Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] Poll Reset

bgrizzley · 08-04-2012 4:56pm

alastair wrote: »

What service do you get for your USC?

i've never thought about it Al, cause it does'nt bother me, (not being a tax on my home) but now that you say it, i do think they should revise the name and call it a UST

alastair · 08-04-2012 4:56pm

hondasam wrote: »

I must be having my blonde moment of the day because it amounts to the same thing to me.
Household charge is a tax to fund local services Yes or No?
If the answer is Yes then everyone should be paying it.

Should you be paying commercial rates then? - because that goes to the local authority too, and if it's levied on some, surely it should be levied on all. :rolleyes:

hondasam · 08-04-2012 4:58pm

alastair wrote: »

The unfinished estate exemption is only there because the charge is currently administered by the local authority - who aren't in any position to levy a tax on a property they can't service.

They cannot service my property either so why am I paying?

Just as there are very wealthy taxpayers who don't drive, and are therefore not liable for motor taxation.

I don't agree with the motor tax comparison, even if you never drove you still use the roads as a passenger, public transport etc.

gerryo777 · 08-04-2012 4:58pm

hondasam wrote: »

I must be having my blonde moment of the day because it amounts to the same thing to me.
Household charge is a tax to fund local services Yes or No?
If the answer is Yes then everyone should be paying it.

I wonder if they brought in a 'catholic' tax here would the pro-taxers agree with it.
You know, only catholics would pay and all other faiths don't.

Would that type of discrimination be allowed?

bgrizzley · 08-04-2012 5:02pm

alastair wrote: »

Should you be paying commercial rates then? - because that goes to the local authority too, and if it's levied on some, surely it should be levied on all. :rolleyes:

at least you have a choice with commercial rates, you can pay or close your business. you cant sell the roof over your kids heads(not realisically anyway).

hondasam · 08-04-2012 5:03pm

alastair wrote: »

Should you be paying commercial rates then? - because that goes to the local authority too, and if it's levied on some, surely it should be levied on all. :rolleyes:

Commercial premises get more benefits out of it, don't they? Am I not paying all ready if I use these premises, say restaurants, shops etc?

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:03pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

You just said its a tax on home owners for owning property, not a charge for services. Unfinished estate owners still own thier house.

It is. I explained my there's an exemption for unfinished estates.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Twisting again. The question was, how does a person that bought a home, have more means to pay extra taxes, than a non home owner? You seem to believe they have. Explain how?

What makes you believe that a car owner has more means to pay for extra taxes than a non-motorist?

The general rule is that those who have an asset (a house) have wealth contained in that asset. The vast majority of house owners are either mortgage-free or in positive equity. 72% of all wealth in this country is in property, and most of that is residential.

A property tax that allows for an ability-to-pay mechanism is a good taxation foundation for the post-stamp-duty era. Particularly since consumption taxes don't have much room for growth, and increased income taxes would probably stifle the jobs market.

Bullseye1 · 08-04-2012 5:05pm

hondasam wrote: »

Commercial premises get more benefits out of it, don't they? Am I not paying all ready if I use these premises, say restaurants, shops etc?

They get little or nothing for their rates. And they pay thousands. Oh they get public lighting when their shops are normally closed.

They pay water rates too. They pay for their own rubbish collection and many of them have to sign up for repac.

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:06pm

hondasam wrote: »

Commercial premises get more benefits out of it, don't they? Am I not paying all ready if I use these premises, say restaurants, shops etc?

They often don't. Are you?

Bruthal · 08-04-2012 5:06pm

alastair wrote: »

The unfinished estate exemption is only there because the charge is currently administered by the local authority - who aren't in any position to levy a tax on a property they can't service.

So, above is your reasoning for unfinished estates exemption.

But you still insist on the wealth tax idea.

alastair wrote: »

Bingo! It's a wealth tax.

Too much twisting of words alastair. By your wealth definition, there is no reason the unfinished estates should be exempt.

And how does the local authority "service" houses that have their own well, septic tank etc, compared to not being able to service unfinished estate houses?

And i`d still like the 100k negative equity wealth explained clearly. You wont be able to tell how they are wealthy imo. But try anyway?

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:07pm

hondasam wrote: »

They cannot service my property either so why am I paying?

No idea.

hondasam wrote: »

I don't agree with the motor tax comparison, even if you never drove you still use the roads as a passenger, public transport etc.

Motor tax is no more about maintaining roads than VAT is.

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:12pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

So, above is your reasoning for unfinished estates exemption.

But you still insist on the wealth tax idea.

Too much twisting of words alastair. By your wealth definition, there is no reason the unfinished estates should be exempt.

And how does the local authority "service" houses that have their own well, septic tank etc, compared to not being able to service unfinished estate houses?

And i`d still like the 100k negative equity wealth explained clearly. You wont be able to tell how they are wealthy imo. But try anyway?

The exemption is (as I've already stated) because of the mechanism that they've chosen to apply for collection of the revenue - the local authorities.

Regardless of what you paid for a property - there is still it's market value as an asset. A 200 grand house that you paid 300 grand for, still has 200 grand of wealth stored in it.

hondasam · 08-04-2012 5:13pm

alastair wrote: »

No idea.

That's the reason I'm not paying, you finally get it.

Motor tax is no more about maintaining roads than VAT is.

Household charge is no more about paying for local services than VAT is either, you are finally coming round to realisation of this.

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:15pm

hondasam wrote: »

Household charge is no more about paying for local services than VAT is either, you are finally coming round to realisation of this.

Nope.

100% of HC goes into LA funding.
?% of Motor tax (or VAT) goes into any given sector of public spending.

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:16pm

hondasam wrote: »

That's the reason I'm not paying, you finally get it.

I know nothing about your estate's liability or otherwise. You could have a case or not.

bgrizzley · 08-04-2012 5:16pm

if the government really believed that the family home was an asset(or wealth if you like) wouldnt they charge CGT on its sale?

Bruthal · 08-04-2012 5:17pm

alastair wrote: »

What makes you believe that a car owner has more means to pay for extra taxes than a non-motorist?

It was you that said the home owner has extra wealth. Presumably that puts them in a better position to pay extra taxes, than a car owner, if simply buying a home gives instant wealth like you believe it does.

So, yet again, where would a home owner get this extra money to pay extra taxes. Answer that question. If you can. You said its a wealth tax. So explain how the person that bought the house to live in, has more money than the non home owner.

You cant answer i believe, its that simple.

hondasam · 08-04-2012 5:17pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

They pay water rates too. They pay for their own rubbish collection and many of them have to sign up for repac.

I pay for my own rubbish too, I cannot pass this payment onto anyone. Commercial premises factor rates in the price they charge the customer I would imagine. I'm not having a go at shops, I know how hard it is for them at the moment.

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:19pm

bgrizzley wrote: »

if the government really believed that the family home was an asset(or wealth if you like) wouldnt they charge CGT on its sale?

CGT isn't liable on all assets. That doesn't mean it's not an asset.

hondasam · 08-04-2012 5:20pm

[QUOTE=alastair;78016516[/QUOTE]

I know nothing about your estate's liability or otherwise. You could have a case or not.[/QUOTE]

I do not live in an estate. I do not have public footpaths or lighting, these are the joys of living in the sticks. I paid to get water,esb, eircom connected and don't see why I should pay again.

Bruthal · 08-04-2012 5:22pm

hondasam wrote: »

I do not live in an estate. I do not have public footpaths or lighting, these are the joys of living in the sticks. I paid to get water,esb, eircom connected and don't see why I should pay again.

Because your loaded sam, just like your fellow home owner here. We are minted according to alastair.

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:22pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

It was you that said the home owner has extra wealth. Presumably that puts them in a better position to pay extra taxes, than a car owner, if simply buying a home gives instant wealth like you believe it does.

So, yet again, where would a home owner get this extra money to pay extra taxes. Answer that question. If you can. You said its a wealth tax. So explain how the person that bought the house to live in, has more money than the non home owner.

You cant answer i believe, its that simple.

I never said they had more money - I said they had an asset - with wealth stored in it. Everywhere else manages to find the money for property taxes or rates - I doubt we're unqiue in not having the ability to pay the same.

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:23pm

hondasam wrote: »

I know nothing about your estate's liability or otherwise. You could have a case or not.

I do not live in an estate.[/QUOTE]

So - you do get local authority services. No worries then - you're liable.

Bruthal · 08-04-2012 5:24pm

alastair wrote: »

I never said they had more money - I said they had an asset - with wealth stored in it. Everywhere else manages to find the money for property taxes or rates - I doubt we're unqiue in not having the ability to pay the same.

I didnt ask how everyone else manages to find anything, i asked how sommeone that buys a house tomorrow, suddenly has extra money to pay extra tax, compared to last week. Simple question really.

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:25pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

I didnt ask how everyone else manages to find anything, i asked how sommeone that buys a house tomorrow, suddenly has extra money to pay extra tax, compared to last week. Simple question really.

They factor it into the cost - simple really.

Bruthal · 08-04-2012 5:25pm

alastair wrote: »

I do not live in an estate.

So - you do get local authority services. No worries then - you're liable.[/QUOTE]

Houses in unfinished estates get services.

bgrizzley · 08-04-2012 5:26pm

alastair wrote: »

CGT isn't liable on all assets. That doesn't mean it's not an asset.

have you an opinion as to why the family home isnt CGT taxable(asset or not aside)?

i could have a house worth 5 million, sell it and buy somewhere for 200k.
4.8m for Pina coladas, thats a lot of CGT

alastair · 08-04-2012 5:26pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Houses in unfinished estates get services.

Yep - but they're also uniquely in a legal limbo with the local authorities.

hondasam · 08-04-2012 5:28pm

Lads can ye quote properly. It's getting messy. Alistair it's your fault, you just trying to confuse us again.

hondasam · 08-04-2012 5:29pm

alastair wrote: »

So - you do get local authority services. No worries then - you're liable.

What do I get? this should be good.

Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] Poll Reset