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Miss Universe has a little secret...

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    #392
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    2) I don't think Transgendered people should be allowed to compete in the Olympics or any other athletic sporting competition. Why? It's difficult to quantify the exact advantage a M2F transgender person would have by living with 10 times the normal female testosterone level for many years (an anabolic steroid) before starting on female hormones. Plus the differently shaped body to begin with, especially hip width.

    But non-athletic games, snooker, darts, etc. No problem, in fact I can't see why these are segregated in the first place.

    as has been stated already, there are no advantages, and a large amount of sports organizations allow transgender women to compete after having been on hormone treatment for a certain length of time. from my own personal experience, the changes in musculature have been absolutely astonishing, and I've only been on hormone treatment for about a year.

    this video shows how much of a difference hormone treatment makes:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlk3nNya93M

    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    3) Surgery: To a point I can understand why breast augmentation, whether that is by hormones or implants, is important to TGs.....but should the state pay for my GF to have breast surgery if she feels low self-esteem because she has small breasts?

    the state won't pay for breast implants for transgender women anyway, so it's a moot point.
    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    I think I'd prefer the smell/taste/feel of a real one - don't think this can be adequately recreated by surgery.

    no, it's not recreated by surgery, but hormones. most sexual differentiation in humans is from different hormones, and that includes things like how men and women smell different, the difference in how the skin feels, etc. downstairs, a transgender woman smells like a woman.

    that's not to say you should change your preferences or anything, I'm just trying to inform people of the reality. I guess some people might think that a transgender woman's intimate regions might smell like a guy's, but that's not the case at all.


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    #393
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    Links234 wrote: »
    oh, and some of you might find this interesting, 2 years ago, a transgender man won the "Mr. Leather" competition

    ah links, for gods sake- a jockstrap competition? and you cant take ME seriously?

    the video does an ample job though of demonstrating what i just pointed out about the media- all they want is the next something that's different. check out what the reporter says to the guy at the end of the video-

    "so you're the tri-fecta, you're trans, you're in a wheelchair, AND you're from New Mexico!!"...

    give me strength ffs!


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    #394
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    I don't think Transgendered people should be allowed to compete in the Olympics or any other athletic sporting competition. Why? It's difficult to quantify the exact advantage a M2F transgender person would have by living with 10 times the normal female testosterone level for many years (an anabolic steroid) before starting on female hormones.
    Your source for this? Because my information (both subjective and through the very fact that trans women are allowed to compete in athletic sports) is that after 2 years HRT, there is no difference between trans and cis women.
    Plus the differently shaped body to begin with, especially hip width.
    And what difference would that make, especially considering that trans women fall within the variation that exists within cis women?

    If anything, the higher centre of gravity that, on average, trans women have over cis women would put trans women at a disadvantage.
    Surgery: To a point I can understand why breast augmentation, whether that is by hormones or implants, is important to TGs.....but should the state pay for my GF to have breast surgery if she feels low self-esteem because she has small breasts?
    Should the state pay for breast surgery if she essentially ends up with no breasts to the extent that she is constantly mistaken for a man, with all the consequences of possible violent attack that entails?
    As for genital realignment surgery, I'm confused by posters here stating that gender is hardwired into the brain, whereas sex is physical. Surely then it is a minor issue whether a woman has a penis or vagina in her pants.
    About as minor as whether a man has a penis or a vagina in his pants. So if you were born with a vagina, you wouldn't be asking the state for help?! Or, if you were born with huge man-boobs, big enough that you were constantly mistaken for a woman, you wouldn't be asking the state for help?!
    Also given that 99.9% of her interactions as a woman with other people will be clothed
    ... and what about the 0.1% - is she not allowed to have a sex life as a woman? Does your disregard for her human rights go that far?
    As for finding them attractive, yeah superficially they can look as hot as most other females, although the usual lack of curvy hips is missing. At the end of the day I'd still prefer a genetically born female (XX)
    Then you are going to have to pay for expensive genetic testing on your girlfriends, as there are some XY people who naturally develop into women (google "xy women" for more information - e.g. CAIS).
    a proper vagina; (and apologies for being crude) I think I'd prefer the smell/taste/feel of a real one - don't think this can be adequately recreated by surgery.
    So you've "sampled" a surgically-altered vagina and found it to be lacking relative to a non-altered one?

    I presume you ask all of your girlfriends whether they have ever had surgery on their vagina?


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    #395
    44leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    For men who do not understand the plight of this condition. You are a man, you are different to a women not only in body but in mind. You know how you are, I am not going to go into details.

    Now picture you yourself with the mind you have now, but having a vagina instead of a penis.

    ( I would play with myself all day) just thought i would get that out of the way before someone really witty posts it)


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    #396
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,369 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Been reading through the thread. I dont see what problem TBH people would have with someone doing whatever they want with their own lives if they arent happy. If someone wants to change sex to be happy then thats their own business.
    On the other hand though i thought it was interesting to hear someone say that they would have no problem having sex with a transgender person as they would regard them as a woman now. To me they would still be a man even with surgery but maybe thats just me and i think if someone is going to have a relationship with a straight man then he should be told that the person was born a man.
    I watched the video of the guys transformation that a poster put up there earlier in the thread. Seems strange that if he felt he always wanted to be a woman why he was so muscular at the start. You have to lift heavy to get that big.


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    #397
    BlueSmoker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭BlueSmoker


    I have being reading this thread on and off since yesterday, I made a decision not to enter into the debate, well cause basically some of the comments, jumping to assumptions and uneducated view points, made me very depressed and generally I avoid people and situations like that .

    Intially I thought OMG if that is a cross sections and this is how people feel, what hope has anyone got in come to terms with a very natural condition of being transgendered (I'm talking about the XX and XY, or binary system of Male and Female, naturally that doesn't exsist, common maybe but not natural as other posters stated in their links.) Then I watched the facts come through and fell asleep after read this thread at about 2am, and I fell a sleep alot more positive, and woke up early this morning feeling equally positive.

    I would like to first thank all the posters who posted, those facts, and what they understood about transgendered people, secondly I appreciate that being transgendered to some people is very difficult to understand and except/or even care about, like wise if I don't have to deal with a group of people, that identify as something different to me or know someone who I care about who identifies with a group, I generally either make assumptions or generally not care either way. But I am always open minded to changing those assumptions and lack of caring, because myself, life ,the people I hold dear will always allow me to explore this, also I love understand things to do with people, I really like hearing peoples stories. So Thank you everyone.

    Lastly and my reason for posting this, was I just wanted to let people know that, the Irish Government do not pay for anything cosmetic, when it comes to a transgendered client, hormones and possibly the reconstruction surgery, and the doctor visits, are paid for by the HSE.

    Boob Jobs, laser treatment, plastic surgery and laser eye treatments are paid by the transgendered client.

    Again thank you to the posters, who posted the facts and understanding of the complexes life of a transgendered person, you have lifted my spirits :D


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    #398
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    44leto wrote: »
    For men who do not understand the plight of this condition. You are a man, you are different to a women not only in body but in mind. You know how you are, I am not going to go into details.

    Now picture you yourself with the mind you have now, but having a vagina instead of a penis.

    ( I would play with myself all day) just thought i would get that out of the way before someone really witty posts it)

    now picture yourself black,
    now picture yourself jewish,
    now picture yourself in a wheelchair,
    now picture yourself as a traveller,
    now picture yourself as unemployed,
    now picture yourself as homeless.


    now picture yourself trying to get along in the world and minding your own business.

    you cant, because everybody has their own agenda and wants to "educate you" and make you "aware" that you never bother to think about them because you're too busy thinking about things like providing for your family and work and things that you have on your own agenda.


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    #399
    BlueSmoker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭BlueSmoker


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Been reading through the thread. I dont see what problem TBH people would have with someone doing whatever they want with their own lives if they arent happy. If someone wants to change sex to be happy then thats their own business.
    On the other hand though i thought it was interesting to hear someone say that they would have no problem having sex with a transgender person as they would regard them as a woman now. To me they would still be a man even with surgery but maybe thats just me and i think if someone is going to have a relationship with a straight man then he should be told that the person was born a man.
    I watched the video of the guys transformation that a poster put up there earlier in the thread. Seems strange that if he felt he always wanted to be a woman why he was so muscular at the start. You have to lift heavy to get that big.

    I completely agree with this point, I have told both men and women I have initially start a relationship with what I was, it only seemed fair, it caused complications but in all cases we broke up for the same reasons many man or woman would break up over, (two where a 4 and a 5 year relationships) So basically it was a sexual relationship, I would choose for ease the label bi-sexual, but as a transgendered person I don't see the person I love, as a gender, I fall for them beyond their gender, I end up loving them for who they are. :)


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    #400
    44leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    xsiborg wrote: »
    now picture yourself black,
    now picture yourself jewish,
    now picture yourself in a wheelchair,
    now picture yourself as a traveller,
    now picture yourself as unemployed,
    now picture yourself as homeless.


    now picture yourself trying to get along in the world and minding your own business.

    you cant, because everybody has their own agenda and wants to "educate you" and make you "aware" that you never bother to think about them because you're too busy thinking about things like providing for your family and work and things that you have on your own agenda.

    And so, can I not have a sense of empathy and feel the plight of others and want things better for them. Do you not feel that?, if not that is OK I am just glad I do not live in your world.


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    #401
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I watched the video of the guys transformation that a poster put up there earlier in the thread. Seems strange that if he felt he always wanted to be a woman why he was so muscular at the start. You have to lift heavy to get that big.

    Because often times, people who are transgender try to repress things, and go to great lengths to bury how their truly feel. she wouldn't be the first transgender girl to do something super-masculine while in denial.


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    #402
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    Your source for this? Because my information (both subjective and through the very fact that trans women are allowed to compete in athletic sports) is that after 2 years HRT, there is no difference between trans and cis women.
    Hormone balance is pretty fluid, even amongst one gender, and many conditions can push the balance one way or another. It is also a bit simplistic to say average female sex hormone levels = female effects. There are many other hormones and feedback loops in operation. Levels of SHBG would have a great impact too.
    If you were an elite female athlete lining up against another who had doped for 10years.....but it's ok now - she hasn't for two years and her testosterone levels are back to normal now - how would you feel?

    I don't know the sporting organisations that allow transgendered woman (not saying they don't exist) but the elite athletic ones don't (IAAF/IOC).
    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    And what difference would that make, especially considering that trans women fall within the variation that exists within cis women?

    If anything, the higher centre of gravity that, on average, trans women have over cis women would put trans women at a disadvantage.
    Sprinting is one
    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    Should the state pay for breast surgery if she essentially ends up with no breasts to the extent that she is constantly mistaken for a man, with all the consequences of possible violent attack that entails?
    The state should endeavour to make sure NOBODY is attacked based on their physical appearance, sexual preference or gender identity. That should be the priority - prevention/education > cure
    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    About as minor as whether a man has a penis or a vagina in his pants. So if you were born with a vagina, you wouldn't be asking the state for help?! Or, if you were born with huge man-boobs, big enough that you were constantly mistaken for a woman, you wouldn't be asking the state for help?!
    ... and what about the 0.1% - is she not allowed to have a sex life as a woman? Does your disregard for her human rights go that far?
    I made the observation that many here have said that gender isn't a physical thing, more of a mental one. Therefore if a TG feels like a female (with a penis), she is still going to feel like one after, so this would indicate the importance of genital realignment surgery is overstated.
    Having a penis isn't an illness and it is a little insulting to say you can't have a sex life with one, and not funding it isn't an affront to your human rights, not ALLOWING it on the other hand is.
    Also in a way, by lending so much importance to these matters, you are basically reducing the female gender down to breasts and genitals. Something the general public are accused of when discussing TG rights.
    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    Then you are going to have to pay for expensive genetic testing on your girlfriends, as there are some XY people who naturally develop into women (google "xy women" for more information - e.g. CAIS).
    So you've "sampled" a surgically-altered vagina and found it to be lacking relative to a non-altered one?
    First of all, extremely rare and secondly often missing secondary sex characteristics.
    And no, I haven't sampled a surgically-altered vagina (hence the "I think") but I would be surprised if it matches the normal smell/taste of female secretions.
    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    I presume you ask all of your girlfriends whether they have ever had surgery on their vagina?
    No I haven't - not sure whether it would be taken as a compliment or an insult:eek:


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    #403
    BlueSmoker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭BlueSmoker


    44leto wrote: »
    And so, can I not have a sense of empathy and feel the plight of others and want things better for them. Do you not feel that?, if not that is OK I am just glad I do not live in your world.


    Really, I appericated what your doing, but there is no point, let him believe what he likes, the chances are I will never meet him, never have this argumented with him, and it probably won't even come up if it ever happen. and to improve his odds, 2:4.500,000. So you have better chances to win the lotto, and he is discussion from his view point as well so you got about 10:4,500,000 chances of him getting your view point, so REALLY does it matter, thanks though. :)


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    #404
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    xsiborg wrote: »
    do you REALLY think Links the media are doing your cause any favors? they're not, and neither has this attention seeking idiot. she may be trans, but that doesnt exempt her from being an idiot at the same time!

    No, I don't think the media are doing us any favours, which is why I think it's important that people challenge things so that discriminatory rules or laws can be overturned, and precedent and/or legal framework is in place to prevent further discrimination, regardless of what the media might say or public opinion may be. oh snap! that's exactly what Jenna Talackova did :pac:

    I don't really know why you find what she did such an offense, and I can't fathom why you expect me to share your outrage either, but when you're repeatedly calling her an idiot and an attention seeker, it's just coming across like barely masked contempt for her as a person, and when you say this:
    she shouldn't have tried entering in the first place.

    I don't think there's much left to say. "how dare that uppity tranny try to do anything! :mad:"


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    #405
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    44leto wrote: »
    And so, can I not have a sense of empathy and feel the plight of others and want things better for them. Do you not feel that?, if not that is OK I am just glad I do not live in your world.


    ah stop it Leto with that nonsense for gods sake, you know well what i meant, there's no need for you too to take up the "yiz are all bigots" placard.

    i feel the plight of others too, and when you mentioned earlier in the thread comparing CF disease to transgender disorder, i said i wouldn't pull you up on it as i understood where you were coming from, in that it was genetics and a person couldn't help it.

    the reason i mention this is because i happen to have two brothers with the condition and even i cannot speak to how debilitating it is, so i do empathise with those who have it, but the difference is that you dont see me waiting outside After Hours with the CF batphone as such any time the issue of CF is mentioned and i have to get myself in there and purport to be an authority on the subject and "raising awareness and understanding", etc.

    i want a better world for everybody Leto, but yknow what i have to accept- is that the world doesnt work nor bend to my will, i have to work within it, and i can only give my energy to so much, and now i just get the feeling that i have given enough of my energy to this thread. i tried to empathise with other posters but the usual "you wouldnt be intelligent enough to understand" nonsense always seeps through as posters wade in with terminology you'd need a degree in biology and a masters in the english language to understand or be able to duscuss anything with them on their level apparently.

    anyway, if they want to live with their head in the clouds and expect people to be as interested in their condition as they are, then i for one dont want to live in their dreamers world, as there are plenty more causes more deseving of my time and energy.


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    #406
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    xsiborg wrote: »
    ah stop it Leto with that nonsense for gods sake, you know well what i meant, there's no need for you too to take up the "yiz are all bigots" placard.

    i feel the plight of others too, and when you mentioned earlier in the thread comparing CF disease to transgender disorder, i said i wouldn't pull you up on it as i understood where you were coming from, in that it was genetics and a person couldn't help it.

    the reason i mention this is because i happen to have two brothers with the condition and even i cannot speak to how debilitating it is, so i do empathise with those who have it, but the difference is that you dont see me waiting outside After Hours with the CF batphone as such any time the issue of CF is mentioned and i have to get myself in there and purport to be an authority on the subject and "raising awareness and understanding", etc.

    i want a better world for everybody Leto, but yknow what i have to accept- is that the world doesnt work nor bend to my will, i have to work within it, and i can only give my energy to so much, and now i just get the feeling that i have given enough of my energy to this thread. i tried to empathise with other posters but the usual "you wouldnt be intelligent enough to understand" nonsense always seeps through as posters wade in with terminology you'd need a degree in biology and a masters in the english language to understand or be able to duscuss anything with them on their level apparently.

    anyway, if they want to live with their head in the clouds and expect people to be as interested in their condition as they are, then i for one dont want to live in their dreamers world, as there are plenty more causes more deseving of my time and energy.

    Sorry to hear that your brothers have CF - it's an awful illness. I'm really baffled as to why you think raising awareness for things like CF or the plight of transgenders is a bad thing :confused: Can you please explain?

    It's important to raise awareness for medical issues that affect so many people. Do you give out about people raising awareness and doing charity work for other conditions too?


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    #407
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Sorry to hear that your brothers have CF - it's an awful illness. I'm really baffled as to why you think raising awareness for things like CF or the plight of transgenders is a bad thing :confused: Can you please explain?

    It's important to raise awareness for medical issues that affect so many people. Do you give out about people raising awareness and doing charity work for other conditions too?

    jaffa i dont think raising awareness of anything is a bad thing, but in order to do that your audience has to be receptive to the idea first, and in my opinion this is better done through talking to people face to face, in a non-confrontational manner, explain if they seem interested. if people are not receptive, then you take a hint. this is only MY opinion though. i try to do what i can on a one-to-one level, i find it has more of an impact than someone flicking through the paper and reading the story, then they've it forgotten five minutes later, yknow?

    as for do i giive out about people doing charity work for other conditions too- again jaffa i give out about the methods they use. i dont have a problem with anyone trying to generate interest in an issue, but this "raising awareness" ideal is for me anyway just a way of saying "lets shove it up their noses, lets show them stuffy non-enlightened types" if you get me? im only too well aware of the issues transgendered people face, it's just that their agenda is not that high on my list of priorities, i have other things too that need my "awareness" so to speak.

    this shouldnt be construed as ignorance or bigotry on my part, and yet by some people it is!


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    #408
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Mod

    Trolling/baiting = ban.

    Please report any posts you find offensive.


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    #409
    BlueSmoker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭BlueSmoker


    I think most people here are actually reacting to a small amount of responses here, and generally I am delighted as a trangendered person to see that, but also in fairness that person "who didn't understand or care" about transgendered issues has a right not to, I'm prity sure I don't understand or care about his issues in life, unless we went on a date and I fancied him, then we have an issue :) and it is up to me and discuss it, it should never be an issue for anyone else, it should be own are own issue. :)


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    #410
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    BlueSmoker wrote: »
    Really, I appericated what your doing, but there is no point, let him believe what he likes, the chances are I will never meet him, never have this argumented with him, and it probably won't even come up if it ever happen. and to improve his odds, 2:4.500,000. So you have better chances to win the lotto, and he is discussion from his view point as well so you got about 10:4,500,000 chances of him getting your view point, so REALLY does it matter, thanks though. :)

    BlueSmoker i would be more than happy to meet you and to discuss anything with you, and Leto or anyone else on boards.ie for that matter, and i DO understand where Leto is coming from, and Links, and yourself, but please dont assume that i get my kicks from trying to have a discussion in a discussion forum and having my posts being purposely misunderstood and twisted by posters who ought to know better!

    yknow we all the time hear it from the LGBT "community" how closed minded "the rest of us" are, and how its no fun and the suffering they go through. well what do they think the rest of us are at? having a party? they dont think we have our own struggles and problems? of course we dont, because im white and straight of course, sure why would any straight white male commit suicide eh? what problems would they have?

    honestly, there are some posters in here that would do well to get over themselves and realise that other people have more to be worrying about than their own personal agendas.


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    #411
    BlueSmoker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭BlueSmoker


    xsiborg wrote: »
    BlueSmoker i would be more than happy to meet you and to discuss anything with you, and Leto or anyone else on boards.ie for that matter, and i DO understand where Leto is coming from, and Links, and yourself, but please dont assume that i get my kicks from trying to have a discussion in a discussion forum and having my posts being purposely misunderstood and twisted by posters who ought to know better!

    yknow we all the time hear it from the LGBT "community" how closed minded "the rest of us" are, and how its no fun and the suffering they go through. well what do they think the rest of us are at? having a party? they dont think we have our own struggles and problems? of course we dont, because im white and straight of course, sure why would any straight white male commit suicide eh? what problems would they have?

    honestly, there are some posters in here that would do well to get over themselves and realise that other people have more to be worrying about than their own personal agendas.


    See this is what I see every day, everyone is edging for reality based on the shows they watch, no one is concern about their neighbour, or their friend or family, I have friends who except me straight away, others that need time, it's my time and I will give them time, they always come back with questions (once they walked away for ever) no one has really yet (but I might be wrong)

    I was just observering this thead and posters say some people being a bit negative about being transgendered. Their negative comments are then same as in the 1930 -1980 putting their sister or daughters into the "maglaned socieities" Anyone who did that needs to consider what peoples lives our worth and how much they believe how you should consider how much you are you with out carering about other. :) Should watch TV3 NOW. go for it :D


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    #412
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    Einhard wrote: »
    Thanks for conceding the point. Where else but in the head would one conceive of one's gender?

    I have to say that the limited understanding that some people in this thread have of sexuality is pretty shocking. Our minds are far more important that our physical forms in determining gender.

    You should talk to some of the extreme feminists on here about that. According to them men and women's minds are identical at birth are only different due to social conditioning.


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    #413
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    You should talk to some of the extreme feminists on here about that. According to them men and women's minds are identical at birth are only different due to social conditioning.

    I've never seen anyone say that in any of the many threads on gender in After Hours.

    I've seen lots of people say that gender is based on a mix of biology, psychology and outside influence, but that sounds a bit boring.


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    #414
    BlueSmoker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭BlueSmoker


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    You should talk to some of the extreme feminists on here about that. According to them men and women's minds are identical at birth are only different due to social conditioning.

    Interesting, lets see your facts :)


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    #415
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    xsiborg wrote: »
    im only too well aware of the issues transgendered people face, it's just that their agenda is not that high on my list of priorities, i have other things too that need my "awareness" so to speak.

    then why dedicate so much time to a thread like this?

    this isn't about any sort of "personal agenda" or anything, and of course everyone else has their own problems, that goes without saying. it's an issue of when people are coming into a thread like this, and spewing all kinds of utterly wrong nonsense about how trans people are sick or freaks or mentally ill, and of course I'm going to counter that.

    I think it's pretty ridiculous for someone to say "oh well I've got my own issues/agenda/whatever" when they're repeatedly concerning themselves with trans issues. you don't go into a thread you're not interested in, just to say you're not interested, do you?


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    #416
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    You should talk to some of the extreme feminists on here about that. According to them men and women's minds are identical at birth are only different due to social conditioning.

    I don't think I've ever seen any extreme feminists* on boards, and besides, there's a big difference in saying that people aren't hard-wired from birth for certain aptitudes and behaviors, and saying that there's no difference in male and female brains from birth.

    *though what After Hours considered an extreme feminist is probably very different to what I'd consider one.


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    #417
    batistuta9
    Registered Users Posts: 8,105 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    Links234 wrote: »
    *sigh*

    are you seriously entertaining the idea that she somehow masterminded a situation where she knew she was going to get disqualified, just so she could cause a media stir? or as you put it earlier, just to troll? I don't even know how to respond to that on a serious level...

    you cannot seriously think that she went and entered the competition with the thought that no one would bat an eyelid

    she knew rightly what was going to happen & that it would cause a stir


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    #418
    44leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    batistuta9 wrote: »
    you cannot seriously think that she went and entered the competition with the thought that no one would bat an eyelid

    she knew rightly what was going to happen & that it would cause a stir

    And so what, when anybody goes against an accepted norm, that will cause a stir. This entrant feels she is a woman and she has the right to enter. What is wrong with that?


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    #419
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    batistuta9 wrote: »
    you cannot seriously think that she went and entered the competition with the thought that no one would bat an eyelid

    she knew rightly what was going to happen & that it would cause a stir

    yeah, I can think that, 'cos there's plenty of things where trans women can enter contests/competitions/whatever and nobody bats an eyelid. I had been invited to play women's roller derby before. *shrug*

    and so what if she happened to know this would cause a stir? are people supposed to shy away from doing anything that might cause a stir? I don't understand that mentality at all!


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    #420
    batistuta9
    Registered Users Posts: 8,105 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    44leto wrote: »
    And so what, when anybody goes against an accepted norm, that will cause a stir. This entrant feels she is a woman and she has the right to enter. What is wrong with that?

    did i say anything was wrong with it in that post; stop trying to see arguments about whether its wrong/right in posts where there not any

    the post i quoted seems to think that the person involved thought nothing would be made of the fact that entering a miss universe contest after being born male would not be an issue

    she knew trying to enter would cause a stir & gain a lot of media attention - anyone in their right mind would realise this - for whatever reason, her only personal vanity or maybe trying to bring more media to tg people


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  • Options
    #421
    EGAR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    batistuta9 wrote: »
    you cannot seriously think that she went and entered the competition with the thought that no one would bat an eyelid

    she knew rightly what was going to happen & that it would cause a stir

    Do you know her to jump to that conclusion?

    A *stir* should not have happened, and that is the whole point.


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