Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

conor.hogan.2

I should back up my opinion?
How would I back up my opinion? My opinion is it should remain compulsory much like yours is to make it optional.

Why? I like Irish I can not back that up with any evidence.

What exactly do you want me to back up?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I should back up my opinion?
How would I back up my opinion? My opinion is it should remain compulsory much like yours is to make it optional.

Why? I like Irish I can not back that up with any evidence.

What exactly do you want me to back up?

Conor, read the ****ing thing and stop making me waste posts.

I asked why you think this. Based on what. I have made numerous argumentd as to why I feel optional is better. The student can tailor theior education to what the feel is more important for them. They can get more points studying seven subjects they are good at, if they have trouble with Irish, rather then six and one they don't fell competent with. More grades in courses they feel are relevant to what they want to do. All said and said and said again.

And ignored, becaue for you, it's more important that they show up and learn a cupla focal.

For the last time, why?

What are you so aganist a student who wants to make a different choice?

Now, before you hit the repy button actually read what I have written again and then answer the two questions in bold.

conor.hogan.2

Students have choice. Just not 100% choice.

If a student is not good at languages or has a learning disability they can get an exemption. If they love languages they can do Irish, English, French and German.

Seachmall

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Students have choice. Just not 100% choice.

In relation to Irish they have no (0%) choice, which is the point of the thread.

If a student is not good at languages or has a learning disability they can get an exemption. If they love languages they can do Irish, English, French and German.

And if they don't love languages (more specifically Irish) ...?

conor.hogan.2

Seachmall wrote: »

In relation to Irish they have no (0%) choice, which is the point of the thread.

And if they don't love languages (more specifically Irish) ...?

If they have an actual reason they can get an exemption, otherwise you are right they currently have 0% choice.

If they don't like Irish and they have no actual proper reason to not do it then they have to do it.

Hence me saying they do not have 100% choice. This is school not adult life.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Students have choice. Just not 100% choice.

If a student is not good at languages or has a learning disability they can get an exemption. If they love languages they can do Irish, English, French and German.

And if they don't love Irish and English they can choose to....

Anad how dows limiting their choice increase their chances of getting the course they want in univesity?

Seachmall

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

If they have an actual reason they can get an exemption, otherwise you are right they currently have 0% choice.

If they don't like Irish and they have no actual proper reason to not do it then they have to do it.

In this case you are defining what a "proper" or "actual" reason is.

One might suggest it is an arbitrary reason, not one based on rational argument, and a case of special pleading. Not something to base such important exams on.

conor.hogan.2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

And if they don't love Irish and English they can choose to....

Anad how dows limiting their choice increase their chances of getting the course they want in univesity?

See above.

You do not get 100% choice in school or life. Students often are given a "choose 1 subject from column a,b,c and d option" for which subjects they choose in school because of fixed capacity classrooms, demand and trying to give them a broad education.

Getting to University is not a problem for anyone who does not like Irish you just have to pass it at OL then use your 6 other subjects to get your LC points.

Seachmall wrote: »

In this case you are defining what a "proper" or "actual" reason is.

One might suggest it is an arbitrary reason, not one based on rational argument, and a case of special pleading. Not something to base such important exams on.

No, the department of Education define the reasons for exemptions afaik.
As I said above you just have to do and pass Irish at OL.
You have 6 other subjects on which you can use to get your LC points.

Doing Irish does not affect a students ability to do as well as they can in the LC nor does it affect their ability to get their college course.

Dietmar Hamann

Should be compulsory as without learning Irish they may as well not be Irish. Its part of who we are. Without it we are nobody. Comes in handy when you are abroad and you want to slag other nationalities without them understanding!!

Seachmall

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

No, the department of Education define the reasons for exemptions afaik.

But we're not asking the Department of Education, we're asking you.

It's assumed that your involvement in the discussion means you are open to discuss it. Your points thus far supporting your position have been inadequate in that they've either been countered or exposed as fallacious.

As I said above you just have to do and pass Irish at OL.
You have 6 other subjects on which you can use to get your LC points.

Doing Irish does not affect a students ability to do as well as they can in the LC nor does it affect their ability to get their college course.

You also have to study it, which takes time from other subjects which puts your chances of getting your course in jeopardy.

If you don't study your teacher has the right to assign more homework or give you detention, which also takes time from other subjects.

It also adds unnecessary stress at an already stressful time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

See above.

You do not get 100% choice in school or life. Students often are given a "choose 1 subject from column a,b,c and d option" for which subjects they choose in school because of fixed capacity classrooms, demand and trying to give them a broad education.

Getting to University is not a problem for anyone who does not like Irish you just have to pass it at OL then use your 6 other subjects to get your LC points.



No, the department of Education define the reasons for exemptions afaik.
As I said above you just have to do and pass Irish at OL.
You have 6 other subjects on which you can use to get your LC points.

Doing Irish does not affect a students ability to do as well as they can in the LC nor does it affect their ability to get their college course.

I give up.

Your two best reasons are
1 - Because the populist govenremnt says so
2 - So students learn that they do not have a choice in life so screw them.

I'm out. You've answered my questions, but with attitudes like this, no wonder you have bored and talented students wasteing their time on the leaving cert.

Iwasfrozen

d_max wrote: »

Should be compulsory as without learning Irish they may as well not be Irish. Its part of who we are. Without it we are nobody. Comes in handy when you are abroad and you want to slag other nationalities without them understanding!!

No. It is part of who you are. Not we since obviously I don't agree with you. Are you calling all the irish people who can't speak irish nobodies? That'll make you popular...

So does pig latin. Quick make it mandatory!

conor.hogan.2

My opinion is you have to study Irish unless you get an exemption, otherwise you have no reason not to study it.

"but I don't like it" is not a valid reason imo.

If a student can not pass OL Irish without "jeopardizing" getting into their desired course then I would strongly say college is not for them. Take a look at the OL paper Des Bishop passed it with less time than a student studying it for 13 years has.

I don't know how long you have been out of education but Homework takes very little time away from a good student and it helps them pass the subject. A potential college student should have no problem doing 6 subjects very well and OL Irish to a pass level.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

no wonder you have bored and talented students wasteing their time on the leaving cert.

Yes very talented if they can not pass OL Irish after 14 years of study.

You are the one going against the status quo and your only reason is "choice" when I have stated many times they have choice in their other 5+ subjects.

Dietmar Hamann

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. It is part of who you are. Not we since obviously I don't agree with you. Are you calling all the irish people who can't speak irish nobodies? That'll make you popular...

So does pig latin. Quick make it mandatory!

It is part of who WE are as it is the first official language of Ireland under article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf) if people stop studying it then as a result it will die out. As you need 8+ in a class to run the class for leaving cert in many schools. Some schools will not be able to offer Irish to the students if only one or two want to take it as a subject. Anyway the subject is a joke at the moment anybody could get a decent result in HL when you look at the amount of work there is. In the english course you have to learn nearly 3 times as much. Plus the aural simple.

It is also part of who we are as before any of us were born this is the language of our forefathers. Before the English language was in this country everybody spoke Irish. Meaning your ancestors spoke it:eek:

IloveConverse

Irish should continue to be compulsory as it's clearly part of who we are.

I recently read that Polish is now the second most spoken language in this country, while Irish falls to third. This stark fact should bring out a sense of urgency that we are losing the very language that is part of our culture, who we are. Instead it procures a sense of accomplishment- What will happen when we lose the Irish language?

So for those who rant about 'not needing Irish, it's a waste of time- can't speak it anywhere else anyways, hateee Irish so much'- The Census certainly brought out the real attitude towards losing our native tongue, that is an utter contrast to this.

Declan Lynch wrote in the last Sunday Independent about the lies portrayed in the Census- that '1.77 million people said that they were able to speak the Irish language'. Seems as if those who rant about the language being 'a waste of time', are somewhat secretly embarrassed about the downward spiral that Irish is caught in- and ultimately their standard of the language that made them who they are.

Gaeilge go deo!

kowloon

To sum up the argument of conor.hogan.2:

Because.

The argument used by parents when they couldn't be bothered answering a young child's questions.

Perhaps we should treat our Leaving Cert students with a little more respect.
Their Leaving Cert affects their future, anything that uses up time and effort clearly does affect study time for other subjects.

If no effort is required to pass ordinary level Irish perhaps students should take a LC Irish paper in transition year or the year before (the Junior Cert, as many are proposing). If they want to improve on this they can take it again in sixth year .

conor.hogan.2

The majority back compulsion.
The importance of the language. (historical and cultural to name just two)
More languages make it easier to learn more languages.
(You can study English, Irish, French and German if you want I know people who have done it the more the better)

None of these I have mentioned, I just said "because".

But the people against it have one argument and that is "100% choice" which as we all know is just simply not how school works.

hooradiation

IloveConverse wrote: »

Irish should continue to be compulsory as it's clearly part of who we are.

One could argue the same of the GAA.
Should that hobby be made compulsory too lest our 'Irishness' be diminished?

IloveConverse wrote: »

I recently read that Polish is now the second most spoken language in this country, while Irish falls to third. This stark fact should bring out a sense of urgency that we are losing the very language that is part of our culture, who we are. Instead it procures a sense of accomplishment- What will happen when we lose the Irish language?

Nothing, seeing as we'll all be able to communicate with eachother just fine using English.

IloveConverse wrote: »

So for those who rant about 'not needing Irish, it's a waste of time- can't speak it anywhere else anyways, hateee Irish so much'- The Census certainly brought out the real attitude towards losing our native tongue, that is an utter contrast to this.

The real attitude is that when it comes to the state of the Irish language we're pathological liars?

IloveConverse wrote: »

Gaeilge go deo!

Gaeilge can go die in a fucking ditch for all I care.

kowloon

IloveConverse wrote: »

Irish should continue to be compulsory as it's clearly part of who we are.I recently read that Polish is now the second most spoken language in this country, while Irish falls to third. This stark fact should bring out a sense of urgency that we are losing the very language that is part of our culture, who we are. Instead it procures a sense of accomplishment- What will happen when we lose the Irish language?

Not everyone feels that way. Who someone is is their own concern, not something for the arrogant to dictate.

Many of those Polish people are now citizens. Does that worry you? If you want to take the citizenship as a whole, Polish is very much a part of 'our' culture.

Eoin_

a few things

1) Teaching: The entire way irish is taught should be changed. I entered secondary level education with no french and 8 years of irish. By third year i was already more competent in french. Something is seiously wrong with the way irish is taught. for starters they need to stop presuming that everyone has the same level (or any level) of irish entering secondary and start with the basics.

2) Teachers: Teachers are being removed from people that really need them, yet C.S.P.E. is still a thing.... why is this happening! It is a useless subject. Leave Irish for now, at least until we get our priorities straight.

3) Culture: To those that say that Irish is an essential part of our culture, I would like to suggest that it is not the only part of it. Instead of forcing the thousands of students who are in pass to study a unuseable level of irish, why cant they learn another factor of irish culture like music or dancing. These things could be much more useful than the language since music, for example, can be appriciated by, enjoyed by and communicated to everyone in the world, regardless of their academic ability or formal irish education.

fkt

IloveConverse wrote: »

So for those who rant about 'not needing Irish, it's a waste of time- can't speak it anywhere else anyways, hateee Irish so much'- The Census certainly brought out the real attitude towards losing our native tongue, that is an utter contrast to this.

The majority of people cannot speak it effectively in a way where they can have a converasation in it. I don't have statistical evidence for this, but lets's use our common sense. It's pretty evident.

Even if everyone of us could speak it - We don't use it everyday. Therefore, why should the taxpayer fund it? I have no problem if someone likes Irish - that's your personal choice, the same way I like football and holidays - I don't expect the taxpayer to pay for my holidays - because it does not benefit wider society.

Unfortnately, I think the majority of people have fear of accepting that their pipe dream of everyone of us using Irish everyday will never be reality and are afraid to move on. It's really sad, it's holding the country back

kowloon

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

None of these I have mentioned, I just said "because".

But the people against it have one argument and that is "100% choice" which as we all know is just simply not how school works.

You do seem to argue that people have to do Irish because that's the way it is, tough. Hence my summary of your argument in a single word. A word lazy parents use when their children ask for answers.

Choice in the Leaving Cert was my argument, not choice in all school.

conor.hogan.2

kowloon wrote: »

Choice in the Leaving Cert was my argument, not choice in all school.

Choosing 5+ of your subjects is not choice enough? You do not have to like or do well in Irish you just have to pass it at OL.

You have a lot of choice. I did not like Poetry but it had to be done in school. It may be easy to ridicule but this is school so "because" is a legitimate reason.

IloveConverse

hooradiation wrote: »

One could argue the same of the GAA.
Should that hobby be made compulsory too lest our 'Irishness' be diminished?

Language is obviously a vital tool. 'Language is not only a vehicle for the expression of thoughts, perceptions, sentiments, and values characteristic of a community; it also represents a fundamental expression of social identity.' The earliest forms of Irish can be seen on ogham stones from as early as the 4th century, conveying the fact that our language originated during prehistoric times and as such is much more substantial- Whilst GAA is a pastime on the other hand. The GAA was founded in 1884.


Nothing, seeing as we'll all be able to communicate with eachother just fine using English.

Yes of course.We could do this and let our language die. Most Germans can speak their own native tongue and English at the same time just fine- Why don't we see them trying the banish the German language from the Abitur (LC)? We should be able to do the same with Gaeilge and English. We need to keep Irish as it's part of our culture.



The real attitude is that when it comes to the state of the Irish language we're pathological liars?

' Pathological Liar- A person who tells lies frequently, with no rational motive for doing so.' The majority of 1.77 million people had a reason for doing so- it's embarrassment that we cannot speak our own language.

Iwasfrozen

d_max wrote: »

It is part of who WE are as it is the first official language of Ireland under article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf) if people stop studying it then as a result it will die out. As you need 8+ in a class to run the class for leaving cert in many schools. Some schools will not be able to offer Irish to the students if only one or two want to take it as a subject. Anyway the subject is a joke at the moment anybody could get a decent result in HL when you look at the amount of work there is. In the english course you have to learn nearly 3 times as much. Plus the aural simple.

It is also part of who we are as before any of us were born this is the language of our forefathers. Before the English language was in this country everybody spoke Irish. Meaning your ancestors spoke it:eek:

While I recognise it's legal position that does not in anyway affect my view of the language. You said it was a part of who we are. Since I don't agree with you it is not a part of who we are. It is a part of who you are.

And you say that if people are no longer compelled to study the language in secondary school after it will die out. Why? People will still study it just not as many. And it will still have the few thousand native and non native speakers it has now. The language will not die just because people who have no interest in studying it are allowed to choose not too. Besides the education system exists to serve the student not the other way around. If irish does die because no one wants to speak it then so be it. A language that cannot maintain itself deserves to die.

As for not everyone gettign to study irish. True if it is made optional then some schools will not be able to offer it but that's true of any optional subject. I wanted to do chemistry for my leaving but I couldn't because my school didn't offer it. That's not a argument for chemistry to be mandatory.

Irish is not simple! Maybe for a native speaker but irish students learn irish as a foreign language. Comparing it to english is stupid because that's our native language. You should be comparing it to the german or french papers. Of which irish is much more difficult.

As a parting I can do you one better then that. My grandfather was a fluent speaker. Non native he learned it in his later years. Changed his name and everything.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eoin_ wrote: »

a few things

1) Teaching: The entire way irish is taught should be changed. I entered secondary level education with no french and 8 years of irish. By third year i was already more competent in french. Something is seiously wrong with the way irish is taught. for starters they need to stop presuming that everyone has the same level (or any level) of irish entering secondary and start with the basics.

Not disagreeing with you there.

2) Teachers: Teachers are being removed from people that really need them, yet C.S.P.E. is still a thing.... why is this happening! It is a useless subject. Leave Irish for now, at least until we get our priorities straight.

Surely CSPE is one of the more practical elements of the education? I would prefer to see more politically, socially and civiclaly aware kids than people who have no idwea wat is going on.

You really can't call it "useless" and then say Irish is more important.

3) Culture: To those that say that Irish is an essential part of our culture, I would like to suggest that it is not the only part of it. Instead of forcing the thousands of students who are in pass to study a unuseable level of irish, why cant they learn another factor of irish culture like music or dancing. These things could be much more useful than the language since music, for example, can be appriciated by, enjoyed by and communicated to everyone in the world, regardless of their academic ability or formal irish education.

Fair point, I think most do. I plaed GAA and hurling as a kid (althought it was nothing to do with culture or bollox like that, it was because I enjoyed them).

kowloon

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Choosing 5+ of your subjects is not choice enough? You do not have to like or do well in Irish you just have to pass it at OL.

You have a lot of choice. I did not like Poetry but it had to be done in school. It may be easy to ridicule but this is school so "because" is a legitimate reason.

There should be no limit to choice until there is a legitimate reason. Once again, I'm not talking about all school.

Why is 'because' a legitimate reason? Because?

IloveConverse

kowloon wrote: »

Not everyone feels that way. Who someone is is their own concern, not something for the arrogant to dictate.

Many of those Polish people are now citizens. Does that worry you? If you want to take the citizenship as a whole, Polish is very much a part of 'our' culture.

Not at all. It's worrying that a language that's been with us since the 4th century is behind one that became prevalent in recent decades.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Choosing 5+ of your subjects is not choice enough? You do not have to like or do well in Irish you just have to pass it at OL.

You have a lot of choice. I did not like Poetry but it had to be done in school. It may be easy to ridicule but this is school so "because" is a legitimate reason.

Can I put that in my sig? Please?!

conor.hogan.2

kowloon wrote: »

Why is 'because' a legitimate reason? Because?

Because that is what successive governments and successive generations of voters have agreed upon making and keeping it compulsory.

The reason it was made compulsory in the first place was to prevent the language from dieing as it was in fast decline and the revival movement was good but not enough considering we got full independence (which was drawn out over many many years).

(Perhaps History should be made compulsory too?)