Myths about rape victims

Tigger99 · 14-02-2012 10:44PM

I thought this reponse was very appropriate for this forum. I am not condoning the violence element in it, but excluding that it is a very good piece.

Anonymous asked: If you had a daughter and she was going to go out to a party with guys drinking would you let her go out looking like a slut?
If the next generation has sons that are as repulsed by rape as they should be then we won’t need to worry about our daughter’s clothing. Hell, if we just make our generation shift the blame from the victim to the perpetrator and recognize rape as an act of violence rather than a natural hazard then we won’t even notice clothing. In fact the only way that I’ll need to worry about my daughter’s clothing is if society stays this ****ed. I’d probably end up doing something incredibly violent to somebody if anything ever happened to one of my loved ones and the system failed them.
So the question becomes; If you had a son and he was going out to a party with girls drinking, would you let him go knowing that one of them could be my daughter and that if he ever touched her without her consent I’d kill you?
You focus on raising a son that you can confidently send to a party even if you think that you will die if he inappropriately touches a woman and I’ll focus on raising a daughter full stop.

http://twitpic.com/8ijklr/full

jocmilt · 31-03-2012 05:41PM

This is an excellent video on false rape allegations
SNIP

I can also recommend anything by manwomanmyth
SNIP

Jenneke87 · 31-03-2012 08:21PM

No offence jocmilt but this is a thread about the myths surrounding rape victims and not about false rape alligations. What exactly are your thoughts behind posting such video's in a thread that discusses the complete opposite?

howsyourtusk · 31-03-2012 11:58PM

Looks like a load of anti-feminist propaganda to me!

I am a friend · 01-04-2012 09:01AM

My heart goes out to everyone who has suffered like this. Playing devils advocate here - maybe the more people who report it, the less myths there would be??

Wibbs · 01-04-2012 01:25PM

jocmiltmay I remind you a) the thread title and b) the title of this forum. If you want to discuss false rape accusations then be my guest, but not on this thread and it's unlikely to sit well on this forum in general as it tends to derail discussion all over the place. Links deleted.

cloud493 · 01-04-2012 05:35PM

Everything that's been said about reporting it, lessening the amount of false allegations, is all true. On paper. It just isn't that easy in practice

And whoever said 'if you don't report it you don't get victim status' what a stupid thing to say. Of course you're a victim. Its just not that easy to wander into a police station and tell someone about it.

jocmilt · 02-04-2012 03:37PM

Wibbs wrote: »

jocmiltmay I remind you a) the thread title and b) the title of this forum. If you want to discuss false rape accusations then be my guest, but not on this thread and it's unlikely to sit well on this forum in general as it tends to derail discussion all over the place. Links deleted.

Sorry about that. I thought the thread was encompassing false rape allegations in a post above by Piste?

"That article about how that lady was treated by the judge is just heartbreaking- regardless of whether the men were guilty or innocent she should never have been treated like that and I can see this story having serious implications for women's willingness to come forward after a rape and follow their accusations through to trial."

If they are guilty she is a victim and if they are innocent they have been falsely accused and she has made... oh well, I can't say it can I?

"Regardless of whether the men were guilty or innocent"? Is that how twisted the victimology is within rape culture? It doesn't matter if the men are innocent or guilty? The video to which you deleted the links on the grounds that it was inappropriate to this thread discussed that very issue so I'm sure you can find it in your heart to forgive my mistake.

jocmilt · 02-04-2012 04:13PM

panda100 wrote: »

I think the most dangerous rape myth that is out there is that it happens by a stranger down a dark alley. The actually chances of being attacked in this manner are absolutely minute.

I don't think anyone thinks rape only occurs in isolated locations and is carried out entirely and exclusively by strangers. However to say that the incidence of rape by a stranger is "absolutely minute" is completely wrong. Yes, the overwhelming majority of cases are by acquaintances but not an absolute majority and certainly not so many as should make us think we are safe down that dark alley, half naked and drunk with a stranger waiting in a doorway. Different studies put stranger rape at anything from one in five to one in twenty.

When it comes to preventing rape any campaign must be divided into two areas; acquaintance rape and stranger rape. In practice it is very difficult to intervene and prevent rape between acquaintances. People just won't be told their friend is dodgy. There may be co-dependency or other issues at play, like psychiatric disorders or substance/alcohol abuse. You really have to look behind the statistics without an agenda to be able to examine each case and see it's personal circumstances. But when it comes to stranger rape there are many things we can all do to decrease the risk. These rapes are often more violent, more traumatic and in some cases end in death or very serious injury, so they should not be discounted to suit some 'slut walk' agenda.

Gottalovegreys · 02-04-2012 09:32PM

Below is a very interesting piece, and from a personal and professsional perspective, i think it sums it up.

"The Rape" of Mr. Smith
Author Unknown

The law discriminates against rape victims in a manner which would not be tolerated by victims of any other crime. In the following example, a holdup victim is asked questions similar in form to those usually asked a rape victim.

"Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of 16th & Locust?"

"Yes."

"Did you struggle with the robber?"

"No."

"Why not?"

"He was armed."

"Then you made a conscious decision to comply with his demands rather than to resist?"

"Yes."

"Did you scream? Cry out?"

"No. I was afraid."

"I see. Have you ever been held up before?"

"No."

"Have you ever given money away?"

"Yes, of course --"

"And did you do so willingly?"

"What are you getting at?"

"Well, let's put it like this, Mr. Smith. You've given away money in the past -- in fact, you have quite a reputation for philanthropy. How can we be sure that you weren't contriving to have your money taken away from you by force?"

"Listen, if I wanted --"

"Never mind. What time did this holdup take place, Mr. Smith?"

"About 11 p.m."

"You were out on the streets at 11 p.m.? Doing what?"

"Just walking."

"Just walking? You know that it's dangerous being out on the street that late at night. Weren't you aware that you could have been held up?"

"I hadn't thought about it."

"What were you wearing at the time, Mr. Smith?"

"Let's see. A suit. Yes, a suit."

"An expensive suit?"

"Well -- yes."

"In other words, Mr. Smith, you were walking around the streets late at night in a suit that practically _advertised_ the fact that you might be a good target for some easy money, isn't that so? I mean, if we didn't know better, Mr. Smith, we might even think you were asking for this to happen, mightn't we?"

"Look, can't we talk about the past history of the guy who did this to me?"

"I'm afraid not, Mr. Smith. I don't think you would want to violate his rights, now, would you?"

:mad:

Stargazer7 · 07-04-2012 10:52AM

trying.... wrote: »

I've had to go unregged for this, because this is very recent for me and it's not something I find easy to talk about or deal with, but after seeing yet another of these threads I had to say something.

I felt sick when I saw the thread appear, because I knew it would spiral out of control in the same way all of the others have. And I knew I'd keep reading, I knew I'd keep reading because as much as I tell myself it's not my fault, and as much as other people try to convince me - it only takes a few words to send my world crashing in around me all over again. Knowing something, and making yourself believe it, are 2 entirely different things.

I went to a bar, I had 5 drinks. My drink was spiked. I woke up with no idea where I was, or who I was with - who was on top of me. I didn't know where I was, but I got out, and I wandered - I wandered for what seemed like forever until a guy stopped and asked what happened, told me I was in shock, and said he'd take me home. I thought he'd look after me, that was a mistake. He saw an opportunity and he took it. He took me home, and it all started all over again. I struggle with this, because I'm the common denominator. Two guys, and me. I struggle to accept that it's not my fault.

Yet here you are, all of these people who post in these threads and question it. Do you think it's my fault for going to a club? For having a few drinks? For accepting help when I thought it was all over?

I do, most of the time I do - I can't help it. And you know what the hardest thing is? Worrying that everyone else thinks it too. And you know what's harder than that? Seeing it written down in front of you, and KNOWING there are so many people who do. It f.ucking kills me inside. Every single day. The guilt, the embarrassment, the anger, the hate. Everything.

I'm doing my best. I'm seeing someone who is trying to help me get through it, and to deal with everything. But it's changed me, and it's changed my whole world. I haven't felt 'happy' in so, so long; sometimes I'm scared I'll never feel it again. I either feel so crushed under the weight of my world that I can't see a way out; or else I feel nothing. That's what it's come to - the only way I can survive now is just not to feel at all.

So, you may call me a survivor - but this isn't living, this isn't a life.

I still can't say the word, I can read it here, and I can post this..but I can't say it. But what I can say is this, it's so much more than just that one incident, it's so much more than just an attack on your body - it's an attack on everything that you thought you were, and everything that you thought you knew. It tears you up inside and takes away all of the nuts and bolts that once held you together, it leaves you empty and abandoned..and in pieces.

It's never ok. I don't care what the circumstance, I don't care who said what or who did what, and I don't care what anyone else thinks or says...it's never, never ok.

I'm never going to write about this on here again, but I just hope this makes some people understand a bit more, I hope it makes them think.

Thank you for reading.

Thank you for your honesty. I cannot imagine what you have gone through but from past experiences I can understand the worry that it IS in fact your fault, and if, just if you had made different decisions then things would've been ok and people wouldn't blame you. I know you probably won't believe me as you can barely believe yourself but It Is Not Your Fault. It is their fault, they did something unforgivable and you need to now look after yourself, your own physical and mental health. You can go over the "what ifs" and they will just go over and over in your head until you begin to forgive yourself. You did nothing wrong. You did not ask for this to happen and you did not deserve it. If you haven't already, please seek counselling or confide in loving friends who will support you. It is a hard road but it will help in time.

LeeHoffmann · 07-04-2012 10:21PM

Mr Justice Paul Carney interrupted and told her she would have to go to the dock and point the men out. The visibly terrified woman was made stand in front of the accused men.
After evidence finished for the day, a barrister in the case said privately that he was sure the woman was going to collapse during the ordeal.
Mr Justice Carney issued a warrant for her arrest and ordered that no discretion be used when executing it.

That judge should be shot. Do a tiny bit of research or just look out for his name in the rape cases that make the papers. He gives extremely lenient sentences. He was also the judge that thought a suspended sentence was an appropriate punishment for the man who broke into Mary Shannon´s home and raped her. I feel nothing but disgust for that judge. :mad:

jocmilt · 08-04-2012 04:42AM

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

That judge should be shot. Do a tiny bit of research or just look out for his name in the rape cases that make the papers. He gives extremely lenient sentences

You are wrong there. Mr Justice Paul Carney has had long sentences for rape overturned in the past on appeal. For instance in the case of Christy Griffin Justice Kearney handed down a life sentence which was reduced to a 15 year sentence by the Court of Criminal Appeal. Earlier this year Justice Kearney sentenced Cork man, Ray Mulvey, to 12 years in prison for rape. He sentenced Stephen Rogers to 10 years for statutory rape and an unnamed former paramilitary from Donegal to 15 years for rape. Last year he sentenced Harry Daly from Limerick to 15 years for rape.

These examples show that Justice Carney commonly hands down 15 years for a proven rape case. "extremely lenient sentences"? I think not.

Perhaps you think that rapists should be shot along with Justice Carney? Castrated? Castrated and then shot? But can we first conclusively determine their guilt?

In the case of the alleged gang-rape of the Eastern European woman mentioned here there were serious concerns about her ability to correctly identify her alleged assailants. I think most sane people will agree it is of vital importance to correctly identify an accused person especially anyone facing lengthy sentences in the region of 15 years. Perhaps other more hysterical souls, less concerned with facts, might believe an accused man automatically guilty but that is not how the law works.

jay-me · 08-04-2012 06:00AM

Can't say I have noticed an abundance in demonising victims of rape on the contrary in fact! It has always been the Rapist who has been, and rightly so, demonised. In saying that I well believe many people who suffer attacks are afraid to report it due to the process involved and the social stigma they percieve will be inevitable. But I for one can say whenever I have read of someone coming forward and not witholding their names demonising them would be the last thing I would do and would think most rational people would be the same!

On the other hand I think the Gardai have to be thorough in their investigations so as not to bring in an innocent person based on allegations. But this should be a double edged sword, and the person who has come forward to make the allegations should be treated with upmost respect and tenderness.

Stargazer7 · 08-04-2012 09:59AM

I had to share this somewhere before I burst a blood vessel. An Indian coworker shared this on facebook. Granted it is facebook so should generally be taken with a pinch of salt but it just irritated me so much! I find it so utterly offensive to women and just generally full of misinformation.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=377931975581034&set=p.377931975581034&type=1

howsyourtusk · 08-04-2012 10:44AM

Line at the end which can be summarised as: "Don't be sympathetic woman, you could be raped". Just a ridiculous document

Ickle Magoo · 08-04-2012 10:52AM

Not as ridiculous as pretending the numbers of women who have suffered sexual assault/assault in their lives isn't horrendous and they don't need to be wary...it's telling that it's seldom women pushing the "you have nothing to worry about and anything which highlights or tries to address the issue is an over-reaction" angle...

howsyourtusk · 08-04-2012 11:09AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Not as ridiculous as pretending the numbers of women who have suffered sexual assault/assault in their lives isn't horrendous and they don't need to be wary...it's telling that it's seldom women pushing the "you have nothing to worry about and anything which highlights or tries to address the issue is an over-reaction" angle...

I think it's dangerous to be honest. Because it perpetuates the myth that rapists are people you do not know first of all. And secondly because it implies that women can "avoid rape" by changing the way they act or behave. i.e. don't be sympathetic to a man, he might rape you.

Ickle Magoo · 08-04-2012 11:18AM

And yet that's a contradiction since the very fact that rapists are often known to their victims would prove that befriending and pretending to be genuine is indeed a technique that women should be at least aware of....

And I'd add that just because a high percentage of rapes are not stranger rapes - doesn't mean that women shouldn't be educated about or wary of them. I'm beyond fed up/disheartened/sickened with the "risk to women less important than the good name of men" routine, tbh...

BarackPyjama · 08-04-2012 11:20AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm beyond fed up/disheartened/sickened with the "risk to women less important than the good name of men" routine, tbh...

In an ideal world, no woman would ever be at risk and no good man would ever have his name dragged through the mud. It's certainly disheartening/sickening that we don't live in an ideal world.

Ickle Magoo · 08-04-2012 11:23AM

In the Ladies Lounge especially - posters should be able to discuss the realities of rape and being rape victims without having to field defensive male posters posturing about how the risks they face or the lengths some women go to protect themselves or educate others are actually all about the poor men, ffs. :rolleyes:

BarackPyjama · 08-04-2012 11:32AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

In the Ladies Lounge especially - posters should be able to discuss the realities of rape and being rape victims without having to field defensive male posters posturing about how the risks they face or the lengths some women go to protect themselves or educate others are actually all about the poor men, ffs. :rolleyes:

Interesting attitude towards men there. The point I was making was supposed to be empathic and humane. Sorry, didn't mean to offend you.

howsyourtusk · 08-04-2012 11:38AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And yet that's a contradiction since the very fact that rapists are often known to their victims would prove that befriending and pretending to be genuine is indeed a technique that women should be at least aware of....

And I'd add that just because a high percentage of rapes are not stranger rapes - doesn't mean that women shouldn't be educated about or wary of them. I'm beyond fed up/disheartened/sickened with the "risk to women less important than the good name of men" routine, tbh...

You know I'm not one of the "the good name of a man is more important" types. I think you're being a bit unfair on me tbh. I'm not saying you shouldn't be aware of these things, but are you really saying that fb thing is any way helpful?

Of course women should be aware of the dangers of all sorts of rape but as I said, I think it perpetuates the myth that rape is a pre-meditated, dark alley committed crime only. And that is a dangerous myth. That doesn't mean rape is never pre-meditated.

Ickle Magoo · 08-04-2012 11:38AM

There's no attitude towards "men" - that's just as disingenuous as your original comment. It's a thread on myths about rape victims in tLL - using it to soapbox false allegation or slur of men's good-name is beyond low - that's a comment aimed at posters, not a gender.

ETA

howsyourtusk, there are the same names that always crop up in these thread in tLL banging the same drum - it is both obvious and tiresome...tho it says more about them than the discussion...

...do I think the facebook article is brilliant? No. I don't see where it suggests there is only one kind of rapist, it seems to me to be more of a cobbled together mixture of self-defence and the same stranger-danger stuff that always gets trotted out with a few urban myths thrown in for good measure - I can't imagine women are going to read it and think it solves all their rape and sexual assault concerns so I think peddling that fear is a bit silly. On the other-hand if one women notices/reacts and gets away from an attacker after reading, that's a good thing.

BarackPyjama · 08-04-2012 11:40AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

There's no attitude towards "men" - that's just as disingenuous as your original comment. It's a thread on myths about rape victims in tLL - using it to soapbox false allegation or slur of men's good-name is beyond low - that's a comment aimed at posters, not a gender.

Um, ok. I'll leave you to it so.

howsyourtusk · 08-04-2012 11:49AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

howsyourtusk, there are the same names that always crop up in these thread in tLL banging the same drum - it is both obvious and tiresome...tho it says more about them than the discussion...

Do you mean me here? I'm genuinely confused! See my posts in the other thread on this topic running if you have any doubts over my views, I have a completely victim centric approach.

...do I think the facebook article is brilliant? No. I don't see where it suggests there is only one kind of rapist, it seems to me to be more of a cobbled together mixture of self-defence and the same stranger-danger stuff that always gets trotted out with a few urban myths thrown in for good measure - I can't imagine women are going to read it and think it solves all their rape and sexual assault concerns so I think peddling that fear is a bit silly. On the other-hand if one women notices/reacts and gets away from an attacker after reading, that's a good thing.

And yeh, it's not all useless I suppose.

Ickle Magoo · 08-04-2012 12:05PM

howsyourtusk wrote: »

Do you mean me here? I'm genuinely confused! See my posts in the other thread on this topic running if you have any doubts over my views, I have a completely victim centric approach.

I mean anyone who belittles or plays down the fears and risks many women have to live with. Read any thread on such topics and you'll see the same names/new/re-reggies cropping up singing the same tune.

howsyourtusk wrote: »

And yeh, it's not all useless I suppose.

I'm not sure what the alternative is anyway...while there is such a widespread problem of attacks against women there are going to be articles and guides on how to avoid them - some good, some bloody awful...wouldn't it be novel if the spotlight was taken off women and how affective their actions or reactions to the risks they face and put on those causing the issues instead?

howsyourtusk · 08-04-2012 12:23PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm not sure what the alternative is anyway...while there is such a widespread problem of attacks against women there are going to be articles and guides on how to avoid them - some good, some bloody awful...wouldn't it be novel if the spotlight was taken off women and how affective their actions or reactions to the risks they face and put on those causing the issues instead?

The new campaign in the UK is a step in that direction. And the "don't be that guy" campaign from Ottawa is also brilliant. Of course in this wonderfully progressive country of ours we've no campaigns of the sort.

Morag · 08-04-2012 12:50PM

howsyourtusk wrote: »

The new campaign in the UK is a step in that direction. And the "don't be that guy" campaign from Ottawa is also brilliant. Of course in this wonderfully progressive country of ours we've no campaigns of the sort.

http://www.sexualassaultvoices.com/our-campaign.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DchyUYRYVlI

The_Minister · 08-04-2012 02:10PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

There's no attitude towards "men" - that's just as disingenuous as your original comment. It's a thread on myths about rape victims in tLL - using it to soapbox false allegation or slur of men's good-name is beyond low - that's a comment aimed at posters, not a gender.

If you look at the article, while it later refers to 'predators', for a significant proportion of it's length it refers to 'men'.

Men look for this, men do that - it's hardly belittling the argument being made to wish that it uses terms like 'rapist' instead.

Though I do think that article is ridiculous in that:
1) Some of the advice is OTT
2) Some of the advice is actually dangerous.

Myths about rape victims

Comments