England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

its_phil

After today's annihilation, would anyone else be in agreement that Mike Ross is Ireland's most important player? Even more so than BOD or POC

Before people attack, the word is "important" not best.

durkadurka

He might be. I wonder how well we would have coped in the other games without him.

Monty Burnz

durkadurka wrote: »

He might be. I wonder how well we would have coped in the other games without him.

We might want to institute a 'pairing' arrangement so that when Ross gets injured, another one of our props simultaneously goes down in sympathy.

Fireball07

its_phil wrote: »

After today's annihilation, would anyone else be in agreement that Mike Ross is Ireland's most important player? Even more so than BOD or POC

Before people attack, the word is "important" not best.

I think so.

BOD or POC would have made a difference today imo but not as big a difference as Ross would have made. I guess it's simply because BOD and POC's replacements are at a much higher standard.

its_phil

Fireball07 wrote: »

I guess it's simply because BOD and POC's replacements are at a much higher standard.

It's pretty hard to find any replacements of their quality in any country when those lads are on form.

Fireball07

its_phil wrote: »

It's pretty hard to find any replacements of their quality in any country when those lads are on form.

Not arguing that but there's less of a drop-off from BOD to Earls/Cave or POC to Ryan/Tuohy than there is from Ross to Court/Buckley.

It wouldn't be so bad if a bad scrum didn't result in so much points going against you. Both their tries came from a destroyed scrum as well as the most of their penalties too.

As good as BOD is, he's not going to be directly responsible for scoring 30 points.

Monty Burnz

Fireball07 wrote: »

As good as BOD is, he's not going to be directly responsible for scoring 30 points.

If we played him at TH, he might...might suit him as he slows down a bit too...

Tox56

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If we played him at TH, he might...might suit him as he slows down a bit too...

Low centre of gravity, good leg drive.. you know what..

its_phil

Fireball07 wrote: »

Not arguing that but there's less of a drop-off from BOD to Earls/Cave or POC to Ryan/Tuohy than there is from Ross to Court/Buckley.

It wouldn't be so bad if a bad scrum didn't result in so much points going against you. Both their tries came from a destroyed scrum as well as the most of their penalties too.

As good as BOD is, he's not going to be directly responsible for scoring 30 points.

Of course. I wouldn't dare debate that. Didn't read the last line of your comment properly tbh

Ardillaun

First off, full credit to the English scrum. They've been on the verge of getting back to this sort of scrummaging form for a while. Without Ross, we were utterly lost.


Cian Healy - Scrummaging not dire today but not great either. I suspect he's not going to have the longest career given the number of injuries he picks up.

Rory Best - Throwing is always his weak point. Scrummaging today,,,ouch. But he ran about the field well as usual.

Mike Ross - Indispensible. He may have been injured for a while in the first half. Let's hope he's back soon. It looked like a shoulder/clavicle injury?

Tom Court - he just looked bewildered and beaten from his second scrum onward. On the very first one, he looked surprisingly good. After that, he and his side of the scrum didn't seem to attempt adjustments or protest the English boring in. There was no fire in him at all.

If we want to be serious about rugby in Ireland, we will have to produce a reasonable number of prop forwards or recruit them abroad. We can't depend on one or two players to carry our scrum for the next decade or we'll end up being shunted around by Italy.

On the bright side...I wasn't upset with any of the backs today apart from TOL. Imagine what the English backs would have done behind our scrum. Earls played well - if only he could have passed the ball on that break - and Tuilagi didn't look like breaking out at any stage. That cross kick for Heaslip was optimistic given the proximity of Croft. Sexton's place kicks looked good. As usual, he didn't make a meal of Tuilagi's body charge which should have been penalized.

Clegg

I have to mention D'arcy now. He was so bad that the BBC actually did a highlight package at halftime showing us all his errors.

It's sad because he was such a good player once upon a time. He was at his best from 03-06. He was good in 09 too. Injuries have ruined him. He no longe warrants a place in the 22. He was very poor for Ireland last 6 Nations too.

Monty Burnz

Clegg wrote: »

I have to mention D'arcy now. He was so bad that the BBC actually did a highlight package at halftime showing us all his errors.

It's sad because he was such a good player once upon a time. He was at his best from 03-06. He was good in 09 too. Injuries have ruined him. He no longe warrants a place in the 22. He was very poor for Ireland last 6 Nations too.

Yup. Brilliant player, has done brilliant things and has had a great career. A shout for the best schoolboy player in Irish history too. I'd buy him a drink any day of the week - but he's not doing it any more for Ireland. He should be allowed focus on Leinster and new centres need to be brought in ASAP to replace him and BOD for the coming decade. I'm not sure Earls is the answer either, unless the trend towards giant centres gets negated by new rules/tactics.

dougieruggie

Maybe we should force feed Macken for the next two years and hope for the best.

Is JJ Hanrahan big? He looked big enough for an U20 back.

rrpc

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yup. Brilliant player, has done brilliant things and has had a great career. A shout for the best schoolboy player in Irish history too. I'd buy him a drink any day of the week - but he's not doing it any more for Ireland. He should be allowed focus on Leinster and new centres need to be brought in ASAP to replace him and BOD for the coming decade. I'm not sure Earls is the answer either, unless the trend towards giant centres gets negated by new rules/tactics.

Can't blame D'Arcy for being picked though, especially when his replacement for Leinster is sitting on the bench.

And if it's not McFadden then whoever it is, why aren't they being developed?

RoundBox11

dougieruggie wrote: »

Maybe we should force feed Macken for the next two years and hope for the best.

Is JJ Hanrahan big? He looked big enough for an U20 back.

If you want big, look no further than Chris Farrell. U20s centre. 6'5 atm. I dont agree with the theory that big centres are better. I'd take skillful centres behind a strong pack any day.
Nevin Spence is a sturdy lad aswell. Ulster are producing some great centre prospects atm with Spence, Cave, L. Marshall, Farrell

Tox56

EOM is small but skilfull. I doubt he will get a chance, but he should.

Monty Burnz

rrpc wrote: »

Can't blame D'Arcy for being picked though, especially when his replacement for Leinster is sitting on the bench.

True. I don't.

rrpc wrote: »

And if it's not McFadden then whoever it is, why aren't they being developed?

One word. Kidney.

Remember the state he left Munster in when he left? A team of 30-somethings on the way down.

rrpc

Tox56 wrote: »

EOM is small but skilfull. I doubt he will get a chance, but he should.

He needs to, We're not so rich in centres that we can afford to overlook the few genuine ones that turn up.

sid waddell

Monty Burnz wrote: »

True. I don't.

One word. Kidney.

Remember the state he left Munster in when he left? A team of 30-somethings on the way down.

Perhaps you would have preferred if those 30-somethings had been dropped instead of winning those Heineken Cups?

rrpc

sid waddell wrote: »

Perhaps you would have preferred if those 30-somethings had been dropped instead of winning those Heineken Cups?

Did Munster win any Heineken Cups after Kidney left?

Fishooks12

To be honest I'm not going to post for a day or two about this match

Thankfully I was boozed for most of it and I don't intend on revisiting

I'm gravely concerned at the state of Irish international rugby though, especially given the players we have to choose from

I hate Kidney trolls but he needs to go this time, please go

Ardillaun

New management might well improve Ireland. Slightly. How could anyone have engineered victory for us today?

Monty Burnz

sid waddell wrote: »

Perhaps you would have preferred if those 30-somethings had been dropped instead of winning those Heineken Cups?

I'd rather the squad was kept fresh. It's called succession planning.

bogwalrus

Ardillaun wrote: »

New management might well improve Ireland. Slightly. How could anyone have engineered victory for us today?

90% of the game is psychological. Look at the young Welsh. Their mind set is fantastic. All the Irish need to do is keep getting young hungry lads in there and over a 20 yr period we will have alot more wins on the books rather then holding on to the 30 somethings we have a lot of.

tolosenc

RoundBox11 wrote: »

If you want big, look no further than Chris Farrell. U20s centre. 6'5 atm. I dont agree with the theory that big centres are better. I'd take skillful centres behind a strong pack any day.
Nevin Spence is a sturdy lad aswell. Ulster are producing some great centre prospects atm with Spence, Cave, L. Marshall, Farrell

Sheridan at Leinster is a huge lad. Haven't heard much about him for a while though.

sid waddell

rrpc wrote: »

Did Munster win any Heineken Cups after Kidney left?

You're blaming Kidney for them not winning any Heineken Cups when he wasn't coach? Interesting point of view to say the least. Should Mick O'Dwyer be blamed for Kerry not winning All-Irelands for years after he left? Maybe Jock Stein should take the blame for Celtic never winning another European Cup after he left?

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'd rather the squad was kept fresh. It's called succession planning.

I've a funny feeling Munster supporters would rather have those Heineken Cups won by thirtysomethings than have gotten rid of those players for the sake of it.

I wonder what Manchester United supporters would say if a squad with Giggs and Scholes in it wins them the English league this year. Ditto Kilkenny hurling followers if they win the All-Ireland with Henry Shefflin and Noel Hickey.

You don't get rid of older players for the sake of it.

Ardillaun

bogwalrus wrote: »

90% of the game is psychological. Look at the young Welsh. Their mind set is fantastic. All the Irish need to do is keep getting young hungry lads in there and over a 20 yr period we will have alot more wins on the books rather then holding on to the 30 somethings we have a lot of.

My view is vice versa - competence produces confidence. No amount of
self-esteem building could have saved our scrum today.

leftleg

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2012/0317/kidneyd_sixnations.html

"Tom Court came on and went valiantly, but our balance was off. That was always on the cards because we have guys who don't have huge tighthead experience playing for Ireland at the moment.

"It's something we'll have to work on and bring more Irish guys through."

bit late don't you think deco :mad:

tolosenc

leftleg wrote: »

bit late don't you think deco :mad:

With a bit of luck, he'll be out of a job in a few days, and some fresh faces can get to work shoring up the gaps he's created.

Clegg

Kidney will still be here for the New Zealand internationals.

I think the IRFU will let him see out his contract even though he's proven he's not the man for the job anymore.