Myths about rape victims

Stargazer7

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

There's no need to apologise to me. You asked - yet again - for opinions on that one facebook post and I'm just giving you mine....

It's one of probably billions of similar postings on the net - pick a topic & you'll find a gazillion ignorant/hate-filled/nonsensical/down-right asinine ramblings on that subject...I'm just not sure what you think repeatedly commenting on this one - and I haven't seen anyone suggesting it's a great article btw - actually achieves? The thread was originally about women being demonized and how that affects the rate of convictions in rape cases and we've somehow moved to how one facebook post by some random person who has neither the credentials nor backing of any rape organisation is too ambiguous in their language and full of sexism and misinformation - I mean, seriously? You want to go through the internet post by post and comment on the legitimacy of each and every random post?

Ok, I put up the post for opinions and went by the thread title "myths about rape victims". I had no wish to derail anything. I don't get the ire that I seem to have earned about it. I have no wish to go through the internet post by post and comment on each and every random post. I took it as a random example and thought it was ok to do so. I do not wish to get into an argument about it and derail things further. Let's leave it at that.

jocmilt

Giselle wrote: »

I think you have to leave open the possibility that some rapists (especially of the acquaintance variety) do not always see their actions in terms of rape.

A guy who's had a girl flirt with him, maybe had some kissing and fondling, and who might be pushy when a girl expresses reservation, won't frame what he does as rape.

He'll preserve his self-image as a good guy by maybe admitting he pushed it a bit, but he's going to counter that with commuters like 'she led me on' she 'needed persuading' and that sort of thing. Rape is often a crime of opportunity, and a girl in a compromised, ambigious situation, is in danger from this kind of self justifying thinking.

People who do this, and I know they exist, need telling that its rape. Not chancing their arm, not convincing the girl, rape.

They aren't all eagle eyed predators with their game plan laid out in advance.

I will concede that there may be cases where, due to diminished responsibility, a person lacks enough common sense to understand they are raping someone. Yes, that is possible. That is why there is training given to carers of such people how to teach them boundaries. I don't think any man with above moronic intelligence doesn't understand the word no even if he has been led on by flirting, kissing and fondling, as you said. Your imagined attacker is an egomanic who feels slighted. A narcissist perhaps? Most men who are not impaired with sociopathy or narcissistic personality disorder will just drop a woman like you describe and think, "silly cow". They will not decide to proceed to rape her just because she is acting like fool.

Portraying all men as potential rapists who need to be educated not to rape when they are boys is just hateful. It's a cover for man-haters to teach boys to self-immasculate and become weaponised to fight for contrived feminist myths which do little to protect women.

It would be of far more use to society to identify and isolate the men and women who pose a real threat to the safety of vulnerable people instead of allowing them to set hate agendas like the idea that all men are potential rapists.

Dudess

Any agenda is all in your head.

Kimia

BarackPyjama wrote: »

snip

The way you guys go on about 'man-haters' remind me of the way the tigers were called 'man-eaters' in the Jungle Book. It's not all about you, ya know.

Wibbs

BarackPyjama don't post in this thread again. Do so and you'll get a long ban. Post deleted.

Dudess

BarackPyjama wrote: »

SNIP Please let's not quote his post again. Thanks.

They don't as you know. Nor do these ads give out the message that all men are potential rapists - but you clearly want to believe these things in order to wallow in your imagined state of persecution, so off you go. Must be lonely though - projecting your bad experience onto women you don't know. Talking to someone might help - I actually mean that...

Giselle

jocmilt wrote: »

I will concede that there may be cases where, due to diminished responsibility, a person lacks enough common sense to understand they are raping someone.

Where exactly did I say the rapist in this scenario was a person of diminished responsibility? Unwillingness to take the responsibility is not the same thing.

Yes, that is possible. That is why there is training given to carers of such people how to teach them boundaries

.
WTF? Talk about putting words in my mouth.

I don't think any man with above moronic intelligence doesn't understand the word no even if he has been led on by flirting, kissing and fondling, as you said.

Thats the point. He understands the word no, he just thinks she doesn't REALLY mean it, or that she's just a BIT reluctant, and its no big deal. I like the way you say led on there, it adds to the excuses.

Your imagined attacker is an egomanic who feels slighted. A narcissist perhaps? Most men who are not impaired with sociopathy or narcissistic personality disorder will just drop a woman like you describe and think, "silly cow". They will not decide to proceed to rape her just because she is acting like fool.

My imagined attacker is a regular guy who doesn't give enough thought to the consequences of his actions. Lets face it, most rapists, particularly date rapists, never face the consequences. That doesn't equate to a sociopath or narcisist, or someone mentally unbalanced, challenged or whatever. Its one of the problems with identifying rapists, most of the time they look and behave like everyone else.

Lol at your last remark there.

Portraying all men as potential rapists who need to be educated not to rape when they are boys is just hateful. It's a cover for man-haters to teach boys to self-immasculate and become weaponised to fight for contrived feminist myths which do little to protect women.

It would be of far more use to society to identify and isolate the men and women who pose a real threat to the safety of vulnerable people instead of allowing them to set hate agendas like the idea that all men are potential rapists.

Tell me more about the contrived myths and the man-haters please.

It would be of great use to society to pre-emptively identify potential rapists.

It would alos be of massive use to society to pre-emptively identify people who will drive dangerously, become agressive when drunk, will partake of dangerous drugs, develop cancer...you get the picture.

Putting out a campaign explaining what constitutes rape is not a hate agenda. Putting out a campaign that condemns speeding isn't a hate campaign either. It doesn't claim all drivers are speeders, just that the ones who are put lives at risk.

A small proportion of men are potential rapists. Some small proportion of those won't ever be able to identify their behaviour as rape. Putting it out there in plain terms means that its harder to excuse their behaviour to themselves. Surely thats a good thing? or are you so determined to see hate and misandry that you can't see that?

LeeHoffmann

Perhaps you think that rapists should be shot along with Justice Carney? Castrated? Castrated and then shot? But can we first conclusively determine their guilt?

In the case of the alleged gang-rape of the Eastern European woman mentioned here there were serious concerns about her ability to correctly identify her alleged assailants. I think most sane people will agree it is of vital importance to correctly identify an accused person especially anyone facing lengthy sentences in the region of 15 years. Perhaps other more hysterical souls, less concerned with facts, might believe an accused man automatically guilty but that is not how the law works.

woah assumption overload there my friend. Do try and explain why you suspect I advocate castration and execution of all suspected rapists? Do try and explain why you think I find mere suspicion and accusation enough proof to convict, let alone castrate and execute a person. Do try and explain why you imagine the matter of correctly identifying suspected rapists to be of minor importance to me. You can´t? Maybe you should refrain from putting words in other posters mouths then.

I would have thought most reasonable people would recognise the hyperbole in my previous post for what it was - deliberate exaggeration intended to convey my outrage and horror. There´s always one though. :rolleyes:

So which part is it that I was wrong about? I´m delighted to hear that he´s handed down a few reasonable-length sentences for rape crimes (no links in your post but I´ll assume your facts are correct). That doesn´t change the fact that he handed down numerous sentences for rape that were extremely lenient. Sometimes you read the newspaper and the reported sentence for some horrific crime makes you doubt you live in a civilised society. So you read the article again to check who deemed that sentences appropriate...for rape cases, the same name jumps out again and again and again. It´s the only reason I know who he is.

LeeHoffmann

Cultivation of the absence of adult agency and self-infantilisation in women is not a solution to rape. If women refuse to accept their own security if first and foremost their own duty then they will continue to suffer the consequences

nonsense. Stating that a person cannot control another person´s actions is not a ´refusal to accept your duty to keep yourself safe´, nor is it ´self-infantilisation´ nor is it a ´cultivation of the absence of agency´. The whole robbery and rape analogy is fatally flawed but I suspect you´re the ind of person who likes to use it, so I´ll put it this way - if you parked your car in a car park commonly used, one that wasn´t in a ´dangerous area´, and you did so during normal daylight hours, and you locked and alarmed it the same as everyone else did - yet somebody broke into it, hotwired it, took it for a joyride, then abandoned it in a field and set fire to it...would your outrage and your call for increased security in car parks be a form of self-infantilisation? Would it be your refusal to accept that the security of your car is your duty?
No person can control another person´s actions. Women don´t ask to be raped. Most of us go to very great lengths to stay safe while being derided by some men for ´treating all men as suspected rapists´ for doing so. What you are asking is that women take 100% responsibility for not being raped...the only way they could do that is by locking themselves in a tower.

I don't think any man with above moronic intelligence doesn't understand the word no even if he has been led on by flirting, kissing and fondling, as you said. Your imagined attacker is an egomanic who feels slighted. A narcissist perhaps? Most men who are not impaired with sociopathy or narcissistic personality disorder will just drop a woman like you describe and think, "silly cow". They will not decide to proceed to rape her just because she is acting like fool.

Some people think it´s ok to have sex with a woman if she changes her mind half-way through. That´s rape but many people don´t know it.

Portraying all men as potential rapists who need to be educated not to rape when they are boys is just hateful. It's a cover for man-haters to teach boys to self-immasculate and become weaponised to fight for contrived feminist myths which do little to protect women.

oh yes the great conspiracy of womankind to make all men hate themselves? How did I forget about that? Boys are taught from a young age not to hit girls...is that portraying all men as potential wife-beaters who need to be educated not to physically abuse? Children (male and female) are taught not to slap, exclude, deride others etc...is that also portraying all children as potential bullies? Or it it educating people about right and wrong, cultivating empathy and enabling them to see issues from the perspective of the other person?

eviltwin

Okay I will just say now I have only skimmed some of the replies but please tell me we are not arguing about rape :eek: Rape is a crime ffs, it can never be confused with sex.

Sex is something you do with someone, rape is something that is done to you.

I agree women need to be more mindful of their safety but that doesn't make a difference if a crime occurs.

Dolbert

eviltwin wrote: »

Okay I will just say now I have only skimmed some of the replies but please tell me we are not arguing about rape :eek:

Actually reading the thread would answer that for you... Why bother posting if you haven't?

eviltwin

Dolorous wrote: »

Actually reading the thread would answer that for you... Why bother posting if you haven't?

Lol I know I should but can't be bothered getting into an men vs women debate over it. Rape is rape.

The Black Oil

Does anyone know if the Rape Crisis Centre or any similar organisations go into schools and do talks or presentations? Might this be a place to start? The ads posted here (or maybe I'm mixed up with the sexual assault thread) are good, but maybe we need to start a lot earlier. Teachers are obviously alert to child protection issues, but that's only one part of the picture. The Samaritans (I think), Bodywhys and maybe other organisations do some school talks on mental health issues and I'd hope that breaks down some of the stigma and knocks backs a few myths that are out there. There wasn't really any mental health coverage when I was in school. I think the thing about those situations is that they have sort of a self-policing effect amongst peers. There'll be the usual dismissive attitude from some, but I'd hope for most people would take the issues seriously. That is, if you could design the right sort of schools programme on rape and sexual assault. Something that gets the message across, generates discussion and that Boards of Management, etc are happy to allow into schools. If we're teaching young people about sex, sexual health, etc, then why not about what's not acceptable? I can't recall if I heard the word consent in any school talks on sex.

I don't watch a lot of TV, but I didn't really like the last RCC ad I saw in the cinema. As it happens, I wasn't overly fond of the Samaritans one, either. It reminded me too much of church and industrial school abuse (not to dismiss what happened there and maybe I picked up the ad the wrong way) and felt a little closed off to other situations where rape has happened. I think it would have been more effective if it was a bit more rounded out...cinema ads are usually longer, though it's impossible to convey everything in 60 seconds. To come back to mental health, we're obviously now seeing a big push to campaign on this. IIRC, on some other discussion on boards a while back someone said it's no good telling people to speak up and talk when we're not telling others to listen. I thought this was a really good point that's been somewhat missed in some of these campaigns. The same could probably said for rape - if we don't educate people properly and give those who are assaulted the tools to speak up, then why would they feel confident in talking about it? I'd be curious to know what if any training the Guards get when they're in Templemore.

Start with the young people, get the attitude shifted in one generation and that might have a positive effect...I think it's much harder to re-shape the attitudes of adults, some of whom obviously follow the 'she was asking for it' way of thinking.

Morag

I've seen posters for http://www.b4udecide.ie/ up in the local secondary schools, but most of the issues around 'consent' in secondary schools seem to be about the age of consent.

jocmilt

Giselle wrote: »

Where exactly did I say the rapist in this scenario was a person of diminished responsibility?

Where exactly did I say you said that?

Giselle wrote: »

WTF? Talk about putting words in my mouth

Don’t worry dearie, I don’t want to put anything in your mouth

[mod snip]

Ickle Magoo

jocmilt wrote: »

Don’t worry dearie, I don’t want to put anything in your mouth

Do not post in this thread again - and I suggest you acquaint yourself with the charter and ethos of this forum if you wish to retain your posting rights to this forum.

This is a forum for the ladies of boards to have their say - and this thread is the myths about rape victims from a female perspective - as per the purpose of this forum.

cloud493

We had someone in my school before I left, I'm only 19, from the rape crisis centre. Didn't think it was a terribly good presentation to be honest, she only mentioned women, wasn't explicit on how to report it. But hey, its like anything, takes time. And at least it is happening

And while I don't want to be dragged into an argument, rape is rape. The person committing the rape, should know right from wrong, saying 'I didn't know' should not be an excuse. Someone who can do that to another person, has to take the consequences, of their actions.

Morag

Unbelievable that they turned a blind eye to this when one of the teens tried to report it.


http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2012/05/rochdale_rape_r

Rochdale rape ring; on political correctness versus survivor's credibility

It has been revealed that one of the victims of the Rochdale rape ring reported her rapist to police in 2008 - twice - but he was not charged. As reported in the Telegraph and the Mail, the former MP for Keighley, Ann Cryer, suggested that the reason the charges were dropped was due to the men's race:

"This is an absolute scandal. They were petrified of being called racist and so reverted to the default of political correctness," she said.
"They had a greater fear of being perceived in that light than in dealing with the issues in front of them."
Although this is not the first time Mrs Cryer has tried to attribute general social ills to her belief that the police tread too softly with the Asian community, this theme has gained significant currency on the internet, no doubt in part encouraged by the media (the Telegraph made it the focal point of their article, with the headline "Rochdale grooming trial: Police accused of failing to investigate paedophile gang for fear of appearing racist") The word on the street - or the net - is that this is what happened.

The Guardian's take is not from the former MP; they report that: "police initially failed to pursue her case because the Crown Prosecution Service advised them she was not a credible enough witness."

We know that the victims in this case were vulnerable teenagers from "chaotic" backgrounds, and all had been engaged with social services at some stage. When it comes to 'credibility' that will have been an influencing factor.

When a rape is reported to the police, the CPS have to decide whether a jury is likely to believe the victim. They will then charge, take no further action, or 'no crime' it - make a record that no crime was committed. They might take no further action even if they accept that she was raped, but think a jury will not believe her - because they are dealing with a hypothetical jury in the society we have, not the society we might like, and that society is one which routinely disbelieves rape victims - just look at the Ched Evans furore.

We already know that reported rapes are no-crimed at a rate of 30% in Kent, as opposed to 2% in Gloucestershire. Kent has more pockets of deprivation than Gloucestershire, and its districts (in particular Thanet, Dover, Swale and Shepway) are much further up on the indices of multiple deprivation than those of comparatively well-heeled Gloucestershire. The teenage pregnancy rate is lower, too, in Gloucestershire than in Kent (25.6 v 34.7 per 1,000 women aged 15 - 17 in 2009).

Whether a woman is believed or not is often down to her presentation. The fictitious 'perfect victim' will be white, middle-class, virginal, sober, and a stranger to the rapist. The reality is messier. Research done by the Havens in 2010 shows that many people believe that a victim is at least partially responsible for her own rape in certain circumstances:

Performing another sexual act on them (73%)
Getting into bed with a person (66%)
Drinking to excess / blackout (64%)
Going back to theirs for a drink (29%)
Dressing provocatively (28%)
Dancing in a sexy way with a man at a night club or bar (22%)
Acting flirtatiously (21%)
Kissing them (14%)
Accepting a drink and engaging in a conversation at a bar (13%).

The CPS have to decide if a jury - a jury made up of people like those surveyed - will believe a victim or not. Being drunk, scantily dressed, and flirting all make it more likely that the rape will not be charged - and that makes "ladette" or "chavvy" girls less likely to be successful in getting their rapist charged.

Is this right, or acceptable? Hell no, but it's what happens, and it's why we need to keep fighting for women, ALL women, to be believed when they report rape.

To those people who say that it's "political correctness" that stopped the CPS from bringing charges against the Rochdale rapist, I snort contempt. In a society that was already stacked against vulnerable girls known to the care system, we add to it that such girls are just not believed when they report rape, although it goes without saying that they should be.

So before you damn the CPS as blithering toadies to an improbable PC conspiracy, have a good look at yourself, society. Have you ever suggested that a rape victim was making it up? Attention seeking? Asking for it? Have you ever been one of those who thinks a girl in a skimpy dress deserves it, or should have known better, or that a promiscuous girl was no better than she ought to be and probably consented? If so, you are a little bit responsible for that 2008 decision not to charge.

Uncomfortable with that? We ought to be. It is imperative that we believe victims when they report, regardless of their sexual history, intoxication levels or socioeconomic background, or we are all, collectively, responsible for child rape.

Ambersky

There was a post on here a little earlier but it seems to be gone now. This may seem strange now that the post is gone but Anyway I wanted to say something to the poster.

You are not alone as you can read on these threads. You are not alone either in your experience or in your thoughts and feelings about what happened to you.
I think you are right you will never be the same but you don’t know yet who you will be. This time has to be gone through and you can get through it. You can get through it and be a better stronger person if not because of it, then despite it, or just because that’s the kind of person you are and you won’t let them take this one precious life away from you.
It is hard and you are not alone. It can really, really, help to reach out and let someone help you. There are people who want to help you if you give them the chance.
If you have any thoughts or fantasies about suicide and I think I may be hearing this in your description of hating yourself and wishing your life away but I may be wrong, it is especially important for you to reach out.
Talk to someone you can trust. Talk to someone who loves you and you can trust or talk to someone whose job it is to help like your GP or any of these numbers
24 Hour Rape and Sexual Violence Helpline 1 800 778 888
Samaritans 24 Hour Helpline 1850 60 90 90
The Samaritans also have a new text service for those who don’t feel ready to actually talk 087 260 90 90