England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

Tox56

BBC were talking about some gouging or something near the start of the match, was there any follow up on that?

puntosporting

twinytwo wrote: »

May i suggest that you watch more rugby... we are good enough and yes we are better than wales.

Back up you statement !

Clegg

Farrell isn't that great tbh. He's a good place kicker and he's a decent tackler and thats about it. He can't manage his backline too well. His only attacking move seems to be the pass back inside.

He's decent and has the potential to get better but right now he's nothing more than solid.

its_phil

Still find the most amazing thing about Owen Farell to be, that a year ago tomorrow he was in Dubary Park playing back up outhalf to George Ford (an exceptional talent too) in the U20 Six Nations.

364 days later people are nominating him as 10 and one of the players of the tournament. Amzing stuff.

If people think we saw a debating, bickering and civil war in Ireland over ROG vs Sexton/D Humphreys, I can't imagines what it's going to be like in England when George Ford steps up and it's not far away either!

Benny Cake

puntosporting wrote: »

Back up you statement !

Have you been watching the Heineken Cup for the past 8 years?

Reloc8

Benny Cake wrote: »

Have you been watching the Heineken Cup for the past 8 years?

Have you been watching Ireland play in the Heineken cup for the past 8 years ?

He's a good player that Nacewa lad. As was Trevor Halstead. Shame they never really produced any of that form when they played for Ireland.

uriah

Ireland has lodged an official complaint that Stephen Ferris was bitten???

irishbucsfan

Jaysus Ferris always ends up on the wrong end of these things

cgpg5

its_phil wrote: »

Still find the most amazing thing about Owen Farell to be, that a year ago tomorrow he was in Dubary Park playing back up outhalf to George Ford (an exceptional talent too) in the U20 Six Nations.

364 days later people are nominating him as 10 and one of the players of the tournament. Amzing stuff.

If people think we saw a debating, bickering and civil war in Ireland over ROG vs Sexton/D Humphreys, I can't imagines what it's going to be like in England when George Ford steps up and it's not far away either!

Ford needs to get in the Leinster team first, tbh don't think Farrell was behind Ford in the pecking order as such probably felt he'd give more at 12. Farrell was outstanding in Sarries prem win and should've been in the RWC squad. I wonder will Cipriani ever challenge for o/h again? Incredible talent on his day

Edit- didn't realise Ford was so young, thought he would've been 21, great future talent it seems

irishbucsfan

Ford was 17 at the time... Probably more impressive that he was ahead of Farrell. Although if Farrell wasn't playing for Sarries he may well have been starting.

I think Ford is a better player though.... Which is particularly scary.

washman3

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jaysus Ferris always ends up on the wrong end of these things

Maybe he's just a "bad loser"

The_Kew_Tour

Ferris should have kept his own mouth shut during the week!!!

teednab-el

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Ferris should have kept his own mouth shut during the week!!!

Fully agree, all he was doing was adding more fuel to the English cause and by god did they burn us up in style.

moycullen14

am i right in saying that all of englands 30 points came from penalties in scrums?

Fireball07

moycullen14 wrote: »

am i right in saying that all of englands 30 points came from penalties in scrums?

I was wondering that.... I have a feeling it's true. Or maybe 1 penalty didn't.


I don't think we can really judge too this game too much. None of our players really got to play because the scrum was such a disaster.

Howjoe1

dougieruggie wrote: »

Here is my analyis. Brutally honest and free from bias.

Front Row

Cian Healy - You can't really fault Healy at all this tournament. Hes been excellent and one of our stand out performers in most of the games. At 23 he genuinely has a chance of being world class at loosehead.

Rory Best - He has also had an excellent tournament. He has been excellent around the park but he does need to work on his throws. Great leadership, lots of aggression and excellent in defence. He will never be world class but he can certainly become a Lions tourist.

Mike Ross - Solid and unspectacular. He has done well in the scrums until today. While he is normally solid he was awful today. Perhaps he was injured for most of the time he was on but either way, we need to be developing a back up. Hes never going to be world class, hes average by international standards but he does a job.

Obviously theres Jamie Hagan, who we could develop but he seems to have his own issues at scrum time. I am just wondering if it would be a good idea to revert McGrath back to tighthead. McGrath seems to relish scrummaging and also gets around the park. Perhaps he should move to Munster where he might get more opportunities.

Second Row

O'Callaghan - He should never have been there in the first place. On his way out and completely ineffective. Offers no carrying threat and doesn't seem to do anything. The 'unseen' work justification is as ridiculous as the 'lifting' justifcation for Hayes. He simply has to go.

Dan Touhy is the obvious replacement. Behind Touhy you'd have to look at Toner who is massive at the lineout and has begun to carry with much more threat. Both are streets ahead of O'Callaghan in my opinion. In the background you have Copeland recently signing for Cardiff Blues who oozes class. I've seen this guy play and hes incredible.

Touhy is definitely international class already, Toner is young but he was excellent against NZ and already has a MOTM to his name for Ireland - lots of potential but it remains to be seen whether he'll be international class. Copeland looks amazing at AIL but we'll have to see if he can make the jump up (though to be top try scorer in the AIL as a second row is insanely impressive).

Ryan - Ryan has really come into his own and taken his chances. Hes aggressive, hes a work horse and hes proficient in the lineout without being exceptional. Hes never going to be world class but hes definitely international class.

At 27 hes young, himself and Touhy should be the future. Right now however I'd have him behind POC for the sole reason that we need more ball carriers in the pack and Ryan isn't as good a ball carrier as Touhy.

Backrow

Ferris - One of our best players all tournament. Hes world class and can't get enough praise. But on a day when Heaslip was criticized for being anonymous and outplayed by his opposite number, I havent seen anyone mention Ferris who was more anonymous and more outplayed by his opposite number, Croft. Anyway, no issue there as hes not superman and one average game doesn't change that.

Sean O'Brien - Brilliant today and really played the role of 7 well. However this season while hes been very good he hasn't been world class like he was last season. Hes still the best 7 by a long shot, but hes definitely regressed a little. The fact is, Ireland were much more effective when he was breaking tackles for fun. He can still do that at 7, he did it all world cup.

Heaslip - Very quiet these days. Not poor by any stretch of the imagination despite what many will say here but hes just been solid. Not spectacular. Once again Heaslip is world class but hes been playing like someone at international level. Hes still excellent for Leinster and my personal feelings are he is not happy with the Irish set up (though that is just a hinch)

Scrumhalf

Reddan - The best scrum half of the lot and the right choice but still nowhere near world class and very average by international standards. Did well today and it was a disgrace he was taken off but hes nowhere near the standard of most of the top scrumhalfs. International class, just about.

Murray - Too raw. Poor decision making, slow passing and just doesn't seem to justify the hype. Could become brilliant but more than likely another TOL in my opinion. Not international class, yet.

TOL - Wouldn't even start him for a top AIL team.

Outhalf

Sexton - Did everything right today. His garryowens were perfect, he had flawless passing depsite the conditions, 90% success rate for entire 6N in kicking and was excellent in defence. He is world class but not consistently for Ireland. The best OH in the 6N but that isn't saying too much.

O'Gara - Useless when he came on today. Offers nothing to the Irish team and unfortunately the game has long since moved on. Its time for him to move aside and let players like Madigan get their chance. Was once international class, now its debateable to be honest.

Centres

D'arcy - Finished. Not even international class anymore. His tackling and ability to make yards is gone something which he used to excell at. Its an utter disgrace that McFadden wasn't given a shot at 12. However McFadden will never be more than solid at international level.

I don't think JJ or Macken are our answer either unfortunately. There seems to be a lack of 12s and I'm wondering what ever happened to that big Ulster centre Marshall? To be honest I really don't think Spence is all that good either. McSherry looks like he could be ok but none of the young lads really fill you with confience.

I would genuinely love to see Madigan at 12. I think he has all the attributes but unfortunately the game seems to have moved on to big 12s and he certainly isn't big.

12 will be a big problem for Ireland it seems. Luke Fitzgerald possibly though once again he doesn't have the bulk (although hes a ferocious tackler)

Earls - Did well all tournament but like McFadden will only ever be solid at international level. Hes never going to be world class and to be honest I dont think we have any 13s coming through who could be world class. Cave, Griffin, O'Malley, none seem to fit that bill. One option is to try D.Kearney at 13 (hes played a lot there)

Wings
Bowe - Excellent wing, just short of world class. Quiet today but good overall tournament.

Trimble - Poor tournament overall for him. Really offered nothing all tournament. Fitzgerald deserved to be in the squad at least. Fitzgerald on form is world class but how long ago was that?

Full Back
Kearney - World class. Our best performer all tournament. Hes young, hes a leader and hes excellent.

Behind Kearney we have Jones who wont be world class but looks like he could be international class and Layden coming up looks good. D.Kearney is another option at full back.


World Class Players
Rob Kearney
Stephen Ferris
Paul O'Connell (though injured at the moment)

World Class but not playing World Class
Jamie Heaslip
Sean O'Brien
Jonathan Sexton (not consistently)
Luke Fitzgerald
Brian O'Driscoll (dont think he's getting back to that standard to be honest)

Potential to be World Class
Cian Healy
Dan Touhy
Donnacha Ryan
(I'm being a bit generous to Touhy and Ryan here)

Players who must be Abandoned:
ROG
TOL
Court
DOC
D'arcy

Players who must be Given a Chance
Dan Touhy
Ian Madigan
Marhsall
McFadden
D.Kearney
J.McGrath/Hagan (more chances with Leinster first though)


Kidney must go
I can't stress that enough.

excellent analysis ...can't argue with any of that.

Re coach, how come Gatland who has won two grand slams with Wales was considered not good enough for us?

leftism

Those that are constantly comparing provincial and national team success are in danger of ending up with the English football fan's delusional mentality...

We've all heard the old chestnut, "the Premiership is the greatest league in the world, so England should win the World Cup!". Its easy to ignore the impact that 1 or 2 (or 9 in the case of Chelsea) foreign players can have on a team. That impact is amplified x10 in a sport like rugby!

Don't get me wrong, i'm as gutted as anyone else with the game today. But we've been blessed over the last decade with a phenomenal team success. Ireland are a great team but lets not lose the run of ourselves.

-The team was missing two of its most influential players plus their (not my) 1st choice SH.
-Going into their 4th game on the trot, fatigue and injuries were innevitable.
-Playing in Twickenham against a bouyant England, just off the back of a memorable win in Paris.
-Lose their ONLY tighthead after 20 minutes, in a game where conditions were forcing a scrumfest.

Should we really be slating our players???

I'm hugely proud of what this team has achieved over the last decade. But pride should never descend to arrogance or hubris!

Monty Burnz

leftism wrote: »

Those that are constantly comparing provincial and national team success are in danger of ending up with the English football fan's delusional mentality...

We've all heard the old chestnut, "the Premiership is the greatest league in the world, so England should win the World Cup!". Its easy to ignore the impact that 1 or 2 (or 9 in the case of Chelsea) foreign players can have on a team. That impact is amplified x10 in a sport like rugby!

The effect isn't amplified at all in rugby. And with the fact that at least 75% of each provincial team is IQ, your point fails completely. Most top teams in England only have a couple of English qualified players in their strongest team. Look at Man City, Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea - average number of English first teamers? 3 maybe?

durkadurka

Plus the Irish provinces are doing really well against teams in Europe - its not just our own country.

its_phil

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The effect isn't amplified at all in rugby. And with the fact that at least 75% of each provincial team is IQ, your point fails completely. Most top teams in England only have a couple of English qualified players in their strongest team. Look at Man City, Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea - average number of English first teamers? 3 maybe?

I know I shouldn't but 6/7 at United

Tox56

leftism wrote: »

Those that are constantly comparing provincial and national team success are in danger of ending up with the English football fan's delusional mentality...

We've all heard the old chestnut, "the Premiership is the greatest league in the world, so England should win the World Cup!". Its easy to ignore the impact that 1 or 2 (or 9 in the case of Chelsea) foreign players can have on a team. That impact is amplified x10 in a sport like rugby!

Don't get me wrong, i'm as gutted as anyone else with the game today. But we've been blessed over the last decade with a phenomenal team success. Ireland are a great team but lets not lose the run of ourselves.

-The team was missing two of its most influential players plus their (not my) 1st choice SH.
-Going into their 4th game on the trot, fatigue and injuries were innevitable.
-Playing in Twickenham against a bouyant England, just off the back of a memorable win in Paris.
-Lose their ONLY tighthead after 20 minutes, in a game where conditions were forcing a scrumfest.

Should we really be slating our players???

I'm hugely proud of what this team has achieved over the last decade. But pride should never descend to arrogance or hubris!

The top English teams are loaded with foreign players.

Leinster for example are currently the best team in Europe, and have 2 NIQ starters. One of whom will become IQ, and their direct replacements in the Irish team are Bowe and Best, arguably better. I have said it numerous times, but it cannot be reiterated enough.

The English League comparison is lazy and completely different. If Man Utd won the Champions League with 9/10 of their starting team English playing excellent flowing football, England would be expected to perform.

Tox56

I see the point was already made above, but still, it's true!

its_phil

Howjoe1 wrote: »

Re coach, how come Gatland who has won two grand slams with Wales was considered not good enough for us?

Probably because he didn't have two grand slams 11 years ago. :pac:

I'd say if you ask Gatland getting the Ireland sack was probably the making of him as a coach. Won everything in front of him (bar a world cup) since with Wasps, Wales and Waikato.

Monty Burnz

its_phil wrote: »

I know I shouldn't but 6/7 at United

:pac:

Here are the team sheets from the Man U/Man City FA Cup game:

Man City: Pantilimon, Richards, Kompany, Lescott, Kolarov, Milner, De Jong, Johnson, Silva, Nasri, Aguero.

Man Utd: Lindegaard, Smalling, Jones, Ferdinand, Evra, Valencia, Carrick, Giggs, Nani, Rooney, Welbeck.

Surprised to see so many English guys starting for Man U, but I reckon Smalling and Welbeck wouldn't usually be there, and Carrick is only a squad player too. But yeah, 6.

Arsenal and Chelsea? Sometimes none at all!

Tox56

Monty Burnz wrote: »

:pac:

Here are the team sheets from the Man U/Man City FA Cup game:

Man City: Pantilimon, Richards, Kompany, Lescott, Kolarov, Milner, De Jong, Johnson, Silva, Nasri, Aguero.

Man Utd: Lindegaard, Smalling, Jones, Ferdinand, Evra, Valencia, Carrick, Giggs, Nani, Rooney, Welbeck.

Surprised to see so many English guys starting for Man U, but I reckon Smalling and Welbeck wouldn't usually be there, and Carrick is only a squad player too. But yeah, 6.

And both of those teams were knocked out in the Group Stage of the Champions League, whereas Leinster won the rugby equivalent.

its_phil

Monty Burnz wrote: »

:pac:

Here are the team sheets from the Man U/Man City FA Cup game:

Man City: Pantilimon, Richards, Kompany, Lescott, Kolarov, Milner, De Jong, Johnson, Silva, Nasri, Aguero.

Man Utd: Lindegaard, Smalling, Jones, Ferdinand, Evra, Valencia, Carrick, Giggs, Nani, Rooney, Welbeck.

Surprised to see so many English guys starting for Man U, but I reckon Smalling and Welbeck wouldn't usually be there, and Carrick is only a squad player too. But yeah, 6.

Arsenal and Chelsea? Sometimes none at all!

Don't forget Scholesy :pac:

Ardillaun

Benny Cake wrote: »

Or you pick a 5/6 hybrid & 2 props. Given what we saw today it might be the way to go.

I agree. We are so weak at prop, esp. TH, that we should consider having multiple subs available. No other position is so indispensable to a team.

Fireball07

Monty Burnz wrote: »

:pac:

Here are the team sheets from the Man U/Man City FA Cup game:

Man City: Pantilimon, Richards, Kompany, Lescott, Kolarov, Milner, De Jong, Johnson, Silva, Nasri, Aguero.

Man Utd: Lindegaard, Smalling, Jones, Ferdinand, Evra, Valencia, Carrick, Giggs, Nani, Rooney, Welbeck.

Surprised to see so many English guys starting for Man U, but I reckon Smalling and Welbeck wouldn't usually be there, and Carrick is only a squad player too. But yeah, 6.

Arsenal and Chelsea? Sometimes none at all!

Hart usually starts for City too although Johnson is rotated more often than not.

Welbeck does generally start and in a full-strength team...one of Smalling/Jones probably wouldn't be included at the expense of Vidic while Carrick could be dropped. Then again Cleverley or Scholes would take his place. And Young plays a lot on the wing.



The fact is that they do actually have a good few English players...but the quality at the top of the league has slipped an awful lot, hence the rubbish performances in Europe.


I'm not sure the situation is applicable to Irish rugby in any case. It's plainly obvious that a lot of the Irish team are very very good players. And....I know it's a huge if but if Ross had been fully fit for the entire game, I think we would have beaten England today. Obviously he wasn't and we were absolutely annihilated as a result, and it's not good enough that we only have 1 tighthead good enough to play internationally.

justsomebloke

Given the day that is in it I think it is time for me to banish the soccer snakes from th rugby forum:pac:

its_phil

Tox56 wrote: »

And both of those teams were knocked out in the Group Stage of the Champions League, whereas Leinster won the rugby equivalent.

Want to comment but in wrong thread....

No more football talk. Promise.