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Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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    #752
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Declan Lander wrote: »
    Rubbish and spin. You want the unfair points advantage above people who have no intrest or need whatsoever of Irish, and yet are forced to compulsorily compete with your fluent Irish. It should be optional after the Junior Cert. That's a decent compromise. If you want people to have any respect for Irish, a language most people have no need of, other than a cultural passtime/hobby, and you want it to thrive, stop shoving it down their throats.

    I am not fluent in Irish, I am not a native speaker, I hated Irish when I was in school and got a B2 in Ordinary level.:(

    As far as I am concerned, the vast majority of studens do not feel that anything is being shoved down their throats, from everything I have seen they feel that the language is taught badly, and so that is where I see the problem as being.
    You might see compulsion as being the problem, I don't.


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    #753
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,162 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Does. Not. Compute. If you went to Germany and discovered only 1 odd per cent spoke actual "German" fluently and daily would you think it their "national language"? I doubt it. At the very least you would think the society somewhat schizo and contradictory for thinking it thus.

    I think it is officially our national language constitutionally speaking. Its just not the native language for the vast majority anymore.


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    #754
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Does. Not. Compute. If you went to Germany and discovered only 1 odd per cent spoke actual "German" fluently and daily would you think it their "national language"? I doubt it. At the very least you would think the society somewhat schizo and contradictory for thinking it thus.
    Agreed. To a point. The point being where aspiration differs from the reality on the ground, over time.

    The salient fact is that after being compulsory since the foundation of the state a majority still can't speak it and that majority has grown since then. When we join the dots what does that tell us? The Irish people have voted with their feet.

    BTW CH are you a native or fluent speaker? Again, if not, why not?

    Irish is our national language, if facts do not compute you would want to check your brain. It is not used anywhere near as much as English and even Polish and possibly other languages on a daily basis but that is another matter entirely.

    I am neither native nor fluent (by my own standards). Why not? I only started to pay attention to Irish in 6th year and parts of college and since then have moved into Software which has taken most of my time and has it's own languages and terminology to learn and use. I still read and use my Irish often enough though.

    Are you a native or fluent Irish speaker, why or why not?

    I think Irish and other languages are taught badly and outside of a few cases I do not see students as having a problem with it's compulsion. There has been no campaigns to call for it to be made optional.


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    #755
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

    I think Irish and other languages are taught badly and outside of a few cases I do not see students as having a problem with it's compulsion. There has been no campaigns to call for it to be made optional.

    Of all languages taught in schools, I'd think only Irish is taught badly, as for French, I've been learning it for just 6 years, yet I can make a far more decent conversation in it. Irish: my written Irish is grand, oral - next to hopeless. That's a clear enough indication that it's badly taught, having been going to classes for 14 years.

    There havn't been any campaigns to make it optional, however there have been proposals by FG to make it optional, (finally). When that happenned a bunch of USI studnets organised a protest against it for some strange reason thinking that their rights to speak Irish were being threatened, which wasn't the case at all.


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    #756
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    My French is far worse than my Irish (well it was after school) even considering I did Irish for 6 more years.

    Languages are just taught badly in Irish schools imo. It should have less emphasis on rote learning.
    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    There havn't been any campaigns to make it optional, however there have been proposals by FG to make it optional, (finally). When that happenned a bunch of USI studnets organised a protest against it for some strange reason thinking that their rights to speak Irish were being threatened, which wasn't the case at all.

    That will likely never happen. Just another proposal they won't follow up on.


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    #757
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    My French is far worse than my Irish
    (well it was after school) even considering I did Irish for 6 more years.

    Then again that may just be a personal result. You might pick up on languages or you might ont.

    Languages are just taught badly in Irish schools imo. It should have less emphasis on rote learning.

    With Irish more emphasis has been put on the oral element of it - the oral's now worth 40% of the exam, when it used to be just 25%. This is both good and bad.

    Good - Less rote memorization.

    Bad - It's unfair to shy students who might find oral exams nerve racking and who just aren't good at prononciaton, talking in Irish to strangers etc - which at no fault of their own makes them fall down on more marks. Even when they were good at the written section they're forced to concentrate a lot more on the oral which they won't do well in regardless on how much they prepare for it. Oral exams are very nerve racking. Students should be given the option whether to count their oral at 25% or 40% as they know which element of the exam they're stronger at. It's fairer that way.


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    #758
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    I have learned more Irish and even French outside of school so I don't think it is a personal problem with me and languages.

    I know they have increased the oral - 40% oral and 10% aural but I still don't think that is enough personally. It is a language I think more emphasis should be on aural, oral and other things that you can't cram for. I think they should have increased the aural to 20% not decreased it.

    I have found every oral I did in school very accommodating to shyness and it is quite common from what I have heard for them to stop the tape and let you get relaxed if you are shy or nervous. Of course you can get a bad examiner.


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    #759
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    I have learned more Irish and even French outside of school so I don't think it is a personal problem with me and languages.

    I know they have increased the oral - 40% oral and 10% aural but I still don't think that is enough personally. It is a language I think more emphasis should be on aural, oral and other things that you can't cram for. I think they should have increased the aural to 20% not decreased it.

    I have found every oral I did in school very accommodating to shyness and it is quite common from what I have heard for them to stop the tape and let you get relaxed if you are shy or nervous. Of course you can get a bad examiner.

    The aural should be changed around a little bit - I've noticed that in most of my aurals (at least), they've used people with hard-to-understand Irish speakers - often Donegal one's whose many words are pronounced much differently and were much harder to determine. (not that I'm attacking Donegal accents), but I remember one aural test where a Donegal accent was used - he pronouced paipear (paper) as ''pepper'', which caught everyone in the class out. My teacher even said himself that it was a ridiculous thing to do - using difficult accents all the time, and that more eastern and southern Irish accents should be used, which I totally agree with. I don't mind the odd difficult accents in aurals, as there needs to be some sort of challenge to it, but using them 95% of the time is a different story.


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    #760
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,071 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I am not fluent in Irish, I am not a native speaker, I hated Irish when I was in school and got a B2 in Ordinary level.:(

    As far as I am concerned, the vast majority of studens do not feel that anything is being shoved down their throats, from everything I have seen they feel that the language is taught badly, and so that is where I see the problem as being.
    You might see compulsion as being the problem, I don't.

    So you think the average Iirsh student is happy to learn something that is badly taught. As has been said hundreds of times and then ignored by you, if they're happy, and it becomes optional it won't make any difference, now will it.
    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

    I think Irish and other languages are taught badly and outside of a few cases I do not see students as having a problem with it's compulsion. There has been no campaigns to call for it to be made optional.

    See above comment.
    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    I have learned more Irish and even French outside of school so I don't think it is a personal problem with me and languages.
    So, by your own admission, you learnt more when you didn't have to. QED.
    I know they have increased the oral - 40% oral and 10% aural but I still don't think that is enough personally. It is a language I think more emphasis should be on aural, oral and other things that you can't cram for. I think they should have increased the aural to 20% not decreased it.

    I have found every oral I did in school very accommodating to shyness and it is quite common from what I have heard for them to stop the tape and let you get relaxed if you are shy or nervous. Of course you can get a bad examiner.

    Would agree with you here, but it's not really relevant to the topic. It's should we make it optional, not how should we improve it?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #761
    RiseToTheTop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭RiseToTheTop


    If only the IMF made it mandatory for Irish to be cut from the Irish curriculum.

    A man can dream I guess....

    A man can dream.


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    #762
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    Irish is our national language, if facts do not compute you would want to check your brain. It is not used anywhere near as much as English and even Polish and possibly other languages on a daily basis but that is another matter entirely.
    You ask that I should check my brain yet don't see the contradiction inherent in your own position?
    Are you a native or fluent Irish speaker, why or why not?
    Nope. Why? Simply because beyond requiring some level of it for passing school exams it had pretty much zero relevance for me. It was always something "out there", a part of the cultural landscape, but a small one.
    I think Irish and other languages are taught badly and outside of a few cases I do not see students as having a problem with it's compulsion. There has been no campaigns to call for it to be made optional.
    And likely never will be, because those kids in school it affects have little political clout and their parents couldn't be arsed/figure it's part of being educated here.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #763
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,466 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    What strikes me is the power that language fascists have.

    If we had geography fascists going around telling people that they have to learn geography if they want to feel a cultural affinity to where they live, and that geography should be taught around the dinner table, and in summer colleges, people would laugh in their faces.

    Why do people put up with this from people who really like a language?


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    #764
    Zaffy
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭Zaffy


    I know I was exempt from Irish in school, so this doesn't affect me very much, but these are my opinions on the subject.

    Firstly, I would have liked to learn Irish. I arrived in Ireland in 1st year, and was told I could either go to the library for my irish period, or I could sit in the class and lose my exemption. Now, if I could have kept the exemption meaning I didn't need to stress over it for LC, then I'd have definitely attended classes just so I have a few words.

    Anyway, the problem is, it's being taught like English. People are having to give essays on poetry, books, etc, etc, when they don't have the sufficient vocabulary how to. The amount of people I've spoken to who have said 'I've learnt off these essays, and if something on these doesn't come up, I'm screwed'. How about we teach it like a more advanced French, German, Spanish, etc. Teach it as a speaking language. Teach it as something they can use. They will never write out an essay on an irish book unless they go to university for the subject of Irish, and this is just turning people off the subject.

    Teach it well enough that people can have a conversation in it, for a decade or two at least. Once a lot of the country is ABLE to speak, understand, comprehend irish, THEN, we can adjust the system to take into account that more people can speak Irish.


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    #765
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    The aural should be changed around a little bit - I've noticed that in most of my aurals (at least), they've used people with hard-to-understand Irish speakers - often Donegal one's whose many words are pronounced much differently and were much harder to determine....and that more eastern and southern Irish accents should be used
    I don't think this is very sensible. If you are supposed to speak a language, then you should be able to understand the speech of different speakers. Secondly there is no Eastern accent, as there is no native Irish speaking community in the east, outside the one in Meath, but the people there don't speak Leinster Irish (which is extinct).


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    #766
    omg a kitty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 447 ✭✭omg a kitty


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    My French is far worse than my Irish (well it was after school) even considering I did Irish for 6 more years.

    That's funny cos I'm in 4th year now and my French was better than my Irish by the end of 2nd year. I started French in 1st year and Irish 8 years before that.

    What's with all this literature bull in Higher Level Irish? Now I'm normally good with languages and sciences but I hated the subject.
    There were 4 people who did Higher Irish in my year of 65 last year. 1 of them went to an all Irish primary school and 2 of them were non Irish nationals.
    I tried it for Christmas in 3rd year and got an F. So I dropped down to Ordinary and got an A in mocks and JC.

    That's exactly why, as said here many times, Irish should be 2 subjects. Why is my maximum points for Irish in LC 60 rather than 100 because I wasn't born in the Gaeltacht?
    Trust me, I love the language and I would absolutely love to be a able to speak it but the way they're trying to teach me is almost making me look like a proper idiot who can't learn f all

    And BTW, I'm eligible for an exemption but I still chose to learn it


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    #767
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    If you choose to do Irish you choose to do the Literature also, simple.

    Irish is compulsory and there has never been popular opinion to change that.


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    #768
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,071 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    I learned more French, more Maths and more physics too. Very selective of you to ignore me saying I learned more French even considering I spent less time learning French than Irish.

    I think the optional debate is pointless because nowhere near a majority have even hinted at wanting it to be optional.

    I didn't preselect anything. You specifcially mentioend Irish and French, and you specifically said out of school.

    You STILL have NOT come up with a good reason as to WHY compulsion is better than optional. You've porvided poor arguements, contradcited yourself, avoided the question and then turned inaccurate accusations on my arguments in order to hide the fact that you have no logical argument for your statement.

    Irish is compulsory and there has never been popular opinion to change that.
    Yes. So they get educated in Ireland and learn whatever curriculum is set for Ireland and get on with it.

    How do you expect to see opposition if you think said oppostion should be banned in the first place...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #769
    omg a kitty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 447 ✭✭omg a kitty


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    If you choose to do Irish you choose to do the Literature also, simple.
    Irish is compulsory and there has never been popular opinion to change that.

    Look around you..:confused:

    I want to learn the language, I'd love to learn the literature if I knew the bloody language. Teach me the language first -.- then teach me literature

    It should be compulsory up until Junior Cert
    But it's definetly time for a major reform in the way it's taught


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    #770
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    omg a kitty wrote: »
    Look around you..:confused:

    If you do actually look around you would be surprised at just how little support there seems to be for making Irish optional.

    There is a facebook group, 'Make Irish Optional', they have about 100 members(The one to keep Irish compulsory got over 10'000) and there is a petition to make Irish optional, they got 40 signatures so far(the petition to keep Irish compulsory has around 20'000)

    Seems a bit one sided really.


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    #771
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    deise go deo wrote: »
    If you do actually look around you would be surprised at just how little support there seems to be for making Irish optional.

    There is a facebook group, 'Make Irish Optional', they have about 100 members(The one to keep Irish compulsory got over 10'000) and there is a petition to make Irish optional, they got 40 signatures so far(the petition to keep Irish compulsory has around 20'000)

    Seems a bit one sided really.
    That's because there aren't any vested interests in making irish optional...

    I don't get why it's relevent anyway. Since when did doing the right need to be popular?


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    #772
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    deise go deo wrote: »
    If you do actually look around you would be surprised at just how little support there seems to be for making Irish optional.

    There is a facebook group, 'Make Irish Optional', they have about 100 members(The one to keep Irish compulsory got over 10'000) and there is a petition to make Irish optional, they got 40 signatures so far(the petition to keep Irish compulsory has around 20'000)

    Seems a bit one sided really.

    Sadly some people are blind to this. People see the "majority" on boards and think it matches reality whereas it does not.


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    #773
    Honk_If_You Hate Dubs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭Honk_If_You Hate Dubs


    deise go deo wrote: »
    If you do actually look around you would be surprised at just how little support there seems to be for making Irish optional.

    There is a facebook group, 'Make Irish Optional', they have about 100 members(The one to keep Irish compulsory got over 10'000) and there is a petition to make Irish optional, they got 40 signatures so far(the petition to keep Irish compulsory has around 20'000)

    Seems a bit one sided really.

    You really just need to accept that English a better, more elegant and sophisticated language.

    English is the world's premier language; Irish is a speck of shi-t on the tapestry in comparison.

    Millions of people possess a burning desire to learn English, it is the language of opportunity.

    Irish struggles to survive in its own backyard.

    What's the Irish word for futility?

    You probably don't know, or more than likely Irish doesn't even have a word for it.

    Lets settle for futiliocht. :pac:


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    #774
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,071 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    deise go deo wrote: »
    If you do actually look around you would be surprised at just how little support there seems to be for making Irish optional.

    There is a facebook group, 'Make Irish Optional', they have about 100 members(The one to keep Irish compulsory got over 10'000) and there is a petition to make Irish optional, they got 40 signatures so far(the petition to keep Irish compulsory has around 20'000)

    Seems a bit one sided really.

    How about if we did a poll of all 15 year olds in the country, and let's say the figure was strongly against compulsion, would you be happy to turn around and say , "okay, fair enough, I accept that it being optional."

    Fact is, the most popular decision is not always the right one.

    And no one has STILL come up with a valid and researched argument for compulsory leaveing sert subjects, Irish as well as others.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #775
    eoins23456
    Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭eoins23456


    Id like to see the opinion of leaving certs that have two months to go till the leaving whether it should be optional or not


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    #776
    MonkeyTennis
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭MonkeyTennis


    I think they should start Irish later and concentrate on getting literacy and numeracy up to scratch.

    Perhaps Irish language could be part of a wider Irish Language and Culture in secondary and in that case I would keep it as compulsory

    Irish Literature should be left til Uni.

    I liked Irish but can totally see why it was hated at school.


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    #777
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,022 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    MonkeyTennis wrote: »
    I think they should start Irish later and concentrate on getting literacy and numeracy up to scratch.
    It's easier to pick up languages when you're younger, though, whereas numeric ability seems to come at a slightly later age, no?


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    #778
    omg a kitty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 447 ✭✭omg a kitty


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    Sadly some people are blind to this. People see the "majority" on boards and think it matches reality whereas it does not.

    I love the way a bunch of people who has no idea what it's like to try and learn Irish in 2012 is topping the polls ;)

    I never said make it completely optional, I said it's definitely time for a major reform.

    Or you can leave at as it is and suffocate the language until complete extinction because it's the popular opinion of people who sit at home saying it's patriotism and it's part of our culture.

    Yes, it is indeed part of our culture but since when is being ignorant and telling us to shut up and suck it up the right thing to do? I'll admit it is the popular opinion in the real world right now but is it right? (Quote from Ikky :))

    If there was ever a poll, I would vote for reform in the way it's taught rather than making it optional.


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    #779
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Honk_If_You Hate Dubs wrote: »
    You really just need to accept that English a better, more elegant and sophisticated language.
    How is English more elegant and sophisticated? How does one measure relative sophistication and elegance between languages?
    Honk_If_You Hate Dubs wrote: »
    What's the Irish word for futility?
    Gan éifeacht.
    or
    Gan bhunús.

    In general it is silly to compare Irish with English. Virtually every language "fails" when put against English, except Chinese, Spanish, e.t.c.

    It should be seen for what it is, a small, culturally rich language. I mean this for both sides of debate. Small, culturally interesting pursuits do not need to be compulsory.


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    #780
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    omg a kitty wrote: »
    If there was ever a poll, I would vote for reform in the way it's taught rather than making it optional.

    So we agree. This is happening though, slowly but it is happening because people want reform in general but not many people want to make it optional.


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    #781
    MonkeyTennis
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭MonkeyTennis


    Ficheall wrote: »
    It's easier to pick up languages when you're younger, though, whereas numeric ability seems to come at a slightly later age, no?

    Children can learn languages more easily up to about the age of 6 but (and Im well open to correction here) I think thats if they are immersed in that language.

    My own daughter is bilingual as she was surrounded by 2 languages all her life


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