Myths about rape victims

Ickle Magoo · 08-04-2012 02:27PM

The_Minister wrote: »

If you look at the article, while it later refers to 'predators', for a significant proportion of it's length it refers to 'men'.

Men look for this, men do that - it's hardly belittling the argument being made to wish that it uses terms like 'rapist' instead.

The article states:

A group of rapists and date rapists in
prison were interviewed on what they look for in a potential victim
and here are some interesting facts:

1] The first thing men look for..

I thought it was fairly obvious that it was referring to the kind of men that were interviewed ie who were rapists...although adding "these" before men would have removed any possible ambiguity - it's a face-book paste-job, it's hardly the Irish Times or Rape Crises Centre. It's probably had more views thanks to being posted here to be ridiculed than if it had just been ignored in the first place.

ETA: On a side-note, I think this is another reason why rape education needs to be directed at the perpetrators rather than holding women accountable as guardians of both their own safety and the reputations of men in general...

The_Minister · 08-04-2012 03:27PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

ETA: On a side-note, I think this is another reason why rape education needs to be directed at the perpetrators rather than holding women accountable as guardians of both their own safety and the reputations of men in general...

I think the new English ads are wonderful for doing that - for making lads think about what they are doing and how it could be seen from outside.

BarackPyjama · 08-04-2012 03:28PM

Who are the ads targeted at as a matter of interest? All men?

Dudess · 08-04-2012 03:36PM

Don't know. But I guess it's something you can add to your "Look! The world is against men! Women have it so easy!" list - a world whose most powerful person is... a man.

BarackPyjama · 08-04-2012 03:40PM

Dudess wrote: »

Don't know. But I guess it's something you can add to your "Look! The world is against men! Women have it so easy!" list - a world whose most powerful person is... a man.

Doesn't answer my question. Advertising to all men, telling them not to be rapists is utter misandry. Just thought I'd point that out.

saa · 08-04-2012 03:45PM

Yeah I think the myth that its a stranger who jumps out of a dark alley is easier to peddle, always being told don't walk home alone, nothing ever happened to me in public its funny because now I feel quite safe!

Even there is a lot more talk now about children being abused out in the community by someone they know but the issue of it happening in the home or by a family friend etc. hasn't been addressed really so attitudes are a bit strange.

You'd be surprised how many people try and patch things up with an abuser and a victim in a family because they should just "let things go" and "stop causing the family trouble".

Dudess · 08-04-2012 03:49PM

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Doesn't answer my question. Advertising to all men, telling them not to be rapists is utter misandry. Just thought I'd point that out.

I did answer your question. And the ad campaign is hardly misandric - it's just highlighting a reality. What is a fairer way of going about it so? I agree it's the man who's the predator on this ad, but go on... come up with a way that would be less misandric in your eyes.
An ad focuses on the issue of rape - and you actually still have to look for a way to point out how the world is so terrible for men...? That seems to be your raison d'etre on Boards. It's quite a pity really...

jocmilt · 08-04-2012 04:49PM

jay-me wrote: »

Can't say I have noticed an abundance in demonising victims of rape on the contrary in fact! It has always been the Rapist who has been, and rightly so, demonised. In saying that I well believe many people who suffer attacks are afraid to report it due to the process involved and the social stigma they percieve will be inevitable. But I for one can say whenever I have read of someone coming forward and not witholding their names demonising them would be the last thing I would do and would think most rational people would be the same!

On the other hand I think the Gardai have to be thorough in their investigations so as not to bring in an innocent person based on allegations. But this should be a double edged sword, and the person who has come forward to make the allegations should be treated with upmost respect and tenderness.

What appears to be annoying some people and motivating them to claim 'victimisation' is that there is a reasonable burden of proof required in alleged rape cases. I perceive this as part of a conditioning of the legal system and an attempt to lower the burden of proof concerning incidents of sexual assault. "If a woman says she was raped then she was raped and if you don't agree you are a bad judge, an incompetent police officer or a rapist/man yourself". I have been warned already on this thread not to discuss false rape allegations, so I will not but you may infer that attitude both here and elsewhere in society, especially in courts, is consciously or unconsciously attempting to drive a coach and fours over the concept of innocence before conviction, in cases where women give oral evidence of rape against a man.

The_Minister · 08-04-2012 04:56PM

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Doesn't answer my question. Advertising to all men, telling them not to be rapists is utter misandry. Just thought I'd point that out.

I'd be fairly sensitive to misandry and I think the levels of it in society are underestimated, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with a way to spread the essential and important message that a man should give serious consideration as to whether what he's doing is ok and wanted without advertising to all men, because it's a message we'd like all men to hear.

Why?

Because we are trying to slightly alter how these matters are perceived and considered and you do that by trying to target all of society.
Furthermore, to be blunt, the vast majority of rapists/sex assaulters are men.

I don't see it as misandry, no more than a Stay Safe campaign aimed at women would be misogenistic.

jocmilt · 08-04-2012 05:03PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think this is another reason why rape education needs to be directed at the perpetrators rather than holding women accountable as guardians of both their own safety and the reputations of men in general.

Cultivation of the absence of adult agency and self-infantilisation in women is not a solution to rape. If women refuse to accept their own security if first and foremost their own duty then they will continue to suffer the consequences in those incidents of rape which do occur in 'dark alleys' and indeed in many involving aquaintances. Conditioning the entire male population, of which only a tiny minority are rapists and unlikely to be affected by any 'education', is a ridiculous excuse for brainwashing men into the feminist myths about rape. Are women strong independent people or little children? Act how you want to be treated.

Dudess · 08-04-2012 05:07PM

The_Minister wrote: »

I'd be fairly sensitive to misandry and I think the levels of it in society are underestimated

Much of the time by men, and unfortunately a few of the men who are sensitive to it, instead of trying to do something about it, pour their energy into bitching at women for it existing.

The_Minister · 08-04-2012 05:09PM

jocmilt wrote: »

Cultivation of the absence of adult agency and self-infantilisation in women is not a solution to rape. If women refuse to accept their own security if first and foremost their own duty then they will continue to suffer the consequences in those incidents of rape which do occur in 'dark alleys' and indeed in many involving aquaintances. Conditioning the entire male population, of which only a tiny minority are rapists and unlikely to be affected by any 'education', is a ridiculous excuse for brainwashing men into the feminist myths about rape. Are women strong independent people or little children? Act how you want to be treated.

*Head-desk*

You don't get it do you?
Most rapes occur by people the girl knows. Not in dark alleys.

Why?
Part of it is that many guys convince themselves it's ok - I know this is an unpopular opinion but I'd bet that most rapists don't identify as rapists. Making them see what they are doing as rape could realistically stop quite a number of rapes.
Not violent ones maybe, but the majority aren't that violent.

Set up a different thread and I'll debate for a while with you, but you're looking at this from the wrong angle.

Dudess · 08-04-2012 05:11PM

What, sigh, feminist myths (derp) about rape?

The_Minister · 08-04-2012 05:13PM

Dudess wrote: »

Much of the time by men, and unfortunately a few of the men who are sensitive to it, instead of trying to do something about it, pour their energy into bitching at women for it existing.

If you look at early feminist writing it tends to be extreme and insane, and then calm down (mostly) as the ideas and theories became more acceptable and mainstream.

The fight against misandry is in the same early steps - most of those who have noticed that there is a problem only do so because of negative personal experience which makes them bitter - in time the percentage who continually throw the toys out of the pram will diminish.

jocmilt · 08-04-2012 05:17PM

The_Minister wrote: »

*Head-desk*

You don't get it do you?
Most rapes occur by people the girl knows. Not in dark alleys.

Why?
Part of it is that many guys convince themselves it's ok - I know this is an unpopular opinion but I'd bet that most rapists don't identify as rapists. Making them see what they are doing as rape could realistically stop quite a number of rapes.
Not violent ones maybe, but the majority aren't that violent.

Set up a different thread and I'll debate for a while with you, but you're looking at this from the wrong angle.

I get it, I get it. Yes, I know most rape is aquaintance rape but I wouldn't agree with your simplistic analysis that the "guys convince themselves it's ok". Individual cases vary a great deal and involve many factors like drug and alcohol abuse, mental health issues and more. In my experience men and women who rape know it is wrong, they just don't care. How would education stop those people? It wouldn't. My concern for the stranger rape "dark alley" victims is that they are being told their safety if everyone elses concern. It isn't.

BarackPyjama · 08-04-2012 05:24PM

The_Minister wrote: »

I don't see it as misandry, no more than a Stay Safe campaign aimed at women would be misogenistic.

It is misandry. Pure and simple. You're talking about a campaign targeting men asking them not to be rapists. Sickening really.

The_Minister · 08-04-2012 05:29PM

jocmilt wrote: »

I get it, I get it. Yes, I know most rape is aquaintance rape but I wouldn't agree with your simplistic analysis that the "guys convince themselves it's ok". Individual cases vary a great deal and involve many factors like drug and alcohol abuse, mental health issues and more. In my experience men and women who rape know it is wrong, they just don't care. How would education stop those people? It wouldn't.

Well no, if someone knows something is wrong and does it anyway then eduction won't stop them (unless, perhaps, it alters their perception of the scale of the wrong).
But I do think a lack of understanding of their actions plays a strong role in many rapes.

jocmilt wrote: »

My concern for the stranger rape "dark alley" victims is that they are being told their safety if everyone elses concern. It isn't.

Helen of Troy could stand starkers in an alley for three days and if no one else comes along she won't be raped.

Rape is a two-way process and women are well-aware of the dangers they face - now some emphasis is being turned to the other factor in the equation.

The_Minister · 08-04-2012 05:31PM

BarackPyjama wrote: »

It is misandry. Pure and simple. You're talking about a campaign targeting men asking them not to be rapists. Sickening really.

It doesn't say all men are rapists.

It's targeting men who find themselves in a certain situation - I don't think the ad implies that all men would or wll rape.

howsyourtusk · 08-04-2012 05:31PM

The_Minister wrote: »

I'd be fairly sensitive to misandry and I think the levels of it in society are underestimated, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with a way to spread the essential and important message that a man should give serious consideration as to whether what he's doing is ok and wanted without advertising to all men, because it's a message we'd like all men to hear.

Why?

Because we are trying to slightly alter how these matters are perceived and considered and you do that by trying to target all of society.
Furthermore, to be blunt, the vast majority of rapists/sex assaulters are men.

I don't see it as misandry, no more than a Stay Safe campaign aimed at women would be misogenistic.

Exactly.

Let's put it another way, I want to have anti-racism campaign following on from the Luis Suarez/John Terry incidents. Do I target all football fans? Or do I seek out those who are racist or potentially racist? I do the former because to even attempt to do the latter is ridiculous. And not one person would find offence with it either. Why is it different for an anti-rape campaign?

howsyourtusk · 08-04-2012 05:33PM

jocmilt wrote: »

I get it, I get it. Yes, I know most rape is aquaintance rape but I wouldn't agree with your simplistic analysis that the "guys convince themselves it's ok". Individual cases vary a great deal and involve many factors like drug and alcohol abuse, mental health issues and more. In my experience men and women who rape know it is wrong, they just don't care. How would education stop those people? It wouldn't. My concern for the stranger rape "dark alley" victims is that they are being told their safety if everyone elses concern. It isn't.

And your argument disintegrates when you consider the state of sex education in this country. I'm 27, at no point during school or university was consent ever mentioned in a sex education scenario. I'm putting it to you that there are men or boys out there who simply do not think it is wrong to have sex with a girl who has not consented.

Dudess · 08-04-2012 05:44PM

BarackPyjama wrote: »

It is misandry. Pure and simple. You're talking about a campaign targeting men asking them not to be rapists. Sickening really.

It isn't misandry. Pure and simple. What again would be the alternative? Or would you prefer not to think about that and instead search the web for ways in which you can find misandry (often imagined) and blame women? You honestly think white, western, heterosexual men have a terrible time. It's... hilarious.

jocmilt · 08-04-2012 06:01PM

The_Minister wrote: »

Well no, if someone knows something is wrong and does it anyway then eduction won't stop them (unless, perhaps, it alters their perception of the scale of the wrong).
But I do think a lack of understanding of their actions plays a strong role in many rapes.

Helen of Troy could stand starkers in an alley for three days and if no one else comes along she won't be raped.

Rape is a two-way process and women are well-aware of the dangers they face - now some emphasis is being turned to the other factor in the equation.

She could stand outside Oliver Bond flats with a gold bar for a lifetime and if nobody comes along she won't be robbed or she could leave her car unlocked in Ballyfermot for the weekend and if nobody comes along it won't be robbed. But would it be wise of her to do any of the above? Or would it be wise to advise her to stand on her right to safety and act irresponsibly anyway. Feel the common sense but do it anyway!

I think we agree that there are some, I would say most if not all, rapists who know what they are doing is wrong. A sociopath (4% of the population) won't give a damn about right or wrong, nor will someone with mental illness, personality disorder, or a substance problem. People who rape are not 'nice people' who just don't know they are doing wrong. They just don't give a crap, except for being caught. Without any statistics to back me up I am of the opinion most rapists are narcissists/sociopaths. That's just my experience/opinion.

Wibbs · 08-04-2012 06:04PM

BarackPyjama let's dial back the misandry please. Only warning. Thank you.

jocmilt · 08-04-2012 06:11PM

howsyourtusk wrote: »

And your argument disintegrates when you consider the state of sex education in this country. I'm 27, at no point during school or university was consent ever mentioned in a sex education scenario. I'm putting it to you that there are men or boys out there who simply do not think it is wrong to have sex with a girl who has not consented.

I wonder do people shoplift because they are unclear about the principle of ownership? Do we need to educate the entire population to see ownership of property in a new way to stop the small minority who shoplift? Would it stop the shoplifters who don't give a crap about who owns what they want?

We needn't become like the wicked security guard who suspects everyone of shoplifting, like some wicked women think all men are rapists. Neither should we think the shoplifters need to be educated out of their wicked ways.

Ownership is not an issue for shoplifters. Consent is not an issue for rapists.

Giselle · 08-04-2012 06:55PM

jocmilt wrote: »

Consent is not an issue for rapists.

I think you have to leave open the possibility that some rapists (especially of the acquaintance variety) do not always see their actions in terms of rape.

A guy who's had a girl flirt with him, maybe had some kissing and fondling, and who might be pushy when a girl expresses reservation, won't frame what he does as rape.

He'll preserve his self-image as a good guy by maybe admitting he pushed it a bit, but he's going to counter that with commuters like 'she led me on' she 'needed persuading' and that sort of thing. Rape is often a crime of opportunity, and a girl in a compromised, ambigious situation, is in danger from this kind of self justifying thinking.

People who do this, and I know they exist, need telling that its rape. Not chancing their arm, not convincing the girl, rape.

They aren't all eagle eyed predators with their game plan laid out in advance.

Stargazer7 · 08-04-2012 07:41PM

Stargazer7 wrote: »

I had to share this somewhere before I burst a blood vessel. An Indian coworker shared this on facebook. Granted it is facebook so should generally be taken with a pinch of salt but it just irritated me so much! I find it so utterly offensive to women and just generally full of misinformation.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=377931975581034&set=p.377931975581034&type=1

Does anyone not find the misinformation and sexism in this post ridiculous though? I mean it infers only women are affected - not true, it infers women with certain hairstyles and clothes are more likely targets - not true and it also reinforces this kind of stranger danger idea whereas we know rapists are more likely to be someone you know.

I am all for general safety tips but the post is hysterical, full of myths and overly forceful. Granted it is just a facebook post but we are talking about myths in society here, not published papers by psychologists/sociologists.

UDP · 08-04-2012 07:49PM

Rape is an awful crime.

I think the biggest problem is that it is very difficult to prove rape has occurred in many situations and as awful as it sounds the case has to proceed with the defendant being innocent until proven otherwise.

While it can be proved that sexual intercourse took place and that rough sexual intercourse took place ultimately without hard evidence consent comes down to one person's word against another.

The gardai definitely need to set clear policies on how rape accusations should be handled - step by step. They may already have this in place though, I don't know.

I do understand to a certain degree that gardai have to ask an accuser what happened multiple times to be sure that they are definitely dealing with a rape because often when someone is arrested it spreads around the place very quickly and the defendant is often labeled as a rapist even if they are released after questioning. Im sure to victims this can seem like they are not being believed but it has to be done.

This whole thing about a girl "asking for it" due to what they wear etc is rubbish.

How do people here think the system should be changed to ensure that victims are treated with respect and so that false accusations are weeded out?

Rape is a relatively unique crime for being such an awful crime that is so difficult to prove without hard evidence.

Ickle Magoo · 08-04-2012 07:51PM

Stargazer7 wrote: »

I am all for general safety tips but the post is hysterical, full of myths and overly forceful. Granted it is just a facebook post but we are talking about myths in society here, not published papers by psychologists/sociologists.

Well exactly...

I hardly think one post on facebook is representative of society - we're in serious feckin trouble if it is...tbh I think it's dragging an otherwise worthwhile and interesting discussion away from some very important points in order to labour one specific and universally agreed case of lame amateur journalism. It hardly needs pointing out but the internet is chock full of nonsensical articles and unscientific, unfair, untrue and even unhealthy pontification & I don't think concentrating on individual trees while merrily missing the woods is ever very useful...to anyone.

Stargazer7 · 08-04-2012 08:05PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well exactly...

I hardly think one post on facebook is representative of society - we're in serious feckin trouble if it is...tbh I think it's dragging an otherwise worthwhile and interesting discussion away from some very important points in order to labour one specific and universally agreed case of lame amateur journalism. It hardly needs pointing out but the internet is chock full of nonsensical articles and unscientific, unfair, untrue and even unhealthy pontification & I don't think concentrating on individual trees while merrily missing the woods is ever very useful...to anyone.

Fair enough - I thought I was on topic pointing out the craziness of some misconceptions. Apologies if you feel it's dragging the discussion off topic or into pointless territory.

Ickle Magoo · 08-04-2012 08:17PM

Stargazer7 wrote: »

Fair enough - I thought I was on topic pointing out the craziness of some misconceptions. Apologies if you feel it's dragging the discussion off topic or into pointless territory.

There's no need to apologise to me. You asked - yet again - for opinions on that one facebook post and I'm just giving you mine....

It's one of probably billions of similar postings on the net - pick a topic & you'll find a gazillion ignorant/hate-filled/nonsensical/down-right asinine ramblings on that subject...I'm just not sure what you think repeatedly commenting on this one - and I haven't seen anyone suggesting it's a great article btw - actually achieves? The thread was originally about women being demonized and how that affects the rate of convictions in rape cases and we've somehow moved to how one facebook post by some random person who has neither the credentials nor backing of any rape organisation is too ambiguous in their language and full of sexism and misinformation - I mean, seriously? You want to go through the internet post by post and comment on the legitimacy of each and every random post?

Myths about rape victims

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