The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 09:51PM

Cossax said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Yes, it now accepts evolution - of a sort. It insists Adam & Eve are real and I assume it holds to much of the Genesis account subsequent to them. So no humans descended from other than that one pair - hardly in line with the evolutionary scenario, as far as I understand it.

No, one is an expansion of the other. Two accounts, but complimentary rather than contradictory.
One says humans were made last, the other says man was made before all the other animals. Doesn't sound very complimentary to me.

Depends on how one reads it. If the animals have already been created and are then brought to Adam, it squares with the Genesis 1 account. Otherwise the accounts directly contradict. Is it likely that an author would place such a plain contradiction immediately following his first account?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I suppose you can say that with a clear conscience - if you presuppose that anything raised against evolution is ipso facto non-scientific.

But the fact remains that well-qualified scientists research and publish lots of scientific articles that show evolution is suspect and that creationism is at least an alternative theory. For example, check this journal:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arj
There's nothing very scientific about it.

The rationalwiki article you linked to is the normal evolutionary propaganda. Attacking fellow-scientists in such a manner is not of course confined to attacks on creationists, but is common enough in inter-evolutionary spats. Ego is a big problem for humans, and scientific education does nothing to lessen it.

*******************************************************************
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

wolfsbane · 26-03-2012 09:55PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

I always think that the tension between two opposing truths is where faith lies.
Slight of mind? not at all, Believing that people who hold evolution to be true are damned or that aliens are demonic? Now thats slight of mind, in the sense of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slight

So you know for sure aliens (if there are any) are not demonic? Please share with us your grounds for this belief.

You belief in opposing truths says a lot.

********************************************************************
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Wh1stler · 26-03-2012 11:11PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It gets better and better; the God of truth will lie?

You really must make up your mind. Or God must.

Cossax · 27-03-2012 01:02AM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Cossax said:

Depends on how one reads it. If the animals have already been created and are then brought to Adam, it squares with the Genesis 1 account. Otherwise the accounts directly contradict. Is it likely that an author would place such a plain contradiction immediately following his first account?

Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Fairly unambiguous I'd have thought. I don't know why it'd be contradictory, maybe different writers/editors, but it is contradictory.

wolfsbane wrote: »

The rationalwiki article you linked to is the normal evolutionary propaganda. Attacking fellow-scientists in such a manner is not of course confined to attacks on creationists, but is common enough in inter-evolutionary spats. Ego is a big problem for humans, and scientific education does nothing to lessen it.

Evolutionary propaganda? Really?
There is nothing scientific about creationism, it is something entirely built on the Bible/faith - the least those who believe in it could do is be upfront about that instead of trying to coat it in some pseudo-scientific language.

Wh1stler · 27-03-2012 03:12AM

wolfsbane wrote: »

So you know for sure aliens (if there are any) are not demonic? Please share with us your grounds for this belief.

If we do have visitors, I hope that you are not part of the welcoming committee.

Sin City · 27-03-2012 08:18AM

wolfsbane wrote: »

tommy2bad wrote: »

I always think that the tension between two opposing truths is where faith lies.
Slight of mind? not at all, Believing that people who hold evolution to be true are damned or that aliens are demonic? Now thats slight of mind, in the sense of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slight

So you know for sure aliens (if there are any) are not demonic? Please share with us your grounds for this belief.

You belief in opposing truths says a lot.

********************************************************************
[COLOR="Blue"]2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/COLOR]

why would aliens be demonic?

I mean technicaly wouldnt God be classed as an alien?

lmaopml · 27-03-2012 10:22AM

Zombrex wrote: »

Personally I think Nethanderals should have destroyed the human centric Christian view of the universe, but to each their own.

Just a tad extreme..:pac:

We're a while off from discovering sentient life - any life really....So I wouldn't worry too much about it. If we discover alien neanderthals somewhere out there you could always emigrate..:P

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 10:37AM

wolfsbane wrote: »

So the picture could have used a shrub instead of a cedar? Don't you think size was the point? All the other aspects highlighted the magnificence of the beast. Waving its tail like a twig doesn't do much for that.

*********************************************************************
Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

So it moves its tail like something that doesn't move? And you think that makes more sense?

'The dog wagged his tail like a mountain'? LOL

Or perhaps it is actually descriptive, and describes how a rhinoceros or hippopotamus flicks its tail like a twitching tree branch?

This introduces a new big problem for you - if we accept that the animal is described using figurative language (as you claim) then all of your other claims about the description must surely be considered figurative too, while you have been claiming them to be factual.

So it either describes a rhino/hippo, or the whole thing is just an exercise in figurative language that could be describing anything.

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 10:40AM

wolfsbane wrote: »

So you know for sure aliens (if there are any) are not demonic? Please share with us your grounds for this belief.

You belief in opposing truths says a lot.

********************************************************************
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This idea has already been thrashed out by author James Blish in a book called A Case of Conscience. You should read it.

tommy2bad · 27-03-2012 11:36AM

Many reacted negatively to the story, but surprisingly few educated Catholics were among them. One even sent James Blish a copy of the actual Church guidelines for dealing with extraterrestrials.

Thats from the wiki link that Monty Burnz posted;
The RCC have guidelines for extraterrestrials,:eek: too much time on their hands.....

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 12:58PM

lmaopml wrote: »

Just a tad extreme..:pac:

We're a while off from discovering sentient life - any life really....So I wouldn't worry too much about it. If we discover alien neanderthals somewhere out there you could always emigrate..:P

Er, not sure you quite understood the point I was making. We have already discovered non-human sentient life, it is just extinct now. Not mentioned in the Bible, oddly enough.

Festus · 27-03-2012 01:34PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The example was at the quantum level, not the laser stuff. I learned how lasers worked when I was 10, but thanks for the links.

So how about addressing the causeless events that occur in quantum mechanics, without the (bizarre) defence that it doesn't count because it is small?

Define quantum mechanics. Would you agree that it is mathematical?

It's not that it doesn't account because it is small. It doesn't count because it does not extrapolate.
You are presenting a argument based on the appearance and disappearance of "stuff" from "nothing" based on probablility and statistics and described by some very exotic mathematics.

To put it bluntly quantum mechanics while a very interesting and very valid science it is conceptual. What you are presenting is an observation and a explanation from quantum thoery.
That the effects you are describing are observable and measurable is as a result of the cause that the universe exists.
However there is a big problem with what you are suggesting. Time.
If you want your pseudoscience to stick you are going to have to prove that time existed along with something non-empty before the big bang.

So we are back to square one. What caused the Universe to exist in the first place? The Big Bang.
What caused the Big Bang?

Festus · 27-03-2012 01:38PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Er, not sure you quite understood the point I was making. We have already discovered non-human sentient life, it is just extinct now. Not mentioned in the Bible, oddly enough.

Citations please? And do note that if the genus is homo then the classification would be human.

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 01:49PM

Festus wrote: »

Citations please? And do note that if the genus is homo then the classification would be human.

No, humans are Homo sapiens. Homo neanderthalensis are Neanderthals. Different species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_neanderthalensis

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 03:50PM

Festus wrote: »

So we are back to square one. What caused the Universe to exist in the first place? The Big Bang.
What caused the Big Bang?

Quick phone answer to your post: what caused God? We already know that you can accept that things can happen without a cause, otherwise you would not believe in a causeless God: therefore this is as big a problem for your argument as it is for that of science.

Festus · 27-03-2012 04:27PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Quick phone answer to your post: what caused God? We already know that you can accept that things can happen without a cause, otherwise you would not believe in a causeless God: therefore this is as big a problem for your argument as it is for that of science.

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

Festus · 27-03-2012 04:30PM

Zombrex wrote: »

No, humans are Homo sapiens. Homo neanderthalensis are Neanderthals. Different species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_neanderthalensis

Perhaps you missed this line - it's near the start:

Neanderthals are classified either as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate human species (Homo neanderthalensis)

So you see - Human

Now, what other non human sentient beings did you have in mind?

Or are you confusing Star Trek with real life again.

Morbert · 27-03-2012 04:34PM

Festus wrote: »

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

Why is there a God rather than nothing?

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 04:41PM

Festus wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Quick phone answer to your post: what caused God? We already know that you can accept that things can happen without a cause, otherwise you would not believe in a causeless God: therefore this is as big a problem for your argument as it is for that of science.

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

Silly argument. You are begging the question as to how God (or Gods) exist without a beginning, and are further assuming that the universe has a beginning.

Festus · 27-03-2012 04:42PM

Morbert wrote: »

Why is there a God rather than nothing?

Because the universe had a beginning

Festus · 27-03-2012 04:43PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Silly argument. You are begging the question as to how God (or Gods) exist without a beginning, and are further assuming that the universe has a beginning.

Prove the universe had no beginning.

HamletOrHecuba · 27-03-2012 04:52PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

The RCC have guidelines for extraterrestrials,:eek: too much time on their hands.....

Are you serious?

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 04:58PM

Festus wrote: »

So you see - Human

Are homo neanderthalens homo sapiens? (hint, the clue is in the name).

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 04:59PM

Festus wrote: »

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

Can you detail how something can have a cause without time itself existing.

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 05:00PM

Festus wrote: »

Because the universe had a beginning

So God exists so he can create the universe? Who decided that?

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 05:02PM

Festus wrote: »

Everything that has a begining has a cause.

What are you basing that on?

Can you detail something that began to exist and then explain what caused this to happen. Something that actually began to exist, not a simple re-arrangement of things that already existed to form a new type of thing.

Monty Burnz · 27-03-2012 05:15PM

Festus wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Silly argument. You are begging the question as to how God (or Gods) exist without a beginning, and are further assuming that the universe has a beginning.

Prove the universe had no beginning.

Prove that it did.
Prove that God exists.

Very silly argument, in my opinion.

Morbert · 27-03-2012 06:02PM

Festus wrote: »

Because the universe had a beginning

The beginning of the universe explains why there is a God rather than nothing?

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 07:00PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This idea has already been thrashed out by author James Blish in a book called A Case of Conscience. You should read it.

Read it about 50 years ago.

Doesn't deal with the possibility that aliens are actually common or garden demons, as far as I can remember.

And that is the sole possibility, given the Scriptural background, in my opinion. Those of you who believe in evolution have a logical reason to expect material aliens in abundance.

******************************************************************
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

wolfsbane · 27-03-2012 07:12PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So it moves its tail like something that doesn't move? And you think that makes more sense?

'The dog wagged his tail like a mountain'? LOL

Or perhaps it is actually descriptive, and describes how a rhinoceros or hippopotamus flicks its tail like a twitching tree branch?

This introduces a new big problem for you - if we accept that the animal is described using figurative language (as you claim) then all of your other claims about the description must surely be considered figurative too, while you have been claiming them to be factual.

So it either describes a rhino/hippo, or the whole thing is just an exercise in figurative language that could be describing anything.

Yes, a tail like a cedar in size is moved by the beast. Seems plain enough to me.

So use of metaphor in a description must mean all of the thing described is metaphorical??? 'Ali danced like a butterfly, but stung like a bee' - can't be speaking of a real man???

*******************************************************************
Job 40:“Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 See now, his strength is in his hips,
And his power is in his stomach muscles.
17 He moves his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.
18 His bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Comments