Myths about rape victims

lazygal

Came across this story this morning: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jan/30/rape-victims-acquittals-chief-prosecutor

Which makes for sad but predicable reading. The British system would be pretty similar to ours and I'd wager that a lot of the same myths pertain. I can't imagine how difficult it much be for a woman (or man for that matter) to be able to see a conviction through to the end.

cynder

Quote: I can't imagine how difficult it much be for a woman (or man for that matter) to be able to see a conviction through to the end.

Thats why a lot of rapes go unreported!

Ectoplasm

For those on mobile:

Enduring myths about rape victims lead to acquittals, says chief prosecutor

Alison Saunders says jurors arrive at court with preconceptions about women which affects how they consider evidence

The demonisation of young women is contributing to the failure to secure more convictions of suspected rapists, one of the country's leading prosecutors warns on Monday.
Some victims are deterred from coming forward because they fear they will be vilified, says Alison Saunders, the head of the Crown Prosecution Service in London.
In an interview with the Guardian, Saunders said she believed jurors were coming to court with preconceptions about women that affected the way they considered evidence. These beliefs need to be challenged if more trials aren't to end in acquittals.
Saunders said prosecutors and detectives involved in rape cases were now trained to challenge myths and stereotypes, particularly around women who have been drinking, or those who say they have been sexually assaulted by a current or former partner.
"We have done lots of training ... but there has never been that debate on a wider social basis. You can see how some members of the jury can come along with preconceived ideas, they might still subscribe to the myths and stereotypes that we have all had a go at busting."
Saunders said she wanted to start a debate that might require "some government publicity or government guidance". She also expressed concern about the way women were portrayed in the media.
"If a girl goes out and gets drunk and falls over ... they are almost demonised in the media, and if they then become a victim, you can see how juries would bring their preconceptions to bear.
"The majority of rape cases are between people who know each other ... I think that is one of the things that jurors find particularly difficult."
Saunders said judges can give advice and directions during a trial, but often this comes too late to make jurors think twice.
"The majority of victims are under 18, a lot have drink or alcohol involved, some are repeat victims. If she has been a repeat victim, do you believe her, or is this something about her or about the defendant?
"Because we have been concentrating and looking at this, we have done a lot of work ... dispelling our myths and stereotypes. But is there something more we should be doing ... [so that] when people come onto the jury they are not being challenged for the first time, it's not something that they have only just thought about."
"There have been a lot of developments about what judges can say to jurors. Judges cannot do rape cases unless they are specialists and they have been through the myth-busting courses.
"But my view is that sometimes it is possibly too late. You may have someone who has already listened to the evidence and may have made up their mind. What we need is a wider debate that takes it out of courtroom environment so that people think about it before they get to be a juror."
She believes opening up the issue will help prosecutions and may even deter offenders who "might think they could get away with it."
Saunders believes "some women don't complain because they feel they might be vilified". They think making a formal complaint might be worse for them in the long run, she said.
"[We need] to encourage people to come forward so it is not something you will be vilified for, and jurors, when they come to cases, they come with a genuinely open mind without any preconceptions." Saunders is in charge of the biggest CPS division in England and Wales. Last year, it considered 870 suspected rapes, and sent half of them to trial.
Of those, just over 50% ended up with convictions. The "attrition" rate – those cases that ended in acquittal, has been dropping.In one recent case, Saunders said the CPS had prosecuted a man three years after the initial complaint was made, and they are going through a number of cold-case reviews, where new evidence has been found in previously unsolved inquiries.
Saunders led the prosecution team in the case against Gary Dobson and David Norris, the two men convicted of the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence. She said that although no new evidence had so far been provided by the police, she felt sure that others were involved in the killing.
"When we were looking at the case and making the decision about Dobson and Norris we didn't just look at them ... we know that other people were involved. If we get more evidence, then we will go against someone else. If there is enough for a realistic prospect of conviction."
The CPS is issuing all its prosecutors with tablet computers in a bid to drastically reduce the number of files and papers. By April this year, police in London will be submitting all cases electronically and advocates will use the handheld computers to present their cases.
"Prosecutors will have tablets when they are standing up in court and they will present everything from a tablet rather than the piles of files you see now," said Saunders

The Cool

I totally agree that the way rape cases are treated here needs to change. The struggle of reliving it to the Gardaí over and over again, enduring the forensic testing and whatever else, only to wait a couple of years for anything to happen with the courts, and maybe see the culprit get a happy ending after all that. I know if it was me, I wouldn't be 100% definite about reporting it straight away. I've a friend who's a victim and seeing the hardship she's endured since it happened - always waiting for something to happen, often feeling that her actions have been a waste - it's almost worse than the rape itself.

FouxDaFaFa

There are a lot of really horrible ingrained attitudes towards rape in society. People are very quick to condemn it and say how awful it is but I think that if it isn't perpretated by a stranger, some people find it too hard to fully absolve the victim. It's like they can't get their head around the fact that you could be (and are more likely to be) raped by a friend or acquaintance.
There's a lot of psychology behind the under-reporting of rape. Apart from the harrowing and drawn out legal process, some people just don't want anyone to know. I knew a girl who wouldn't report it because she didn't want to have that sign hanging over her head: rape victim. She couldn't stand the thought of her peers being questioned about it and finding out what had happened. It almost becomes a definition of the person in some people's minds.

cloud493

Speaking as a victim of the aforementioned... rape. It is very hard to tell someone when its happened. In my case it carried on for a while, over and over. The fear of being judged, or the culprit getting away with it, was my main fear. 'What if I tell, and they get away and come back me?' so yeah, it is hard(hope I'm ok posting in the ladies lounge)

The_Kew_Tour

cloud493 wrote: »

Speaking as a victim of the aforementioned... rape. It is very hard to tell someone when its happened. In my case it carried on for a while, over and over. The fear of being judged, or the culprit getting away with it, was my main fear. 'What if I tell, and they get away and come back me?' so yeah, it is hard(hope I'm ok posting in the ladies lounge)

Jesus sorry to hear that.

As a bloke I find it sad that in today's world people who are victims are more treated as suspects.

IMO Rape and Suicide need to be looked and discussed more openly in ways in which it can be avoided, but also for more people to come forward.

You should not be afraid because you are a victim

BarackPyjama

As traumatic as it must be to have to relive the ordeal - whether it be giving evidence to the Gardai, facing the perpetrator in court or living the whole thing again when giving testimony - it's a necessary evil. The accused are entitled to the assumption of innocence until proven guilty. Just because a man is accused of rape, doesn't necessarily mean he's guilty. Unfortunately, in cases where he is guilty, it 1) can be very difficult to prove and 2) is undoubtedly horrific for the victim.

Women who report rape should be treated justly and with compassion and understanding. The accused should be treated similarly and as innocent until proven guilty.

Most importantly, the way the authorities deal with the accused and the accuser needs to improve drastically.

Birdster

cloud493 wrote: »

Speaking as a victim of the aforementioned... rape. It is very hard to tell someone when its happened. In my case it carried on for a while, over and over. The fear of being judged, or the culprit getting away with it, was my main fear. 'What if I tell, and they get away and come back me?' so yeah, it is hard(hope I'm ok posting in the ladies lounge)

I understand, speaking as a victim myself, it took me 12 years to tell anyone. I have been left with issues that I'm dealing with now, but I don't regret not telling the authorities. I wouldn't have coped going through it all again, and again and again. And it's like someone previously posted, the rape victim label makes you feel like there is something wrong with you and not that something wrong was done TO you. It's enough to get back to normal life, and the years after have been difficult but there is no doubt in my mind if I reported to it, I'd be stuck in the past and reliving hell everyday.

minniedubminx

The Gardaí don't have a clue how to deal with this. My friend went through an awful time, being interrogated as if she had done something wrong and then brought to the Rotunda for to have a rape kit done, she had barely gotten dressed when the gards were asking her to go through it step by step all over again, like she hadn't gone over it enough out loud and in her head. A week went by and they still hadn't even brought him in for questioning even though she knew exactly where he lived and gave them the address. By day 7, she called down to the station and told them she wanted to forget about it and signed a statement withdrawal form. They had enough evidence to arrest him within 24hours of the attack but they did nothing. They didn't even bring him in for questioning on "suspicion." My friend kept it secret from everyone else but me. She goes out everyday and smiles at the world but behind closed doors she suffers from panic attacks, she's taking tablet prescribed to her to calm her down and has horrific nightmares. That's not justice! I understand there are a lot of false accusations but she had a medical examination within 6 hours of it happening, she gave his name and address, she knew who he was. There was no excuse for not responding.

magentas

sounds like a harrowing experience. I have nothing but utter respect and admiration for the women that go through with it (reporting/court etc) to prevent it happening to other women or to ensure justice is served.

It must take unbelievable strenght. I think it's inspirational for someone to take something terrible like this and give it a positive outcome

Kooli

I've worked with lots of women who've been raped as part of my job. Not a single one reported it or even considered reporting it, and I can understand that 100%.
I would never encourage someone to report either. The cost/benefit analysis (chances of conviction versus chances of re-traumatisation and victim-blaming) just doesn't make it worth it

cloud493

I had no intention of reporting it myself, till someone walked in the room. In fairness, the Liverpool police were very kind, and he's doing time in prison now(for this and other things) and reporting it is the hardest part. But they shouldn't have to be afraid of reporting it(victims) they are the victim, they shouldn't be treated with even more disrespect by the authorities that are supposed to help them

Da Shins Kelly

I think the issue around drunk people getting raped is one that needs to be talked about more. I really cannot get over the amount of people I've heard saying that girls who get raped while drunk are "asking for it" or that it's somehow "their own fault". It's never anyone's fault for being raped (man or woman), they are the victims, and yet still there are people who somehow have less sympathy for a drunk rape victim. Of course we all have a responsibility to look after ourselves, but we're not responsible for someone else's actions, especially in crimes of violence. I'm sure there are lots and lots of people who are raped while under the influence of alcohol and are just too afraid to report it because they know they'll be met with responses like 'well maybe you shouldn't have gotten so drunk?' Attitudes towards this need to change - victims are not at fault.

Links234

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article2310422/?service=mobile

It disgusts me how much disinformation there is about sexual assault and rape out there. Educating people about it, and dispelling the myths should be a priority.

panda100

I think the most dangerous rape myth that is out there is that it happens by a stranger down a dark alley. The actually chances of being attacked in this manner are absolutely minute. Yet, I have been brought up being told to constantly worry about where I walk, and at what time,by myself. As usual the onus is placed on the women to prevent her rape by being 'safe', when In reality I'm much more likley to be attacked by someone I know in my own home.I feel that we can never have an open,honest debate about rape in the media, as it always leaps to the male defence. If you look at any high profile rape or sexual assault cases,for example Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the media attention foccussed on proving that he was innocent and how much women make up false rape claims.We need to start looking at why rape happens, and it is purely an act of control and dominance.

Piste

I would have thought the media slant towards discussing Dominique Strauss-Kahn's innocence was due to the fact that charges were dropped due to his accuser's credibility and a lack of evidence for the trial to proceed- however much we want to protect victims, we must never forget that innocent until proven guilty is not victim blaming, it's due process.

BarackPyjama

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

they'll be met with responses like 'well maybe you shouldn't have gotten so drunk?' Attitudes towards this need to change - victims are not at fault.

I completely agree; when the victim has in fact been raped and isn't at fault. However would you agree that there might be a certain ratio of rape claimants who got drunk, had consensual sex and, regretting it the next day, accused the man of raping her?

Genuine victims should never be blamed but men who are accused of such a heinous crime deserve the benefit of the doubt until a thorough investigation is done and due process has been followed.

Stheno

BarackPyjama wrote: »

I completely agree; when the victim has in fact been raped and isn't at fault. However would you agree that there might be a certain ratio of rape claimants who got drunk, had consensual sex and, regretting it the next day, accused the man of raping her?

Genuine victims should never be blamed but men who are accused of such a heinous crime deserve the benefit of the doubt until a thorough investigation is done and due process has been followed.

BarackPyjama

This is the ladies lounge and this thread is specifically about how victims of rape are treated/percieved, not about false accusations of rape.

If you want to discuss false accusations of rape either start a new thr ead or take it to the Gentlemans club.

Links234

http://www.leftycartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/men1.png

BarackPyjama

I don't think men being falsely accused of rape is a laughing matter at all. But hey, I'm glad they're making comics strips about it now.

Here's a tip that I would have thought would be obvious for genuine rape victims - report it to the Gardaí then, when following up on the matter with them, bring a solicitor or some kind of legal representation. This will force the Gardaí to deal with the matter to the letter of the law.

chickenbutt

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Here's a tip that I would have thought would be obvious for genuine rape victims - report it to the Gardaí then, when following up on the matter with them, bring a solicitor or some kind of legal representation. This will force the Gardaí to deal with the matter to the letter of the law.

You clearly have no idea how difficult it is for some rape victims to find the courage and confidence to talk to anyone about the ordeal.

BarackPyjama

chickenbutt wrote: »

You clearly have no idea how difficult it is for some rape victims to find the courage and confidence to talk to anyone about the ordeal.

Well if a victim of rape doesn't want to report it or discuss it with anyone, that's their cross to bear sadly. My advice is aimed at women who do decide to seek justice and might be afraid that the authorities won't deal with it properly. If you have legal representation, the investigating Gardaí will be terrified to do anything other than their professional best.

cloud493

If it was as easy as telling a load of intimidating police men about such a horrible experience, I wouldn't have had such a bad time it's not as easy as that. I didn't think 'I want justice' I thought 'I never ever want to think about it again'

Spokes of Glory

"If a girl goes out and gets drunk and falls over ... they are almost demonised in the media, and if they then become a victim, you can see how juries would bring their preconceptions to bear.
"The majority of rape cases are between people who know each other ... I think that is one of the things that jurors find particularly difficult."
Saunders said judges can give advice and directions during a trial, but often this comes too late to make jurors think twice.
"The majority of victims are under 18, a lot have drink or alcohol involved"


These get to the heart of the problem I think. IMO its not so much a question of the juror's prejudice or the Gardai's lack of interest, but the fact that so many rape cases include alcohol as a factor, do not have independent witnesses and therefore depend largely on the testimony of the individuals concerned. Given that the standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt, its asking a lot to of any jury to convict someone of the basis of statements where the victim/accuser may have been drunk by their own admission, and therefore an element of doubt easily introduced.

Spokes

JimiTime

I'd like to parrot the above. As someone who knows a person who was victim of this heinous crime, I've seen the damage it causes first hand, and also the difficulty in making the accusation stick. In the interest of balance, I think its fair to say that everyone in their right mind is appalled at such crimes, but we must also realise how difficult it is to convict a person on the word of of one accuser. Its an unfortunate reality, but women DO need to be careful. Inviting a man in for coffee after a night on the tiles is certainly not 'asking to be raped', but it must be realised, that if anything happens, its likely that you will not be able to prove it was not consensual. As sex is usually done behind closed doors, then whatever the circumstance the rape occurs in, will usually pit one word against another. As disgusting as it is, we must also realise that people lie etc,so we can't simply have a Salem Witch Trial scenario where if someone says 'rape', the accused is simply assumed guilty. People seem reluctant to say 'Women must be wise', thinking that this somehow places blame at their feet. Nothing could be further from the truth. Its simply dealing with the reality that bad people exist, and much like telling someone not to go to a certain place after dark for fear of mugging, its simply a precautionary advice. Of course, being wise is not going to cover every rape scenario, but it certainly removes some common rape scenario's.

Morag

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Here's a tip that I would have thought would be obvious for genuine rape victims - report it to the Gardaí then, when following up on the matter with them, bring a solicitor or some kind of legal representation. This will force the Gardaí to deal with the matter to the letter of the law.

You are expecting that a rape victim will have the money to engage a solicitor and can find one to take them on, when there is no room for legal representation for the victim in the irish courts, they become a piece of living evidence.

Other countries have the possibility for women to sue their attackers and often those cases succeed were criminal cases fail, but again there is not that system here.

Morag

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd like to parrot the above. As someone who knows a person who was victim of this heinous crime, I've seen the damage it causes first hand, and also the difficulty in making the accusation stick. In the interest of balance, I think its fair to say that everyone in their right mind is appalled at such crimes, but we must also realise how difficult it is to convict a person on the word of of one accuser. Its an unfortunate reality, but women DO need to be careful. Inviting a man in for coffee after a night on the tiles is certainly not 'asking to be raped', but it must be realised, that if anything happens, its likely that you will not be able to prove it was not consensual. As sex is usually done behind closed doors, then whatever the circumstance the rape occurs in, will usually pit one word against another. As disgusting as it is, we must also realise that people lie etc,so we can't simply have a Salem Witch Trial scenario where if someone says 'rape', the accused is simply assumed guilty. People seem reluctant to say 'Women must be wise', thinking that this somehow places blame at their feet. Nothing could be further from the truth. Its simply dealing with the reality that bad people exist, and much like telling someone not to go to a certain place after dark for fear of mugging, its simply a precautionary advice. Of course, being wise is not going to cover every rape scenario, but it certainly removes some common rape scenario's.

How do you parse what you have said above with the statics that most women are raped by people they know and trusted?

BarackPyjama

Sharrow wrote: »

You are expecting that a rape victim will have the money to engage a solicitor and can find one to take them on, when there is no room for legal representation for the victim in the irish courts, they become a piece of living evidence.

Yes, it is an assumption on my part that the accuser will have the money to pay a solicitor. Although my suggestion is merely to engage with a solicitor until a charge is properly brought. So not that much time would be required of the solicitor.

Sharrow wrote: »

Other countries have the possibility for women to sue their attackers and often those cases succeed were criminal cases fail, but again there is not that system here.

No, here we have due process. If the accused is guilty of rape, they should be locked up - whatever about being sued. Is the process for suing not the same as bringing a custodial sentence? Either the accused is guilty or innocent?

cdaly_

BarackPyjama wrote: »

No, here we have due process. If the accused is guilty of rape, they should be locked up - whatever about being sued. Is the process for suing not the same as bringing a custodial sentence? Either the accused is guilty or innocent?

No, it's not the same. In a criminal case the outcome depends on 'beyond reasonable doubt' while in a civil case the outcome depends on 'balance of probabilities'. It's easier to succeed on 'balance of probabilities' than on 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

JimiTime

Sharrow wrote: »

How do you parse what you have said above with the statics that most women are raped by people they know and trusted?

Well if you read what I said, I explicitly mentioned that it didn't cover all scenario's. The unfortunate reality about rape, is (again, as I mentioned in my previous post) that there are rarely any witnesses. This means that its one word against another in a lot of cases. I don't like that a rapist can get away with their crime, but the reality is what it is. That reality being that unless there is some good evidence that unwanted sexual intercourse occurred, its one word against another. It is horrible that a rape victim has to go through reliving the moment, being cross examined, maybe even having her reputation being brought into disrepute, but the reality is that someone who is accused of rape has a right to state their case too. I don't really know if it can be handled differently? I believe harsher sentences for those convicted, as well as even harsher sentences again for those found guilty, who in their defence, bring their victims name into disrepute and exentuate the victimes sufferring.

Larleane28

JimiTime wrote: »

Well if you read what I said, I explicitly mentioned that it didn't cover all scenario's. The unfortunate reality about rape, is (again, as I mentioned in my previous post) that there are rarely any witnesses. This means that its one word against another in a lot of cases. I don't like that a rapist can get away with their crime, but the reality is what it is. That reality being that unless there is some good evidence that unwanted sexual intercourse occurred, its one word against another. It is horrible that a rape victim has to go through reliving the moment, being cross examined, maybe even having her reputation being brought into disrepute, but the reality is that someone who is accused of rape has a right to state their case too. I don't really know if it can be handled differently? I believe harsher sentences for those convicted, as well as even harsher sentences again for those found guilty, who in their defence, bring their victims name into disrepute and exentuate the victimes sufferring.

Do we really have to listen to this same tripe every time the issue of rape is raised around here? And while we're at it (as far as broader society is concerned) I would like to know, how much longer are we expected to keep on pretending that sexual assault is not a HIGHLY gendered crime?

FouxDaFaFa

I understand where people are coming from but it would be nice to have a conversation about this for once without someone starting a "but what about all the innocent men" spiel. No-one on this thread has said that we should just lock up everyone accused of rape. Of course it needs to be proven. This thread is for discussing the under-reporting of rape and how it is dealt with once reported and possible things we can do to change this.

Spokes of Glory

Larleane28 wrote: »

Do we really have to listen to this same tripe every time the issue of rape is raised around here? And while we're at it (as far as broader society is concerned) I would like to know, how much longer are we expected to keep on pretending that sexual assault is not a HIGHLY gendered crime?

What tripe ? Being entitled to a defense is hardly tripe. The questions posed are why are many rape cases not prosecuted, and of those that are, why are convictions so hard to get ? The fact that the accuser may be drunk at the time weakens any case where there may be little independent evidence. No prosecutor is going to bring a case to trial where he knows the "reasonable doubt" factor is too great.

If you think the right to a trial is tripe, what other system would you like to see ?

Ickle Magoo

Folks, there has already been clear warning given.

This is The Ladies Lounge - a discussion forum designed for female posters to discuss issues pertinent to THEM, from a female perspective. The topic of this particular thread is myths about rape victims.

Anyone wishing to have a discussion on the judiciary or discuss rape from a male perspective should do so on the relevant forum/s.

Final warning.

Morag

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Is the process for suing not the same as bringing a custodial sentence? Either the accused is guilty or innocent?

No it is not the same, to start with in a civil case the victim has legal presentation in court who is looking after them as their client, and works in their best interest. In a criminal case they have no one to speak up for them, the DPP repents the States best interest.

Crooked Jack

Hey there's a discussion on the legalisation/criminalisation of prostitution in Ireland going on that I think some of you could make a worthy contribution to. it kinda crosses over into this territory a bit.

Ickle Magoo

Crooked Jack - tLL is also not a place to post in random threads in an attempt to round up participants for discussions in other forums.

Please familiarise yourself with the Forum Charter before posting here again.

JimiTime

Larleane28 wrote: »

Do we really have to listen to this same tripe every time the issue of rape is raised around here? And while we're at it (as far as broader society is concerned) I would like to know, how much longer are we expected to keep on pretending that sexual assault is not a HIGHLY gendered crime?

'tripe'? So whats the alternative? Someone reports rape - accused assumed guilty and then sentanced? I mean, be realistic. Rather than ranting, what alternatives do you have? Also, I can't speak for others, but I think it glaringly obvious that the majority of sexual assault is perpetrated by men. I see no evidence of anyone pretending

Morag

I would think that changing the process so it was better would mean more people would report and under go the court process, so that there would be less of a stigma on the victims and less stigma on those who are falsely accused and never get cleared in court.

meganj

There was an opinion piece in todays Irish Times about the 'slut walk' movement http://http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0202/1224311111718.html

The moment was started in response to the comments of a Toronto police officer that if women wanted to avoid being raped they should stop dressing like sluts.

Essentially he used the 'they were asking for it' statement so prevalent sometimes when talking about rape survivors.

I think some people want to blame the survivors. I think it makes them feel safer. If you can point to something that a woman or man did that 'got them raped' then you feel safer in the knowledge that it will never happen to you because you would never put yourself in that place. It's almost like a reflex.

If you look at the US (and I am ashamed to say that I know more about the history of rape in US law then I do here) in the 1980's most states adopted 'the rape shield' law which meant that a survivors previous sexual history could not be used in court. I could not imagine being raped and then having a solicitor bring up every single sexual encounter I had as a way to somehow invalidate what had happened to me. But it does happen.

The recent Listowel case (talked about here quite indepth) where a man was found guilty of rape and members of the public in the court room got up to shake the mans hand. It's disgraceful.

Many survivors talk about the experience of talking about the rape and going through a criminal proceeding as being akin to being raped again. I think the justice system needs to be changed, but I think no matter how we develop our legal system there will always be some sort of blame apportioned to rape survivors.

For people who have never been raped they simply cannot understand the process and I think it does come back to people's desire for simplicity. If you can blame the victim, then you don't need to worry yourself, I think it's why we talk about stranger rape more often then we do rape by people known to the survivor.

Also I think it is important to note that while it may be rare for men to be raped, because of the low reporting rate we have no idea of how prevalent it is. In addition we have no idea how often women rape because once again it often goes unreported (i imagine out of fear that a South Park moment is going to happen).

I think the most important thing we can do to as people (not men/women) is educate ourselves. It's important that young boys/girls learn that no means no, and that if a girl/boy is too drunk/high to say yes that you must take that as a no.

I think both sexes need to bare in mind that no one 'asks' to be raped, that's why it's called rape and not consensual sex and no amount of survivor blaming takes away from the fact that it does happen and when it does people need our support not our 'oh well if you had done this' or 'well if you hadn't been doing that'.

Scanlas The 2nd

Sharrow wrote: »

I would think that changing the process so it was better would mean more people would report and under go the court process, so that there would be less of a stigma on the victims and less stigma on those who are falsely accused and never get cleared in court.

Any suggestions? I can't think of any. Maybe if we made it law put cameras on everyone's head permanently but I can't see that happening.

LegacyUser

I've had to go unregged for this, because this is very recent for me and it's not something I find easy to talk about or deal with, but after seeing yet another of these threads I had to say something.

I felt sick when I saw the thread appear, because I knew it would spiral out of control in the same way all of the others have. And I knew I'd keep reading, I knew I'd keep reading because as much as I tell myself it's not my fault, and as much as other people try to convince me - it only takes a few words to send my world crashing in around me all over again. Knowing something, and making yourself believe it, are 2 entirely different things.

I went to a bar, I had 5 drinks. My drink was spiked. I woke up with no idea where I was, or who I was with - who was on top of me. I didn't know where I was, but I got out, and I wandered - I wandered for what seemed like forever until a guy stopped and asked what happened, told me I was in shock, and said he'd take me home. I thought he'd look after me, that was a mistake. He saw an opportunity and he took it. He took me home, and it all started all over again. I struggle with this, because I'm the common denominator. Two guys, and me. I struggle to accept that it's not my fault.

Yet here you are, all of these people who post in these threads and question it. Do you think it's my fault for going to a club? For having a few drinks? For accepting help when I thought it was all over?

I do, most of the time I do - I can't help it. And you know what the hardest thing is? Worrying that everyone else thinks it too. And you know what's harder than that? Seeing it written down in front of you, and KNOWING there are so many people who do. It f.ucking kills me inside. Every single day. The guilt, the embarrassment, the anger, the hate. Everything.

I'm doing my best. I'm seeing someone who is trying to help me get through it, and to deal with everything. But it's changed me, and it's changed my whole world. I haven't felt 'happy' in so, so long; sometimes I'm scared I'll never feel it again. I either feel so crushed under the weight of my world that I can't see a way out; or else I feel nothing. That's what it's come to - the only way I can survive now is just not to feel at all.

So, you may call me a survivor - but this isn't living, this isn't a life.

I still can't say the word, I can read it here, and I can post this..but I can't say it. But what I can say is this, it's so much more than just that one incident, it's so much more than just an attack on your body - it's an attack on everything that you thought you were, and everything that you thought you knew. It tears you up inside and takes away all of the nuts and bolts that once held you together, it leaves you empty and abandoned..and in pieces.

It's never ok. I don't care what the circumstance, I don't care who said what or who did what, and I don't care what anyone else thinks or says...it's never, never ok.

I'm never going to write about this on here again, but I just hope this makes some people understand a bit more, I hope it makes them think.

Thank you for reading.

JimiTime

Sharrow wrote: »

I would think that changing the process so it was better would mean more people would report and under go the court process, so that there would be less of a stigma on the victims and less stigma on those who are falsely accused and never get cleared in court.

Well thats the issue. What is it that can be done? The above is the ends (Which we all want), but what we need is the means. Has anyone got any realistic suggestions as to what can be done? Thers a lot of 'the system needs to change' etc being said, but very little in terms of suggesting what these changes could be.

Scanlas The 2nd

JimiTime wrote: »

Sharrow wrote: »

I would think that changing the process so it was better would mean more people would report and under go the court process, so that there would be less of a stigma on the victims and less stigma on those who are falsely accused and never get cleared in court.

Well thats the issue. What is it that can be done? The above is the ends (Which we all want), but what we need is the means. Has anyone got any realistic suggestions as to what can be done? Thers a lot of 'the system needs to change' etc being said, but very little in terms of suggesting what these changes could be.

Sometimes you have to accept that all you can do is minimise the suffering. No matter what there will always be rapists getting away free and there will always be innocent men who go to prison for false rape accusations. That's just tough. Same with any crime, there will always be innocent people in prison and guilty people free. Life's not fair and if you don't accept that harsh reality any many others you will make life harder for yourself.

Scanlas The 2nd

JimiTime wrote: »

Sharrow wrote: »

I would think that changing the process so it was better would mean more people would report and under go the court process, so that there would be less of a stigma on the victims and less stigma on those who are falsely accused and never get cleared in court.

Well thats the issue. What is it that can be done? The above is the ends (Which we all want), but what we need is the means. Has anyone got any realistic suggestions as to what can be done? Thers a lot of 'the system needs to change' etc being said, but very little in terms of suggesting what these changes could be.

Sometimes you have to accept that all you can do is minimise the suffering. No matter what there will always be rapists getting away free and there will always be innocent men who go to prison for false rape accusations. That's just tough. Same with any crime, there will always be innocent people in prison and guilty people free. Life's not fair and if you don't accept that harsh reality any many others you will make life harder for yourself.

BarackPyjama

There seems to be a lot of talk of 'victim blaming' but the last time I checked, rapists and sexual predators were a fairly ostracised group in society. Up there with murderers on the scumbag scale. In the eyes of the law and society in general though, a victim can only be seen as a victim when it's been proven in a court of law and someone has been prosecuted for victimising them.

It's a sad story that there are so many genuine victims of rape who will never report it or never seek a conviction for their assailants. If the Gardaí and the judicial system are part of the problem then things seriously need to change. If it's a case that women are simply unwilling to pursue a prosecution for fear of reliving the ordeal - well then sadly it'll continue. Because the sociopaths who perpetrate the crime of rape will know they can get away with it.

Morag

We don't have the rape shield laws, or advocates for the victim in court, those two plus dealing with the case in a timely fashion so it is not 3 years later before there is a court date will also help.

Dudess

Just because the focus of this thread is on the victims doesn't mean there is lack of acknowledgement that false accusations can and do happen. I'm sure everyone here agrees false accusation of rape is a despicable and life-shattering thing to make.

BarackPyjama

Is there any merit to rape cases not being played out in public? Or any dangers to taking them out of public scrutiny? Maybe I'm wrong, but perhaps, for the benefit or both the accusers and the accused, that these cases be anonymous to the press and public until a verdict is reached?

Morag

That is how it is done, the accused name is not mentioned until they are convicted and the victims is with held unless they wish it known. These are the rules media outlets must abide by, but that doesn't stop friends family and local communities talking.

Lavinia Kerwick was the first victim to wave her right to anonymity.

http://www.irishtimes.com/indepth/sisters/agents-of-change.html

In July 1992, William Conry, an 18-year-old man who had pleaded guilty to rape, walked free from court after the judge adjourned sentence for a year to “give him a chance”. The victim, Lavinia Kerwick, who was 19, sobbed and screamed that Conry had “got away with it”. She then did something that had never been done before. Kerwick sacrificed her anonymity in order to talk about the case, the first time a woman in Ireland who had been raped chose to do so. The controversy that followed did a great deal to change public attitudes to rape and criminal justice. Kerwick was subsequently hospitalised as a result of anorexia. In July 1992 she met with minister for justice Padraig Flynn who promised her that “what happened to me will never happen to any other woman in the future”. The Criminal Justice Bill which emerged a few months later allowed the DPP to appeal against what he considered unduly lenient sentences. It also instructed courts to consider the long-term impact of the crime on the victim. In July 1993, Conry was brought back to court for sentencing. He received a suspended sentence of nine years, again creating great distress for Kerwick.

That was 20 years ago, at the time it was shocking and front page news, that she spoke about what happened to her. Unfortunately not enough has changed. Another brave woman did the same in 2007

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1219/shannonm.html?rss

The Court of Criminal Appeal has ruled that a Central Criminal Court judge erred in principle when he imposed a non-custodial sentence on a man found guilty of rape.

Mary Shannon, a 33-year-old mother of three, was raped as she slept in her bed in May 2005.

She waived her right to anonymity after Adam Keane, from Barnageeha in Daragh, was initially given a three-year suspended sentence for the attack.

He was later ordered to serve the sentence after making what the trial judge described as a 'triumphalist gesture' against Ms Shannon. Keane flicked a cigarette at Mary Shannon after both took the train home to Ennis after the original sentencing.

Today, Keane had his sentence increased from three to ten years following an appeal from the DPP.

In its 28-page written judgment the court found that the appeal of the leniency of the sentence by the DPP was well founded.

It said that the well-established principle that a custodial sentence be handed down for the offence of rape should have been followed.

The judgment also found that Mr Justice Paul Carney did not attach sufficient weight to the location and circumstances in which the rape took place.

It stated that during sentencing there was no reference on the impact of the crime on the victim and her family also it says the fact she felt she was driven out of her own home appears to have been ignored by the trial judge.

Ms Shannon was in court with her family when the judgment was handed down.

Afterwards, Mary Shannon's sister, Sarah, said she was hopeful the case would insure that no other convicted rapist would walk from court without a custodial sentence.

The Court suspended three years of the ten-year sentence. Adam Keane will be subject to one year's post-release supervision.