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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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    #5462
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    i think its been pointed out to you already that you would have to liquidate the asset, then pay the remainder of your mortgage, plus pay rent. (or perhaps go on a housing list costing the state more)
    that kind of shortsighted budgeting is what got us in this mess.........

    Not forgetting the now non home owner will pay a chunk of tax out of anything left. So its not like they make tax free money.


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    #5463
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Look everyone, the elite in this country need their 6 figure retirment golden handshakes and 6 figure pensions to retain their usual standard of living.
    The country is broke , we don't have enough money to maintain them in the lifestyles they they have become dependant on/ used to . We must pay up, it's for the good of the country], the country's elite/ politicans/bankers , currency gamblers/

    Some millionaires wouldn't even pay for a dog licence unless they were brought to the steps of a courthouse. People with lots of money evade taxes and anyone evading this new tax may make the excuse that it is a principled stand against government policies with which they dont agree. But in reality it is just as likely that they are the sort of people who say it's my money and I won't give any of my money to any ****er.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0314/1224313270436.html

    All these criminal types can now say I am keeping my money because I don't want to see it paid over to bankers and bondholders.


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    #5464
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    The campaign have promised to pay for legal representation for anyone who is brought to court.
    They haven't said how many people have registered with them and paid the fiver so its not at all clear if they can fulfill this promise. Its all very well to be committed, but when the sh1t hits the fan, people are going to be left high and dry by the campaign.

    Jesus DV, are you getting paid for the hours you put in on this thread.
    Last post at 1.40 this morning and back on at 9.28. That's a bit weird don't you think?
    And it a bank holiday...
    You better watch out though, alastair is trying to muscle in on your position as the top cheerleader of this stupid tax!


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    #5465
    foozzybear61
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭foozzybear61


    dvpower wrote: »
    Have you paid your €5 to the campaign?

    Is there a central fund or is the fiver going to local commities..
    If its central can someone give me details..they have my support.


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    #5466
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    All these criminal types can now say I am keeping my money because I don't want to see it paid over to bankers and bondholders.

    I am keeping my money because I don't want to see it paid over to bankers and bondholders.

    This is exactly the correct approach; the criminals are the folk who sold out to the banks and the Euro-dictatorship, destroying Irish democracy in the process :mad:


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    #5467
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    This seems so much like grasping at straws. It doesn't really make any difference what the numbers are at deadline - the govt have the will, the means, and the need to enforce the tax. If you don't like this particular tax policy, then you make your feelings known next election. The need for making up the shortfall in our revenues trumps the ill will that they know is generated by increased taxation.

    If you and the government believe in democracy, why don't we have a referendum on this tax at the same time we're voting on the fiscal treaty?

    No? Didn't think so........


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    #5468
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    foozzybear61 wrote: »
    Is there a central fund or is the fiver going to local commities..
    If its central can someone give me details..they have my support.


    i'd like to know this also, dv has convinced me i'm remiss in not donating. :)


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    #5469
    apache6
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭apache6


    dvpower wrote: »
    The campaign have promised to pay for legal representation for anyone who is brought to court.
    They haven't said how many people have registered with them and paid the fiver so its not at all clear if they can fulfill this promise. Its all very well to be committed, but when the sh1t hits the fan, people are going to be left high and dry by the campaign.

    My wife works in retail and they were all told at work that their trade union would pay their costs if they were taken to court. I think the union is Mandate.


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    #5470
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    If you and the government believe in democracy, why don't we have a referendum on this tax at the same time we're voting on the fiscal treaty?

    No? Didn't think so........

    Because we have already mandated them to govern and taxation policy is part of that mandate. The fiscal treaty involves constitutional considerations, hence the referendum.


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    #5471
    geeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 93 ✭✭geeman


    so anyway..government will take the charge out of peoples pay packets or bank accounts if they refuse to pay.

    “We have new legislation that was brought in by the previous government in 2010, which allows a court to, in certain circumstances, allow the State to deduct from source,” said Mr Hogan.

    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/household-tax-may-be-cut-from-pay-hogan-544050.html#ixzz1pYfXxKbW


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    #5472
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    If people object to their money going to "bankers and bondholders", why do they continue to pay other taxes which are going to the same crowd?


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    #5473
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    Because we have already mandated them to govern and taxation policy is part of that mandate. The fiscal treaty involves constitutional considerations, hence the referendum.

    Property tax wasn't in either of their election manifesto's last time I looked.


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    #5474
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    geeman wrote: »
    so anyway..government will take the charge out of peoples pay packets or bank accounts if they refuse to pay.

    “We have new legislation that was brought in by the previous government in 2010, which allows a court to, in certain circumstances, allow the State to deduct from source,” said Mr Hogan.

    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/household-tax-may-be-cut-from-pay-hogan-544050.html#ixzz1pYfXxKbW

    They might be able to do that with the cosseted PS workers, it'll be a different story in the private sector.
    Big Phil's beginning to sound more and more like a dictator every day.


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    #5475
    apache6
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭apache6


    gurramok wrote: »
    If people object to their money going to "bankers and bondholders", why do they continue to pay other taxes which are going to the same crowd?

    I think you have nailed it there - the issue with this charge is not all about what it is for! Nor is it really about 100 euro. It is an oppertunity for people to show their disgust at a government that had lied to them most dreadfully with false promises - it could mark the death of Democracy in Ireland in that it is now clear that democracy is an illusion. The politicos promise certain things if you vote for them - you do - then they renege on the pact that has been made.
    Democratic ?


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    #5476
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    No confusion on my part. It should be bleeding obvious that those who live in unfinished estates are in negative equity - maybe you disagree?
    You are confused. It is not because they are in negative equity that they are exempt. The reason they are exempt is also causing negative equity. This is another area where your confused.

    Unvelievable this. They are not the only negative equity homes in ireland. Therefore, negative equity is not the factor. This is like something from a 10 year old.

    So that particular grouping can be deducted from the minority of households that are in negative equity and liable for the tax.
    Ok, so it is not their negative equity that is exempting them so, as other negative equity homes are still liable.
    Likewise many of those in negative equity are only so on a moderate basis, and any sort of recovery will quickly pull them out of that situation.
    The tax is here for the long haul. Where does equity come into it?

    Thats the point. You say its a tax based on wealth.

    At first you said even a home in negative equity has equity (farcical). Now you changed that to saying negative equity owners will soon have positive equity.

    Now your asking where does equity come into it.

    Thats what ive been saying, it has nothing to do with it. Now your saying equity has nothing to do with it. Has your account been hacked??


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    #5477
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Property tax wasn't in either of their election manifesto's last time I looked.

    So? Was any specific taxation increase? And yet we all know that our taxation levels have to rise. We live in a representational democracy - and most of us understand that we elect a government to make unpalatble decisions as well as nice cosy ones.


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    #5478
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Jesus DV, are you getting paid for the hours you put in on this thread.
    Last post at 1.40 this morning and back on at 9.28. That's a bit weird don't you think?
    And it a bank holiday...
    You better watch out though, alastair is trying to muscle in on your position as the top cheerleader of this stupid tax!

    A detailed study of what equity is will be required first. It has a different meaning each day.


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    #5479
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    You are confused. It is not because they are in negative equity that they are exempt. The reason they are exempt is also causing negative equity. This is another area where your confused.

    Did I say they were exempt because they were in negative equity? No I didn't. The only confusion at play here is your own - try ramping up your reading skills.


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    #5480
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    gurramok wrote: »
    If people object to their money going to "bankers and bondholders", why do they continue to pay other taxes which are going to the same crowd?

    Because PAYE payers have no choice maybe? Ditto with VAT and retail taxes :rolleyes:


    However the hopeful surge in the black economy, where there is wriggle room, is a heartening development.

    I even pay the dentist cash recently for a Saturday morning visit! The way of the future :)


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    #5481
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    We live in a representational democracy

    This government doesn't represent me, they represent the IMF, the ECB, the bankers, the bondholders and themselves.

    You'll be crying next year when this tax is set at €1,000 or so and then the water charges on top of that and if your in the so far cosseted PS you'll be crying when the pay cuts start coming your way.
    Then the PS will have a serious cut to their living standards.
    Bring it on.


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    #5482
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Now your asking where does equity come into it.

    Oh dear. No I'm not.
    It's a rhetorical question - the clue being that I've repeatedly made clear where equity comes into it. Property tax is a form of wealth tax - the wealth inherent in property obviously relates to its equity.


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    #5483
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Because PAYE payers have no choice maybe? Ditto with VAT and retail taxes :rolleyes:


    However the hopeful surge in the black economy, where there is wriggle room, is a heartening development.

    I even pay the dentist cash recently for a Saturday morning visit! The way of the future :)

    Nice. The black economy thing has worked out well for the Greeks.


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    #5484
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Because it's a tax on a specified equity. If you don't hold that equity, it's not applicable.
    alastair wrote: »
    Oh dear. No I'm not.
    It's a rhetorical question - the clue being that I've repeatedly made clear where equity comes into it. Property tax is a form of wealth tax - the wealth inherent in property obviously relates to its equity.

    Well then, if it is to do with equity, why are negative equity homes not exempt? Any chance of a posters answer rather than a party political one?


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    #5485
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    This government doesn't represent me, they represent the IMF, the ECB, the bankers, the bondholders and themselves.

    You'll be crying next year when this tax is set at €1,000 or so and then the water charges on top of that and if your in the so far cosseted PS you'll be crying when the pay cuts start coming your way.
    Then the PS will have a serious cut to their living standards.
    Bring it on.

    I've no illusions as to what the tax will likely rise to. No real way we can avoid this tbh.


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    #5486
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Because PAYE payers have no choice maybe? Ditto with VAT and retail taxes :rolleyes:


    However the hopeful surge in the black economy, where there is wriggle room, is a heartening development.

    I even pay the dentist cash recently for a Saturday morning visit! The way of the future :)

    And this is what happens when a government tries to tax everything they can.
    People have to do what they can to make ends meet.

    Like the VAT increase, when FF raised the VAT rate FG were up in arms, then, not 9 months after being elected they raise it by 2%.

    Drive more people to the black market Enda & co.

    Really clever.


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    #5487
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    i'd like to know this also, dv has convinced me i'm remiss in not donating. :)
    I think it's a central fund. Details are on the campaign website.

    Anyone know how much they have in the battle fund? Enough to lose one or two court cases maybe?
    They're going to need all the fivers they can get.


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    #5488
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Promoting the black economy is an own goal. The loss of tax revenue will have to be made up from somewhere and usually affects those who have to run a business creating employment.


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    #5489
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    I've no illusions as to what the tax will likely rise to. No real way we can avoid this tbh.

    We could just not pay the €3.1 billion next week, but hey, we don't want to upset our german and french 'partners' in europe.

    Cue the "this has nothing to do with our €15 billion deficit though" bull****e comments.


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    #5490
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    alastair wrote: »
    Nice. The black economy thing has worked out well for the Greeks.

    It was spending on a vast public service and welfare system that has done in the Greeks; the black economy is a reaction to the cynicism that bred - not a cause of anything.

    Same thing is happening here.

    Greece defaulted and had €140bn written off - with more to come.

    Same will happen here, the sooner the better. If the exploding black economy hastens that necessary per-condition for recovery - great :D


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    #5491
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gurramok wrote: »
    Promoting the black economy is an own goal. The loss of tax revenue will have to be made up from somewhere and usually affects those who have to run a business creating employment.

    Well when the full property tax levels are reached, people will have less to spend. less spending = jobs lost.

    Perhaps they can use the wealth in their home equity to save the day though:pac:


This discussion has been closed.
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