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England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

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    #1232
    gally74
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭gally74


    Watchin the game yesterday I reapply felt its the end of the good days for a while as an Irish supporter.

    The reality is England had 10-15 quality players ready to come into the setup we didn't

    Post work cup Wales and England have fresh new teams, we don't


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    #1233
    doomed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭doomed


    Its very sad to see us going back to the days of our pack being beaten up by England and having our noses (literally in the case of the front row) rubbed in it. Apparently nobody had told the England pack about all our HC wins.

    So - Wales have another Grand slam for the coach our blazers didn't want, won with a young team with a great future ahead of it and better players than us in nearly every position. England in a good place by doing what we failed to consider which is to make wholescale changes in personnel and go with form instead of reputation.

    Hindsight is great of course but after losing to wales in the first game the triple crown and grand slam (it sounds funny even saying it) were gone. There was a great opportunity to blood new players while there are still a few good senior guys to take them under their wing. We didn't take it, with the result that we are far worse off now than we were in January. So what if the young players turned out not to be any good at this level. At least lets find out and its not like we could have been all that much worse.

    Loyalty is all very well but does anyone think Darcy or TOL feels really good about getting another cap yesterday. In TOL's case it was actually unfair on him to select him.


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    #1234
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Heaslip was very poor yesterday IMO

    He's taken to doing this half step before taking the ball into contact, kills all his momentum


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    #1235
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    tolosenc wrote: »
    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    If you want big, look no further than Chris Farrell. U20s centre. 6'5 atm. I dont agree with the theory that big centres are better. I'd take skillful centres behind a strong pack any day.
    Nevin Spence is a sturdy lad aswell. Ulster are producing some great centre prospects atm with Spence, Cave, L. Marshall, Farrell

    Sheridan at Leinster is a huge lad. Haven't heard much about him for a while though.
    Always injured. Can't see him making it now unfortunately, I reckon he'll go abroad or to Connacht.

    Farrell is a long way away from playing for Ulsters first team. Hanrahan is about a year from getting decent game time with Munster. Macken is a 13 as is O'Malley (Macken more likely to make it as an international though I'd say).

    We have a very good international 12 who is in great form up North. He was overlooked. We also have Nevin Spence who should have been involved. Even if only to create competition and inspire D'Arcy back to his best.


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    #1236
    Bearcat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Bearcat


    So what's going to happen? Well from all the posts it appears sfa. Kidney stays, the golden oldies will all be sent to a health spa, Molly coddled and told yesterday was a one off and the merry go round of no change continues. I find it utterly disheartening if there are no RADICAL changes on hand. We are in serious trouble period and it gives me no pleasure in saying this...heaslip, Darcy, Trimble, Rog, tol, court etc......bye........that bloody draw in Paris against a dire French team was the worst thing that ever happened and hence we went cockahoop to twicks to show the auld enemy how it's done......we were bludgeoned and will continue to do so until this mess is sorted.

    We need to start with a clean slate, front up otherwise we'll be battling with Scotland and Italy for air.


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    #1237
    Dave6858
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Dave6858


    Horrible to watch but at least now there is no hiding place.The WC should have been a watershed for the irish team.This was the 6N to make the changes and bring new players through based on form...Kidney (unlike Wales and England) failed to do this!
    To only rely on Ross is criminal but cant completely blame Kidney on that.


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    #1238
    DDC1990
    Registered Users Posts: 10,363 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    Ok, we were battered yesterday.

    Huge Margin of defeat. Was embarrassing to watch.

    But as the lads on RTE were saying to blame defeat on numbers 1-15 would be rediculous.

    People were blaming TOL, and Heaslip, and D'Arcy and DOC.

    Healy has been brilliant all year, but yesterday, he was absolutly manhandled in the scrum. Best likewise has been brilliant all around the park. Yesterday he was annihelated. Heartley even hooked a number of Irish balls back on the English side before Best.

    There was obviously something wrong with Ross, from the begining, and he was destroyed.

    I had a little chuckle, when the RTE commentators after Irelands first scrum with Court on stated that "Tom Court has really solidified the Scrum for Ireland", after Court fell to his knees on impact, and only for SOB getting his hand onto the ball illegaly, the ball would have gone straight back to England.

    Now blame Kidney or the Forwards coach or whoever you like, but the long and the short of it is, Ireland do not have International Level props sitting around Idlely in the provinces.

    Kidney can't Magic 2 or 3 extra props out of thin air. If the Props in Ireland were good enough, then Du Preez, Van der Merwe, Boatha, Ah You, would not have been brought in for the provinces.

    I had great hopes for Jamie Hagan, but seeing him sitting on the bench for Leinster all year, has stopped him playing against Top Sides with Connacht.

    The conditions in Twickenham just didn't suit Ireland. Any moves our backline put together throughout the 6N involved quick switches at pace, and running a good line. These switches ended up in knock on's yesterday, which lead to penalties.

    If NZ, AUS or SA were in our situation, they would have been cleverer I feel. After about 7 or 8 minutes of Court being minced, Court would have gone down with a "neck injury", and would have come off. The rest of the game would be played with uncontested scrums, and Ireland would have a platform to build off.
    If we want to win games like this we need to be ruthless and play over the legal bounds.
    Its clear to see that in Rugby "Cheating" can often win games. Whether its illegal scrummaging, or getting on the wrong side of a ruck every time to slow it down, or getting hands in the ruck.

    As a Munster fan, I remember clearly Neil Back, flicking the ball out of Stringer's hands for that scrum in the HCup Final. He was hero for doing it. For saving the day. If we find ourselves in a similer situation in the future, then i'd hope we would stoop to that level.

    Grrr, anyway Rant over. Its very hard to write a positive piece after a crushing like that.


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    #1239
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Neil Francis: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/neil-francis-back-to-the-drawing-board-for-sloppy-irish-3053922.html

    Brendan Fanning: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/brendan-fanning-flawless-farrell-kicks-life-out-of-kidneys-men-3053914.html


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    #1240
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    in the cold light of day lets look at this logically

    * The rain dictated the game big time
    * O'Connell was a big loss
    * Ross went off injured which weaken the scrummage hugely
    * Best was carrying an injury lets not forget
    * The first try england got should never have been allowed
    * As for the second try, well the game was more or less over at that stage

    The scoreline flattered england, any other day it would have been alot closer and bear in mind this is only the second time since 03 that England have beaten ireland in the 6 nations..so i wouldn't be too down hearted.


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    #1241
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    fryup wrote: »
    in the cold light of day lets look at this logically

    * The rain dictated the game big time - for both teams
    * O'Connell was a big loss - but Ryan filled 90% of that loss
    * Ross went off injured which weaken the scrummage hugely - yes
    * Best was carrying an injury lets not forget - if it was bad enough to effect him, he should not have started
    * The first try england got should never have been allowed - they would have scored a P Try in the next scrum, or the next
    * As for the second try, well the game was more or less over at that stage - Let's not count that one so :p
    :(


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    #1242
    ironingbored
    Registered Users Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭ironingbored


    Just listening back to the post-match comments on the RTEplayer.

    These are the things sticking out.

    1) Hook said he wanted Sexton to dominate but one OH did and that was Farrell. Why when our scrum is the issue does Hook begin his critique with Sexton. His antipathy to certain Leinster players (a la BOD once upon a time) is tedious.

    2) Hook: "Kidney is not to blame for this defeat." Although Kidney cannot be blamed for our paucity at TH, we can blame him for DOC and Darcy starting, for the crazy decision for TOL and ROG coming on at 43mins (yes, 43 mins and score at 9-6) and McFAdden sitting on the bench until 75mins.

    3) "The new NIQ rules mean that we won't win HC's anymore." Someone should remind them who were the props in 2011 and Munsters props in 2006/2008.

    Worst 6 nations in 10 years says it all. Kidney must be replaced with (IMHO) a non-Irish coach preferably NZ/AUS.


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    #1243
    Benny Cake
    Registered Users Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Neil Francis: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/neil-francis-back-to-the-drawing-board-for-sloppy-irish-3053922.html

    Brendan Fanning: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/brendan-fanning-flawless-farrell-kicks-life-out-of-kidneys-men-3053914.html

    Good analysis of the scrum by Francis...


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    #1244
    sting60
    Registered Users Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭sting60


    Clegg wrote: »
    Kidney will still be here for the New Zealand internationals.

    I think the IRFU will let him see out his contract even though he's proven he's not the man for the job anymore.
    Sorry but he was never good enough.I got two red cards on this site for pointing out how Kidney would perform when he was appointed.Boy have I been proved right.


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    #1245
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    ironingbored wrote: »
    3) "The new NIQ rules mean that we won't win HC's anymore." Someone should remind them who were the props in 2011 and Munsters props in 2006/2008.
    In faireness 2 high quality props is not enough in the HEC these days. While Healy started most games for Leisnter VDM made a massive difference when he came on.

    Stan Wright was injured for the year, if he wasn't there and someone else went down injured instead Leinster would have been in major trouble last season.


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    #1246
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    Monty Burnz wrote: »

    Originally Posted by fryup viewpost.gif
    in the cold light of day lets look at this logically

    * The rain dictated the game big time - for both teams -well if it was dry ireland would have been favourites
    * O'Connell was a big loss - but Ryan filled 90% of that loss - and the missing 10% was the difference
    * Ross went off injured which weaken the scrummage hugely - yes
    * Best was carrying an injury lets not forget - if it was bad enough to effect him, he should not have started - agreed
    * The first try england got should never have been allowed - they would have scored a P Try in the next scrum, or the next - but the ref should have let play continue instead of awarding a penalty try, England made the move from the srum
    * As for the second try, well the game was more or less over at that stage - Let's not count that one so tongue.gifwell it was over by then



    :(

    still think any other day, it would have been ireland


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    #1247
    ironingbored
    Registered Users Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭ironingbored


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    In faireness 2 high quality props is not enough in the HEC these days. While Healy started most games for Leisnter VDM made a massive difference when he came on.

    Stan Wright was injured for the year, if he wasn't there and someone else went down injured instead Leinster would have been in major trouble last season.

    I take your point.

    But it was Healy and Ross playing when the scrum was turned around against Saints.

    I agree with you that VDM, Stan and Ollie add/ed hugely to the squad.


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    #1248
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    ironingbored wrote: »
    I take your point.

    But it was Healy and Ross playing when the scrum was turned around against Saints.

    I agree with you that VDM, Stan and Ollie add/ed hugely to the squad.
    It was also canny coaching that identified the strength of the Saints scrum and nullified it at half time.

    This is what the Ireland squad needed more than anything and it just wasn't there for them.


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    #1249
    harvester of sorrow
    Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭harvester of sorrow


    Im no expert on scrummaging but it looked like the english loose head was "boring" in against Ross/Court causing them to "pop" up?Did any one else see this?Or is it acceptable?
    Dissapointed for the loss, just seems to be more of the same:mad:


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    #1250
    leftism
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭leftism


    DDC1990 wrote: »

    If NZ, AUS or SA were in our situation, they would have been cleverer I feel. After about 7 or 8 minutes of Court being minced, Court would have gone down with a "neck injury", and would have come off. The rest of the game would be played with uncontested scrums, and Ireland would have a platform to build off.
    If we want to win games like this we need to be ruthless and play over the legal bounds.
    Its clear to see that in Rugby "Cheating" can often win games. Whether its illegal scrummaging, or getting on the wrong side of a ruck every time to slow it down, or getting hands in the ruck.

    As a Munster fan, I remember clearly Neil Back, flicking the ball out of Stringer's hands for that scrum in the HCup Final. He was hero for doing it. For saving the day. If we find ourselves in a similer situation in the future, then i'd hope we would stoop to that level.

    I'll probably get flack for saying this, but the only positive i'll take from yesterday is the honesty that the guys showed. Our front 3 were completely humiliated by the English pack, in a rainy Twickenham, on Paddy's day. But they never stopped trying!

    At one stage, when Court was being treated, Ryle Nugent was hinting at a "front row injury" that might end the humiliation. That would definitely have been the best thing for the team in that situation. It probably would have been the best thing for Court! And it would have been the easiest thing in the world to do. "Just lie down there Tom and take it easy. You've done your best and now your neck is sore". Instead he did the right thing. He got up and kept fighting! Its probably not what the clever NZ or SA boys might have done, but i'm glad its still what the Irish do...

    The thing i love most about rugby is that honour still counts for a lot! You can lose a game but still hold your head high and be proud that you fought the good fight.

    If Irish rugby is heading into another period of decline, then i hope to God we can meet it with the same honesty we showed in the good times. I hope we NEVER stoop to that level!


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    #1251
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    harvester of sorrow wrote: »
    Im no expert on scrummaging but it looked like the english loose head was "boring" in against Ross/Court causing them to "pop" up?Did any one else see this?Or is it acceptable?
    Dissapointed for the loss, just seems to be more of the same:mad:
    It's illegal and should be penalised but seldom is.

    A bit like crooked put ins, hit and miss as to whether they're picked up or not.

    George Hook made one very good point and that's that we're not developing our props early enough. In schools rugby, props are often only picked for that position at a very late stage and can sometimes be converted locks or back rows. These guys should be identified and developed from the age of 16 and specialised the same way that other positions are.


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    #1252
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    leftism wrote: »
    I'll probably get flack for saying this, but the only positive i'll take from yesterday is the honesty that the guys showed. Our front 3 were completely humiliated by the English pack, in a rainy Twickenham, on Paddy's day. But they never stopped trying!

    At one stage, when Court was being treated, Ryle Nugent was hinting at a "front row injury" that might end the humiliation. That would definitely have been the best thing for the team in that situation. It probably would have been the best thing for Court! And it would have been the easiest thing in the world to do. "Just lie down there Tom and take it easy. You've done your best and now your neck is sore". Instead he did the right thing. He got up and kept fighting! Its probably not what the clever NZ or SA boys might have done, but i'm glad its still what the Irish do...

    The thing i love most about rugby is that honour still counts for a lot! You can lose a game but still hold your head high and be proud that you fought the good fight.

    If Irish rugby is heading into another period of decline, then i hope to God we can meet it with the same honesty we showed in the good times. I hope we NEVER stoop to that level!
    +1

    Rory Best wass holding back the tears when interviewed and struggling for composure the whole time. You just can't fault that level of commitment.


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    #1253
    ironingbored
    Registered Users Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭ironingbored


    @RonanOGara10

    Yesterday was embarrassing and I will always be a 1 club man. A proud munsterman.

    Wow! Don't know what to make of this.

    He "clarified" with this follow up:
    Ronan O Gara ‏ @RonanOGara10

    Earlier tweet was in relation to inaccurate reports... Love playing for Ireland and munster.. Nothing has changed..


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    #1254
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    ironingbored wrote: »
    Wow! Don't know what to make of this.

    He "clarified" with this follow up:

    Daily Wail reported (based on a fake Twitter Account) a tweet that he was off to Toulon. That's the reason for 'Munster man' comment.


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    #1255
    ebbsy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Heads appeared to drop, have not seen that for a while.......


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    #1256
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    That was a hell of a wake up call yesterday.

    I believe that the comprehensive defeat(even with O' Driscoll) by Wales at the world cup should have been an earlier wake up call.

    KIdney if he stays(probably will) wiil have to build a new team.

    Darcy, Donnacha O Callaghan definitely have had their day.

    Even if O 'Driscoll and O 'Connell make it back from injury how long have they got left. It would be long odds on both of these playing many more games for Ireland.

    Jamie Heaslip has really gone off the boil and opposition teams have learnt how to nullify Sean O'Brien.

    Its a big challenge for any coach but if Kidney is going to continue he will have to show an ability to give younger players their chance and instill a belief in these new players that he has a confidence and belief in them.

    It will be the biggest coaching challenge of his career and I would suggest that he should freshen up his backroom team to reflect the new challenges that face the Irish team.


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    #1257
    Bearcat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Bearcat


    Heads will continue to drop and not roll until radical surgery is implemented. Yesterday's defeat was a national embarrassment but until the "a sure it'll be all right" deccie mentality merchants (the majority it appears) see the cold light of day that we were humiliated and manhandled off the park yesterday.......nothing will change.

    We need utter change, we need new blood, thanks deccie but do the honourable thing. That man running Leinster, hmmmmm".........


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    #1258
    CptMackey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭CptMackey


    harvester of sorrow wrote: »
    Im no expert on scrummaging but it looked like the english loose head was "boring" in against Ross/Court causing them to "pop" up?Did any one else see this?Or is it acceptable?
    Dissapointed for the loss, just seems to be more of the same:mad:

    That's what I was looking at. It was happening the whole time. Thought I was the only one to see it. Never picked up tho


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    #1259
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    blinding wrote: »
    That was a hell of a wake up call yesterday.

    I believe that the comprehensive defeat(even with O' Driscoll) by Wales at the world cup should have been an earlier wake up call.

    KIdney if he stays(probably will) wiil have to build a new team.

    Darcy, Donnacha O Callaghan definitely have had their day.

    Even if O 'Driscoll and O 'Connell make it back from injury how long have they got left. It would be long odds on both of these playing many more games for Ireland.

    Jamie Heaslip has really gone off the boil and opposition teams have learnt how to nullify Sean O'Brien.

    Its a big challenge for any coach but if Kidney is going to continue he will have to show an ability to give younger players their chance and instill a belief in these new players that he has a confidence and belief in them.

    It will be the biggest coaching challenge of his career and I would suggest that he should freshen up his backroom team to reflect the new challenges that face the Irish team.
    I thought Sean O'Brien had a pretty good game and made some yards in tight areas. Was in a very good position to make good yards were it not for an absolutely atrocious pass from TOL to above his head.

    Selections and substitutions continue to flabber my gast. Regardless of the RTE muppets calling for it, I see no point in having O'Gara and Sexton on the park at the same time. O'Gara just gave up at the end, kicking the ball into touch. There's a strong stench of disillusionment from the team and really that can only stem from one place.


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    #1260
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,670 ✭✭✭nerd69


    changes are needed thats for sure but theres no point in a knee jerk drop everyone reaction.
    that match yesterday was won by the england scrum iv never seen a scrum that dominant if there was boring it should have been brought up to the ref. i don't think we can take anything else out of that game because we just couldn't do anything else with a scrum that bad.handeling errors seemed to be an issue on both sides so that was probably the weather.

    we do need changes previous matches have shown the likes of doc and darcy should probably drop out but nothing can be taken from the england game except the scrum still need a lot of work


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    #1261
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    To highlight the reluctance of our coaches to look at new props, Australia currently have 11 capped props playing Super Rugby in their country, all of whom are 30 or younger. Ireland have 4: Ross, Healy, Court and Horan. Three of them are the wrong side of 30 and will be gone in the next 3 or so years. Of the likely men to come into the set up, Jamie Hagan has never even started a Wolfhounds game as the coaches preferred to use them to give run outs to returning old players. Ronan Loughney is a bloke who is moving into his late twenties, covers both sides of the scrum and has a single bench appearance to his name for the Wolfhounds. Someone like him should have been identified and worked on several years ago. Ridiculously short term approach.


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