perhaps History should be made compulsory too?)

    I would love to see more people take an active interest in History, but I'm against forcing people to do it for the Leaving Cert when it's against their wishes.


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    #844
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    They would be more informed about the history of Ireland and the world if they did.

    For example knowing why Irish was made compulsory in the first place.

    Then common sense would show them that successive governments and voters have backed the decision to make and keep it compulsory. (democracy in action)

    That is "why" and that is the reason behind the "because". The Department of Education says so with the backing of the Government and the majority of people.


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    #845
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,320 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    They would be more informed about the history of Ireland and the world if they did.

    For example knowing why Irish was made compulsory in the first place.

    It could be argued that it was driven by an urge to set us apart from the British, something we've surely grown out of, but I'll let you delve into the historiography yourself.


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    #846
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    kowloon wrote: »
    It could be argued that it was driven by an urge to set us apart from the British, something we've surely grown out of, but I'll let you delve into the historiography yourself.

    Irish has a lot in common with British languages like Scottish, Welsh, Manx etc but I suppose that depends on what you mean as British.

    We have been speaking Irish for longer than any language similar to modern English has been spoken in Britain so distinguishing ourselves does not make much sense there.

    Also we used Catholicism to "distinguish" ourselves, not Irish. The Welsh did more of that.


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    #847
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    d_max wrote: »
    Should be compulsory as without learning Irish they may as well not be Irish.
    Really. There exists a long list of Irish people who have made a huge difference to this country and the world and weren't Irish speakers.
    Its part of who we are.
    The underlined is the operative word.
    Without it we are nobody.
    Riiight. I'll give you a quote from one of the true "fathers" of modern Ireland. A native Irish speaker too.

    "Although the Irish language is connected with the many recollections that twine around the hearts of Irishmen, yet the superior utility of the English tongue, as the medium of all modern communication, is so great that I can witness without a sigh the gradual decline of the Irish language."
    Daniel O'Connell.
    Comes in handy when you are abroad and you want to slag other nationalities without them understanding!!
    From the sublime to the ridick. :pac:
    It is part of who WE are as it is the first official language of Ireland under article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf)
    There's an awful lot of God in the same constitution. Indeed it sets out that many higher echelon members of our society must "swear an oath to almighty God". Many aspects of the same constitution held back Ireland on a couple of human rights points and were heavily influenced by the Catholic churches heirarchy. So using that document in defence of your position is debatable. If you're Church of Ireland or an atheist you're not really Irish either, even if you're fluent in the language.
    if people stop studying it then as a result it will die out.
    Debatable. Personally I'm not nearly as gung ho for this idea of it's extinction as both camps seem to be. In any event we can see that it was dying out as a wider Irish method of communication for a very long time. Daniel O'Connel noted it. Now one can argue for all sorts of reasons why this was happening. The English, the famine, mass emigration(inc. internally to the urban centres). All valid to one degree or other, but the result was the same. The IRISH people were voting with their feet and continued to do so.

    Aside. One aspect I've always found interesting on this score was the use or lack of use of the language amongst the Irish diaspora. Take America for instance. Other immigrant populations retained their native tongues to some degree or other, even as extended slang. The Italian and Jewish and Chinese immigrants for example(and more recently the Hispanic folks). This didn't seem to happen with the Irish immigrants. Even more oddly as the majority would have come from those Irish speaking areas, many escaping the very famine that is rightfully implicated as having some effect(though it was declining beforehand). I could understand it if they were leaving from urban centres like say Dublin or Cork. There is some evidence IIRC of the first generation conversing as Gaelige, but by the time of the Celtic revival in the late 19th century native or fluent speakers were very thin on the ground to act as teachers(usually relying on recent emigres). In pretty much one generation the Irish language usage of the Irish American population dwindled to a tiny minority. The only other ones I can think of that were similar were Polish and German populations. Yet with the latter you still get some old German language among the isolated Amish. So while the Irish as a group in the US had many and varied influences on that nation, their language wasn't one of them. Odd

    /Aside
    It is also part of who we are as before any of us were born this is the language of our forefathers. Before the English language was in this country everybody spoke Irish. Meaning your ancestors spoke it:eek:
    And the majority of those very same ancestors chose over time to stop speaking it. Including in countries where the hated engerlish had no sway.
    IloveConverse wrote: »
    Irish should continue to be compulsory as it's clearly part of who we were.
    FYP. Well more were than are anyway.

    Declan Lynch wrote in the last Sunday Independent about the lies portrayed in the Census- that '1.77 million people said that they were able to speak the Irish language'. Seems as if those who rant about the language being 'a waste of time', are somewhat secretly embarrassed about the downward spiral that Irish is caught in- and ultimately their standard of the language that made them who they are.
    Or they feel culturally bullied and guilted into a sense of culture that doesn't actually belong to them anymore to any great degree beyond lip service?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #848
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    Then common sense would show them that successive governments and voters have backed the decision to make and keep it compulsory. (democracy in action)
    Funny I never noticed a vote on keeping or extending compulsion in Irish. The only example I can think of even vaguely similar was the internal vote on relying exclusively on Irish in the civil service for internal procedure. Irish "lost". Governments have also reduced the Irish requirement in other areas since the 60's. So not quite as black and white as you make out.
    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    We have been speaking Irish for longer than any language similar to modern English has been spoken in Britain so distinguishing ourselves does not make much sense there.
    The Irish you speak/are learning/grew up with is as different to old Irish as modern English is to Chaucer. Well nearly. IIRC it's more like Latin, has extra genders and pronunciations are different. Things like TH and GH are pronounced as you would pronounce them in modern English, not the soft sound of modern Irish. Hopefully Enkidu comes along soon, he's a charm and education on this stuff. :)

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #849
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Funny I never noticed a vote on keeping or extending compulsion in Irish. The only example I can think of even vaguely similar was the internal vote on relying exclusively on Irish in the civil service for internal procedure. Irish "lost". Governments have also reduced the Irish requirement in other areas since the 60's. So not quite as black and white as you make out.

    The Irish you speak/are learning/grew up with is as different to old Irish as modern English is to Chaucer. Well nearly. IIRC it's more like Latin, has extra genders and pronunciations are different. Things like TH and GH are pronounced as you would pronounce them in modern English, not the soft sound of modern Irish. Hopefully Enkidu comes along soon, he's a charm and education on this stuff. :)

    Each government has backed its continual compulsion. FG made a fuss but dropped it. No it is not black and white. I have not made it out to be black and white. But it is a fact that the majority of people have and continue to back it as compulsory. People in general do not have a problem with it being compulsory except a minority.

    Making Irish optional was not a major vocal point to any of the reforms in the education system of the past 70+ years.

    I know the Irish I learned is different to 200 years ago and that is very different to Irish 1000 years ago. In fact my English and Irish is quite different than that of the early and mid 20th century even.

    Irish was spoken here before the language which became modern English was spoken in Britain. That was my rebuttal to the silly comment on "distinguishing" ourselves.

    Of course both languages went through tremendous changes in 1500+ years.


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    #850
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Aside. One aspect I've always found interesting on this score was the use or lack of use of the language amongst the Irish diaspora. Take America for instance. Other immigrant populations retained their native tongues to some degree or other, even as extended slang. The Italian and Jewish and Chinese immigrants for example(and more recently the Hispanic folks). This didn't seem to happen with the Irish immigrants. Even more oddly as the majority would have come from those Irish speaking areas,
    This is something I always wondered as well and so far I have never really seen a good explanation of why this never happened. The only place where it even sort of happened was in New York, where "An Gaodhal" the newspaper ran from 1881-1897 (it was printed irregular after that, finally shutting down in 1904, an American guy has recently restarted it in 2009 and in my opinion its far better than the officially funded stuff here.)

    If I find out anymore I'll let you know.


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    #851
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Irish-Invented-Slang-Counterpunch/dp/1904859607

    Much like anything, it can be disputed.

    Anyway the Irish more so retained Catholicism as part of their identity rather than language whereas the Welsh and Italians to name but two kept both in a sense.


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    #852
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    It's a pretty big "minority" in fairness. Anything up to 40% depending on the polls posted by various proponents of the Irish language on boards.ie. It wouldn't take much to swing the populist argument in favour of removing compulsory Irish - especially now that Ireland has a large population of immigrants. It does beg the question: if the majority were against compulsion, would the Irish language lobby accept that the argument works both ways?


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    #853
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    Each government has backed its continual compulsion. FG made a fuss but dropped it. No it is not black and white. I have not made it out to be black and white. But it is a fact that the majority of people have and continue to back it as compulsory. People in general do not have a problem with it being compulsory except a minority.

    But for many thinking people this is the great conumdrum! lots of us do have a problem with it being compulsory for our kids, but the status quo is very hard to break, as Enda Kenny recently found out by daring to suggest that Irish be optional for Leaving Cert students! (Kenny being a fluent pro-Irish speaker himself) but obviously warned off the subject, and the national debate that we should be having, is dead in the water again.

    Its the very same thing the the religion box on the Census form, oh yes I must tick RC, (not that I am a practicing one), but I was born into the RC Church, my parents are RC, and sure isnt that part of my Irish culture, so I'll tick RC for religion, and I'll tick YES to Irish too. Cupla Focal counts as speaking Irish, doesn't it ;)

    Then, same hypothetical Irish person is asked about their kids doing mandatory Irish "Of course I want me kids to do Irish" (note I didn't say learn), sure didn't I do Irish, and me parents did Irish too, never did us any harm. I'm Irish and I don't think Irish should be dropped at all, it should always be compulsory. Sure didn't we fight for the freedom to speak Irish, and sure everybody knows you have to do Irish in school . . .

    Thats the conumdrum, but how do we break the cycle in the education system? and how do we get a debate going if the Taoiseach himself is silenced?


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    #854
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    If you have a majority the status quo is very easily changed, you have a willing government on your side.

    The thing is the majority want it to stay compulsory.

    The Taoiseach is silenced? He has not mandate or major support that is why it was dropped.


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    #855
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    The thing is the majority want it to stay compulsory.

    Well exactly, on the surface yes!

    Example; I have friends who have a seventeen year old daughter, and last year she asked to be sent to the Gaeltacht, (for the craic no doubt)? the parents thrilled, couldn't disguise their delight. The daughter went along, and by all accounts had a great time, (and she came back with a few Irish sentences! and she will of course 'do Irish' in her leaving cert.

    Neither parent speaks Irish, and I doubt if their daughter will either, but whenever talk comes up about the language they are very protective of it, and proud that their daughter went to the Gaeltacht for the summer to do Irish. My point being, that we will never get a real debate until paople like these start to "think" about what the Irish language really is. Their daughter, like every other Irish pupil has done hundreds of hours of Irish, but to what avail??? Personally I am really annoyed at the prospect of my Children doing hundreds of hours of Irish, and coming out with what exactly? I had to do Irish, I hated it, couldn't see the point, and I have only the coupla focal to show for it, and now my kids have to go through the same rigmarole for all their school years :mad:

    Make Irish a non mandatory subject for LC students I say.

    PS. Didn't RTE Newsreader Sharon Ni Bheolain 'famous Irish speaker' recently come out on the non mandatory side? her theory possibly being the same as mine "Don't force feed everybody as its not doing the language any good" relax the mandatory nature, and let the language find its level, people will stop hating it then, others will continue to love it, and all of us will know that it's still there, if and when we want it?
    http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZOcCdwPci6nAAaTak7bw6YWYs65gSAQCS9KpWhqxVmVCdOlT-


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    #856
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    Surface or not the majority do not want to make it optional. FG backtracked hard on that when they realized this.

    I went to the Gaeltacht like her in school to little avail too. I learned Irish and French to little avail too. Neither of these points changes the learning experience of those two languages and subjects.

    It is school I don't know any student who liked everything they did there. If you really do not want your kid to do Irish exemptions are easily gotten even without legitimate reasons.

    Sharon Ni Bheolains opinion is about as valid as anyone elses, 1 of millions.


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    #857
    H2UMrsRobinson
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭H2UMrsRobinson


    You can keep it on a life support machine forever, but sometimes you just got to pull the plug and see if it can breathe on it's own!


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    #858
    WillieFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭WillieFlynn


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    The average English-speaking monoglot who constitute the anti-Irish language brigade in this thread won't like this article in today's Irish Times:

    Trilingual kids will never be tongue-tied

    This article is irrelevant to the debate about compulsory Irish esp. at LC. As it talks about fluency in three language but not which three.


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    #859
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    WillieFlynn wrote: »
    This article is irrelevant to the debate about compulsory Irish esp. at LC. As it talks about fluency in three language but not which three.

    True. You could do English, French and German etc

    But the way the LC is set up you do English and Irish and another language which is a good system.
    H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »
    You can keep it on a life support machine forever, but sometimes you just got to pull the plug and see if it can breathe on it's own!

    A language which was smothered by a pillow for a long time and pronounced dead countless times is fairly resilient. Few would argue that compulsion is school is "keeping it on life support" considering all the media, technology and cultural happenings being conducted in Irish which have nothing to do with education.


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    #860
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    Surface or not the majority do not want to make it optional. FG backtracked hard on that when they realized this.

    I went to the Gaeltacht like her in school to little avail too. I learned Irish and French to little avail too. Neither of these points changes the learning experience of those two languages and subjects.

    It is school I don't know any student who liked everything they did there. If you really do not want your kid to do Irish exemptions are easily gotten even without legitimate reasons.

    Sharon Ni Bheolains opinion is about as valid as anyone elses, 1 of millions.

    And so the status quo continues, for another eight decades maybe? with Irish remaining (on paper) our 1st official language, while it most obviously isnt. Where we all do Irish in school, yet most of us can't hold any meaningful conversation in Irish after we leave school. NO no no, I think its time for something to change, the teaching of the Irish language has been an abysmal failure for decades, so its time to try something new, right?

    Make Irish optional for LC students (even as an experiment)? What do you say to that conor.hogan.2


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    #861
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Irish-Invented-Slang-Counterpunch/dp/1904859607

    Much like anything, it can be disputed.
    In the case of that tome, highly disputed. I've actually read it. I know... I can read. :eek: My humble? Square peg into round hole opinion masquerading as research.
    Anyway the Irish more so retained Catholicism as part of their identity rather than language whereas the Welsh and Italians to name but two kept both in a sense.
    IIRC the Welsh are either C of E or methodist? Wales is like the US in miniature, loads of Christian faiths slugging it out.

    In any case you have to ask why alone among the locals and the diaspora we dropped the language? I've no idea why myself. Maybe we feel deep down that having the language as a background noise better informs the languages we choose to express ourselves in? Someone like Jimmy Joyce tried to learn the language, but was put off by his teacher, one P Pearse - Yep that one - who spent the class JJ was in berating English. Yet Joyce writes in a sound filled way that an 8th century bard would appreciate and plug right into. Hell within a generation of learning to read and write we had the huge liathroidi to actually come up with a "better" version of Latin. I kid thee not gentle reader.

    TBH I always found Pearse to be both a great and woeful example of our race. A perfect example of "'tis and it 'tisnt". It's an aspect of us I damn near venerate. The "oh yea I can speak Irish" census data sums up well. Keeps the rest of the world and us guessing. :D Sammy Beckett another example of an Irish person that was... well.. fcuking with language. In his case French and we've had feck all of that since Strongbow got invited in. Waiting for Godot is his translation of En attendant Godot the French original. He won a nobel prize on the back of it.

    For me that internal confusion of who we are, what we're supposed to be and how that comes out in the mix is a large part of our strength and unease about what it is to us. For me this small debate exemplifies that.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #862
    WillieFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭WillieFlynn


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    The majority back compulsion.
    The importance of the language. (historical and cultural to name just two)
    More languages make it easier to learn more languages.
    (You can study English, Irish, French and German if you want I know people who have done it the more the better)
    Going through your arguments:

    Just because the majority back something doesn't always make it correct, if the majority in a country backed racial discrimination would it be OK?

    While I do grasp the historical and cultural importance of Irish. However the sad fact is that for a lot of people it is questionable how big a part of their day to day culture it is, just look at how few use it daily.

    The argument that more languages makes it easy to learn other languages, is fine, except it is not an argument to study a specific language.
    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    But the people against it have one argument and that is "100% choice" which as we all know is just simply not how school works.
    That is simply not true.

    I didn't want to do Irish for my LC, because I had eight other subjects to study.

    The workload got so high, I would go into class and say I didn't have time to do my homework or study... Which apart from not being an nice thing to have to do, it was disruptive to the rest of the class. You can force students to attend class but not to study. If I could go back in time I would have effectively dropped out of the class much sooner.


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    #863
    WillieFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭WillieFlynn


    One other point on the cultural reason for keeping Irish compulsory, why isn't the same argument extended to the two other Irish languages (Irish sign language and Cant / Gammon).

    Personally I found it much easier and more interesting to learn Irish Sign Language than Irish.


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    #864
    WillieFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭WillieFlynn


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    Surface or not the majority do not want to make it optional. FG backtracked hard on that when they realized this.
    It was more like a very vocal minority particularly in gaeltacht areas, rather than the majority voicing their views.


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    #865
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    WillieFlynn wrote: »
    Going through your arguments:

    Just because the majority back something doesn't always make it correct, if the majority in a country backed racial discrimination would it be OK?

    While I do grasp the historical and cultural importance of Irish. However the sad fact is that for a lot of people it is questionable how big a part of their day to day culture it is, just look at how few use it daily.

    The argument that more languages makes it easy to learn other languages, is fine, except it is not an argument to study a specific language.

    That is simply not true.

    I didn't want to do Irish for my LC, because I had eight other subjects to study.

    The workload got so high, I would go into class and say I didn't have time to do my homework or study... Which apart from not being an nice thing to have to do, it was disruptive to the rest of the class. You can force students to attend class but not to study. If I could go back in time I would have effectively dropped out of the class much sooner.

    The majority backing it is important as it is "harming" few or no people and it has been compulsory for 70+ years without much problems with it so in this case it is a fair case of democracy in action and some people will not like democracy if it does not gel with them in certain circumstances.

    Again this is not really a debate on the importance of Irish as to one person it has no importance and to another it has high importance.

    You did 9 subjects? What subjects were they and why? just curious and also this is far far from the norm.
    WillieFlynn wrote: »
    It was more like a very vocal minority particularly in gaeltacht areas, rather than the majority voicing their views.

    The Gaeltacht population is tiny and fairly spread out so it is a lot more than these who are speaking out and in favor of keeping it compulsory.
    WillieFlynn wrote: »
    One other point on the cultural reason for keeping Irish compulsory, why isn't the same argument extended to the two other Irish languages (Irish sign language and Cant / Gammon).

    Personally I found it much easier and more interesting to learn Irish Sign Language than Irish.

    I would love for sign language to be taught and less so Cant/Gammon but it being a creole/dialect it would not be highly useful except cultural reasons which are important too.


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    #866
    carfiosaoorl
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭carfiosaoorl


    Is it not already optional? My brother dropped it for leaving cert so did my niece.


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    #867
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    @Wibbs - None of that is relevant and only the first half is coherent.
    carfiosaoorl wrote: »
    Is it not already optional? My brother dropped it for leaving cert so did my niece.

    Exemptions are very easy to get.


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    #868
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    @Wibbs - None of that is relevant and only the first half is coherent.
    Thank God/universe/fates. I was concerned you may have found it coherent and that would have reflected badly on me.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #869
    WillieFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭WillieFlynn


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    The majority backing it is important as it is "harming" few or no people and it has been compulsory for 70+ years without much problems with it so in this case it is a fair case of democracy in action and some people will not like democracy if it does not gel with them in certain circumstances.
    In my case it forced me to do 9 subjects for the leaving and was possibly the reason I just missed out on my first choice of university course
    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    You did 9 subjects? What subjects were they and why? just curious and also this is far far from the norm.
    I wasn't particularly good at languages so I did Irish, English and French at lower level (passed them all).
    And then as I wanted to do a high points course Electronic Engineering in UCC (ended up doing it in UCD) I needed to do six honors subjects:
    Maths, Physics, applied maths, chemistry, geography and accounting (outside of school).


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    #870
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Thank God/universe/fates. I was concerned you may have found it coherent and that would have reflected badly on me.

    Nice to see you have resorted to Trolling rather than making any coherent actual points. Luckily you mod all the forums I find boring or irrelevant.
    WillieFlynn wrote: »
    In my case it force me to do 9 subjects for the leaving and was possibly the reason I just missed out on my first choice of university course

    I wasn't particularly good at languages so I did Irish, English and French at lower level (passed them all).
    And then as I wanted to do a high points course Electronic Engineering in UCC (ended up doing it in UCD) I needed to do six honors subjects:
    Maths, Physics, applied maths, chemistry, geography and accounting (outside of school).

    Why did you do French if you were bad at languages?

    English, Irish, Maths, Physics, applied maths, chemistry, geography and accounting would have left you with 6 honors why did you choose to do French?


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    #871
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    Nice this see you have resorted to Trolling rather than making any coherent actual points. Luckily you mod all the forums I find boring or irrelevant.
    Ooooh get her. :D FYI, calling someone on a debate isn't trolling. It's... you know... debate. At this point you've pretty much exhausted the circular logic meme so this retort of yours is hardly unexpected. However I was hoping for and expecting better.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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