Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Options
1…179180182184185…334

Comments

  • Options
    #5432
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    will ye be putting a tax on it if i buy it?

    Of course, as it must have equity in it.


  • Options
    #5433
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    jonnygee wrote: »
    I cant decide whether to register or not. I can pay the 100 euros all right at the moment but im not so confident that i can pay 500 or 1000 euros in years to come. I have no wages coming in and am not recieving any social welfare due to a redundancy payment putting me above means test limits.
    Also I know many people , family and friends who definetly cant afford to pay any more, they have no more disposable income to give this goverment and i feel that registering and paying would be a selfish thing for me to do.
    Why does the government not understand that many of it,s citizens are on the borderline of poverty right now. Why does Phil Hogan insist that he will take it off you regardless of whether you can afford it or not.


    make your stand mate, im in a similar position. and i know i wont be able to pay this morally wrong, unjust and unfair tax on my home in a couple of years time when these feckin gobsh1tes start jackin it up to pay some fcukers gambling debts.
    you wont be alone, half the country is standing with you.......


  • Options
    #5434
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    , half the country is standing with you.......
    Have you paid your €5 to the campaign?


  • Options
    #5435
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    They don't own them. Same story with the car owning citizens. You do get the whole logic thing, yeah?

    Well you dont anyway. The equity expert that does not know what equity is.

    Your a yes man, but you dont understand why you are.


  • Options
    #5436
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    If i had a fiver DV, i'd have gone out for a pint tonight. The beauty of this protest is that i dont have to do a thing except not pay..............


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5437
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    firstly most property tax systems (not 100 euro registration arrangements) make some allowance for ability to pay, so family of five fill in the appropriate exemption forms

    Ability to pay? Why would they be given that concession? I thought you said home owners were wealthy. Make up your mind.
    and secondly - there's always renting. A four bedroom house would pay for a lot of rental years.
    Yea, sell the house, pay off the 50k you still owe, and rent away.

    O wait, if they have positive equity, they are wealthy, why the need to sell?

    Maybe this time you will explain that?????. Go on, explain? Home owning means wealthy, why the need to sell?


  • Options
    #5438
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    If i had a fiver DV, i'd have gone out for a pint tonight
    Its this level of commitment that has the campaign failed.
    You won't even pay for a single poster.


  • Options
    #5439
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    so i'm uncommitted because im broke?


  • Options
    #5440
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    so i'm uncommitted because im broke?

    If you dont register, you are committed enough.


  • Options
    #5441
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    From Phil Hogan, the intellect that came up with the household charge.....
    "(On) Wednesday, August 24, I and my partner for the past 26 years, Mairtin Mac Cormaic, and a number of other people arrived at Ballyconneely Golf Club in Connemara. As we were entering the clubhouse we met the Minister for the Environment, Mr Phil Hogan, and we greeted each other cordially."


    Ms O'Connell who owns a number of buy-to-let properties, said she "took the opportunity to say to him that I hoped he would not 'screw' property owners in promised legislation.
    "He replied in a loud voice: 'I have no problem screwing you. Hasn't Mairtin been screwing you for years.' Then he turned his back on me and said: 'Business tomorrow.'


    "I was unable to attend the Oireachtas Golf Society dinner arranged for that night in Ballyconneely because I was afraid I might meet Mr Hogan once more. I did not sleep that night and have had difficulty sleeping since then. "


    Ms O'Connell, who recently celebrated her 70th birthday, pointed out to Mr Kenny that she had been "a loyal member of Fine Gael all my adult life, first in Limerick, later in Dublin and now in Co Clare. As you know I worked for several years in the Dail as secretary to a number of members of the Oireachtas, during which time I also worked as administrator for John Bruton when he was leader of Fine Gael.


    "Nobody deserves this kind of outrageous dismissal. Not least from a member of the Government. I have no intention of letting this matter die.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-apologises-for-crude-sexual-insult-3053882.html?start=3


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5442
    Laisurg
    Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Laisurg


    black francis wrote: »
    I'll pay.

    The usual left-wing loonies in the Dail jumping up and down about this are a joke.

    I guess they would prefer if we cut social welfare, or health or education or public service pay?

    Course not - they just want to stir sh;t up without actually proposing any alternatives.

    We should have had a property tax introduced decades ago, instead of depending on cyclical taxes like VAT and Stamp Duty.

    This country needs to get its **** together by establishing a broad and robust tax base - water and property tax are part of this.

    I take it you're doing pretty well financially so? :pac:


  • Options
    #5443
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    mikom wrote: »
    From Phil Hogan, the intellect that came up with the household charge.....
    As much as I disagree in principle with the idea of a property tax, I wish people like you would realise the irrelevance of contributions like this, which offer little more than a belittling of the character of a Minister than they do of the absurdity of the incoming property tax/ domestic rates/ household charge.

    Phil Hogan was wrong to engage in an exchange like the above, which he seems to admit. But that has nothing to do with the household charge, it is a silly diversion in a question that has "No" written all over it in terms of well known macroeconomic theory.


  • Options
    #5444
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Dammit the yes's are creeping up :(

    If this continues (in the real world) then the tipping point will happen if say 60%+ pay up, this will then leave the 40% in a precarious position?


  • Options
    #5445
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    If you dont register, you are committed enough.
    The campaign have promised to pay for legal representation for anyone who is brought to court.
    They haven't said how many people have registered with them and paid the fiver so its not at all clear if they can fulfill this promise. Its all very well to be committed, but when the sh1t hits the fan, people are going to be left high and dry by the campaign.


  • Options
    #5446
    jack67
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭jack67


    dvpower wrote: »
    Have you paid your €5 to the campaign?


    yes;)


  • Options
    #5447
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Dammit the yes's are creeping up :(

    If this continues (in the real world) then the tipping point will happen if say 60%+ pay up, this will then leave the 40% in a precarious position?
    Once a tipping point is reached, there will be mass compliance.

    The No campaign needs to win early or it will fail.


  • Options
    #5448
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    jack67 wrote: »
    yes;)
    Good for you.
    Have you wondered why they aren't releasing the numbers of people like you? Its a key indicator of the strength of the campaign?


  • Options
    #5449
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Well you dont anyway. The equity expert that does not know what equity is.

    Your a yes man, but you dont understand why you are.

    Repeating the same nonsense over and over doesn't make it any more true. The tax is a wealth tax, and the wealth is in the equity in the property. Maybe 200,000 households are currently in negative equity, the tax involves 1.6 million households. The tax isn't applied to a percentage of properties that are in negative equity - ghost estates. Many who are currently in negative equity are only so on a moderate basis, and won't be so over the mid-term. The progressive nature of a well-structured property tax isn't somehow different (unjust) in Ireland, just because you'd rather not have to pay it.


  • Options
    #5450
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Ability to pay? Why would they be given that concession? I thought you said home owners were wealthy. Make up your mind.


    Yea, sell the house, pay off the 50k you still owe, and rent away.

    O wait, if they have positive equity, they are wealthy, why the need to sell?

    Maybe this time you will explain that?????. Go on, explain? Home owning means wealthy, why the need to sell?

    I'm not clear what part of wealth in property you're missing. If you can liquidate an asset, there's wealth in it.


  • Options
    #5451
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    dvpower wrote: »
    Good for you.
    Have you wondered why they aren't releasing the numbers of people like you? Its a key indicator of the strength of the campaign?



    a bit like releasing the numbers of those registered, who have paid, versus those who are exempt...............


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5452
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,441 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    dvpower wrote: »
    But they don't need to convict everyone. They may bring a few cases to make examples, and when these people get large fines (I think the legislation allows for a €2500 fine), others will fall into line.

    Hoping for safety in numbers is a risky strategy. You really need the charge to fail at the outset, otherwise I can see no reasonable way of avoiding it.

    Sorry it took so long to reply.

    Anyway, I do get your logic. The idea of not paying cause no one else is does depend on everyone else not paying.

    But the same could be said for internet downloading and piracy of music, movies and other things; a lot of people participate in the illegal activity because very few people are ever prosecuted for it. Every now and again, someone gets hit hard, but this doesnt make others "fall in line". People, rather, think that because they are only going after 1 in a 1000, then there's a safe probability that they won't be that 1 person, but rather be one of the 999 others.

    Yeah, there's the possibility that everyone gets scared. But I find that more often than not in this country, people maintain a "It will never happen to me" attitude. I just think that given the huge numbers of people who aren't even registering for this, the people will remain united. This isn't a large minority who are sticking together and seeing what happens; it's a stable majority (at least, that's my understand based on the figures I've heard). Falling in line is only an issue when the people who are breaking the law are in an easily targeted, small group. That doesn't apply to people not wanting to pay this charge...


  • Options
    #5453
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    a bit like releasing the numbers of those registered, who have paid versus those who are exempt...............

    This seems so much like grasping at straws. It doesn't really make any difference what the numbers are at deadline - the govt have the will, the means, and the need to enforce the tax. If you don't like this particular tax policy, then you make your feelings known next election. The need for making up the shortfall in our revenues trumps the ill will that they know is generated by increased taxation.


  • Options
    #5454
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    The trouble'n'strife "works" for the local authority so I have no say in the matter :o

    But I do think a massive problem in collecting this tax would be a good thing - anything that hastens the end of the "bail-out" scam and causes political problems for the current Regime of Liars is to be heartily welcomed.

    I was wondering about the Irish economy "taking off like a rocket" (as per the Liar-in-Chief yesterday). A lot of rockets explode before reaching orbit - but I guess this one will merely run out of hot air at about 35km and fall back to Earth - hopefully landing on the Baldy Head. :cool:


  • Options
    #5455
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Repeating the same nonsense over and over doesn't make it any more true. The tax is a wealth tax, and the wealth is in the equity in the property. Maybe 200,000 households are currently in negative equity, the tax involves 1.6 million households. The tax isn't applied to a percentage of properties that are in negative equity - ghost estates.
    The bit in bold, that has nothing to do with equity, thats estates that are unfinished. A house having negative equity is not exempt. More confusion on your part.
    Many who are currently in negative equity are only so on a moderate basis, and won't be so over the mid-term. The progressive nature of a well-structured property tax isn't somehow different (unjust) in Ireland, just because you'd rather not have to pay it.

    So a person €1000 in negative equity, pays the property tax. A person €150,000 negative equity pays the property charge. A person €50,000 in equity pays the property charge.

    Unlike you, im not seeing where this equity comes into it. You see the equity as wealth, you said the other day that a house with negative equity only had the negative equity in the mortgage itself, and the house still had equity. A statement that shows you are clueless about equity. No doubt you have since looked up what equity means, and now say most with negative equity will be in positive equity soon.


    And I have to repeat, as you have not explained how its a wealth tax.

    You directly claimed home owners are wealty.

    I asked you to explain. Im still waiting. Its an extremely simple question. How is a family in their home, on social welfare wealthy?

    You cant answer it. Its a property tax. Equity, for the 50th time, is absolutely nothing to do with this. Nothing.

    It will be based on market value. Market value has absolutely nothing to do with equity with regards to this tax. And equity is not wealth.

    As you cant answer, i invite any of the other posters here, to show how this is a wealth tax?

    The only way anyone in their home was able to get to their equity was by securing a loan on it. A loan is not wealth.


  • Options
    #5456
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    This seems so much like grasping at straws. It doesn't really make any difference what the numbers are at deadline - the govt have the will, the means, and the need to enforce the tax. If you don't like this particular tax policy, then you make your feelings known next election. The need for making up the shortfall in our revenues trumps the ill will that they know is generated by increased taxation.

    dv brought the numbers up, i only pointed out that goes both ways. are you saying he is grasping at straws?


  • Options
    #5457
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Look everyone, the elite in this country need their 6 figure retirment golden handshakes and 6 figure pensions to retain their usual standard of living.
    The country is broke , we don't have enough money to maintain them in the lifestyles they they have become dependant on/ used to . We must pay up, it's for the good of the country], the country's elite/ politicans/bankers , currency gamblers/


  • Options
    #5458
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    alastair wrote: »
    If you don't like this particular tax policy, then you make your feelings known next election.

    :pac::pac::pac::pac: Lmfao!

    Isn't that what we (collectively) did just a year ago and got the FF policies we voted against?

    And then some folk give out about the quality of Russian democracy - at least in Russia the winner clearly represents the wishes of the majority.

    The "ill-feeling" is generated as much by this destruction of democracy as by the €100. :mad:


  • Options
    #5459
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm not clear what part of wealth in property you're missing. If you can liquidate an asset, there's wealth in it.


    i think its been pointed out to you already that you would have to liquidate the asset, then pay the remainder of your mortgage, plus pay rent. (or perhaps go on a housing list costing the state more)
    that kind of shortsighted budgeting is what got us in this mess.........


  • Options
    #5460
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    :pac::pac::pac::pac: Lmfao!

    Isn't that what we (collectively) did just a year ago and got the FF policies we voted against?

    And then some folk give out about the quality of Russian democracy - at least in Russia the winner clearly represents the wishes of the majority.

    The "ill-feeling" is generated as much by this destruction of democracy as by the €100. :mad:

    Yes it was not really a vote for FG, it was an ABFF.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5461
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    No confusion on my part. It should be bleeding obvious that those who live in unfinished estates are in negative equity - maybe you disagree? So that particular grouping can be deducted from the minority of households that are in negative equity and liable for the tax. Likewise many of those in negative equity are only so on a moderate basis, and any sort of recovery will quickly pull them out of that situation. The tax is here for the long haul. Where does equity come into it? The vaste majority of homeowners have equity in their property - that equity is actual wealth - regardless of whether they intend to liquidate that wealth or not.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    The bit in bold, that has nothing to do with equity, thats estates that are unfinished. A house having negative equity is not exempt. More confusion on your part.



    So a person €1000 in negative equity, pays the property tax. A person €150,000 negative equity pays the property charge. A person €50,000 in equity pays the property charge.

    Unlike you, im not seeing where this equity comes into it. You see the equity as wealth, you said the other day that a house with negative equity only had the negative equity in the mortgage itself, and the house still had equity. A statement that shows you are clueless about equity. No doubt you have since looked up what equity means, and now say most with negative equity will be in positive equity soon. The basic principles for a property tax are compelling enough for everyone else - there's nothing unique about Ireland, and no mystery about the relationship between equity and wealth. As to accessing the wealth in a property? You can also sell or rent it out.


    And I have to repeat, as you have not explained how its a wealth tax.

    You directly claimed home owners are wealty.

    I asked you to explain. Im still waiting. Its an extremely simple question. How is a family in their home, on social welfare wealthy?

    You cant answer it. Its a property tax. Equity, for the 50th time, is absolutely nothing to do with this. Nothing.

    It will be based on market value. Market value has absolutely nothing to do with equity. And equity is not wealth.

    As you cant answer, i invite any of the other posters here, to show how this is a wealth tax?

    The only way anyone in their home was able to get to their equity was by securing a loan on it. A loan is not wealth.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement