England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

OldRio

rrpc wrote: »

Sorry, I was somewhat tongue in cheek also. Your point was well made, I just wanted to take the small silver lining you'd found away from you.

You are a swine and a cad sir.
That was bad yesterday. Really bad. Thank goodness for Mr Guinness .

MungBean

Hyperbullet wrote: »

You could have put the greatest back line in the world right now (including McFadden seeing as you rate him so highly) on in that second half and they still wouldn't have turned it around.

No but Kidney destroyed any chance we had with the changes he made. We were getting destroyed in the scrum and Kidney destroyed the back line to balance it.

10 is the most important position when your back-line is your only weapon, you dont move your best 10 out of position when you have centre cover on the bench. And you dont bring on a guy at 9 who is only there because two guys ahead of him are unavailable. Reddan playing poorly is still twice the SH TOL is on form and thats why he's so far down the pecking order. How long have others waited behind those ahead of them when trying to advance ? Yet TOL straight back in despite being on the decline and being a last resort to fill the bench spot the second Reddan isnt playing out of his skin.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

He doesn't have the passing game for 12 and isn't a great breaking threat there either. Sexton is a much better option there and his skillset is very suited to 12 imo. Then there is just weighing up the options of whether ROG, D'Arcy or McFadden bring more to the team. The answer is undoubtedly ROG even though he hasn't performed well this 6N.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that, I'm confident I have seen otherwise when he has played with Leinster.

dougieruggie

McFadden doesnt have a great breaking threat?

LOL.

Fishooks12

dougieruggie wrote: »

McFadden doesnt have a great breaking threat?

LOL.

Not from what he's shown at International level he doesn't

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Not from what he's shown at International level he doesn't

At 12? Maybe not great, but he is effective there and hasn't had much of a chance.

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

At 12? Maybe not great, but he is effective there and hasn't had much of a chance.

People were baffled at how Kidney selected DOC when he can't start for Munster

I'm equally baffled at his decision to select McFadden when in all likely hood he won't start Leinsters HC quarter

It gets even more confusing when you opt in the fact that Kidney clearly doesn't trust him at 12

dougieruggie

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Not from what he's shown at International level he doesn't

Hes only had 4 starts at international level and hes got 3 tries to his name. He has a massive ability to break through tackles and score tries.

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

People were baffled at how Kidney selected DOC when he can't start for Munster

I'm equally baffled at his decision to select McFadden when in all likely hood he won't start Leinsters HC quarter

It gets even more confusing when you opt in the fact that Kidney clearly doesn't trust him at 12

2 compltely different situations, McFadden was regularly starting big games for Leinster due to rotation. DOC couldn't get a start for Munster, McFadden can and is trusted at 12. DOC was keeping his replacement out of the side

D'Arcy was in terrible form and needed to be removed. When you remove him, you have a choice between a 10 who hasn't played all season at 12 for his province, and a player who has played regularly at 12 in that same team.

The situations are completely different. Not least because of McFadden's versatility.

Cpt_Blackbeard

dougieruggie wrote: »

McFadden doesnt have a great breaking threat?

LOL.

Not at 12 at international level. Although he hasn't had the chance to prove me wrong. Neither Schmidt or Kidney currently view McFadden as a better 12 than D'Arcy. D'Arcy is patently not capable at this level, so its pretty safe to assume that McFadden won't be either.

The ROG-Sexton axis isn't a great idea looking forward, but it has been our best option with the current squad when used. Playing at 12 should actually help Sexton develop his game and learn a new appreciation for what he wants his 10 to do imo.

Regardless, Downey and Wallace were by far the best stop gap solutions at 12 for the 6N, but neither were selected. Wallace is a good footballing 12 who would have been great to utilise to get the most out of our outside backs, but as he is never used correctly at this level, I'd prefer to have seen Downey at 12. He's not a great player but, a simple 12 who could truck it up and defend well would have been good to have in the squad considering out options.

Looking forward, a giant like Farrell and a 2nd 5/8 like Hanrahan/Marshall should really allow us to vary our game to suit the opposition.

dougieruggie

Fishooks12 wrote: »

People were baffled at how Kidney selected DOC when he can't start for Munster

Its not the same though is it? DOC was starting AHEAD (from the beginning) of someone who was starting ahead of him at Munster.

McFadden is behind D'arcy at Leinster and started behind him at Ireland. As D'arcys form continued to regress people naturally called for the no.2 in line to be given a shot.

I am baffled how you think bringing on ROG and moving Sexton to 12 is the more logical option.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Not at 12 at international level. Although he hasn't had the chance to prove me wrong. Neither Schmidt or Kidney currently view McFadden as a better 12 than D'Arcy. D'Arcy is patently not capable at this level, so its pretty safe to assume that McFadden won't be either.

The ROG-Sexton axis isn't a great idea looking forward, but it has been our best option with the current squad when used. Playing at 12 should actually help Sexton develop his game and learn a new appreciation for what he wants his 10 to do imo.

Regardless, Downey and Wallace were by far the best stop gap solutions at 12 for the 6N, but neither were selected. Wallace is a good footballing 12 who would have been great to utilise to get the most out of our outside backs, but as he is never used correctly at this level, I'd prefer to have seen Downey at 12. He's not a great player but, a simple 12 who could truck it up and defend well would have been good to have in the squad considering out options.

Looking forward, a giant like Farrell and a 2nd 5/8 like Hanrahan/Marshall should really allow us to vary our game to suit the opposition.

That is incredibly flawed logic.

Please just tell me you can see how ridiculous that is?

Cpt_Blackbeard

Tox56 wrote: »

That is incredibly flawed logic.

Please just tell me you can see how ridiculous that is?

It is a big assumption, but one that I don't think is absurd to make.

If the player who is viewed as better than you at club level isn't good enough for international level, there is no reason to assume that you'll be good enough at that level.

Fishooks12

dougieruggie wrote: »

Its not the same though is it? DOC was starting AHEAD (from the beginning) of someone who was starting ahead of him at Munster.

McFadden is behind D'arcy at Leinster and started behind him at Ireland. As D'arcys form continued to regress people naturally called for the no.2 in line to be given a shot.

I am baffled how you think bringing on ROG and moving Sexton to 12 is the more logical option.

I didn't say anything about that so not sure where that came from

I'd prefer McFadden to Darcy at 12 but tbh I don't think McFadden would get near the 22 if I was picking the team. I'd Fitzgerald and Wallace ahead of him for starters

Hyperbullet

MungBean wrote: »

No but Kidney destroyed any chance we had with the changes he made. We were getting destroyed in the scrum and Kidney destroyed the back line to balance it.

10 is the most important position when your back-line is your only weapon, you dont move your best 10 out of position when you have centre cover on the bench. And you dont bring on a guy at 9 who is only there because two guys ahead of him are unavailable. Reddan playing poorly is still twice the SH TOL is on form and thats why he's so far down the pecking order. How long have others waited behind those ahead of them when trying to advance ? Yet TOL straight back in despite being on the decline and being a last resort to fill the bench spot the second Reddan isnt playing out of his skin.

I don't agree with TOL being in there either, but I love how people expect miracles from the back line when it's the forwards that were wiped out. Full credit to them for still giving it everything when they had little left in the tank, but you could have put an on-form Dan Carter in at 10 yesterday and nothing would have changed.

I do think it was a bit silly bringing on ROG and TOL as Kidney did yesterday, but I find myself questioning what else he was meant to do?

Tox56

Hyperbullet wrote: »

I don't agree with TOL being in there either, but I love how people expect miracles from the back line when it's the forwards that were wiped out. Full credit to them for still giving it everything when they had little left in the tank, but you could have put an on-form Dan Carter in at 10 yesterday and nothing would have changed.

I do think it was a bit silly bringing on ROG and TOL as Kidney did yesterday, but I find myself questioning what else he was meant to do?

LEAVE TOL ON THE BENCH, why would you bring on a poor passing scrum-half on a wet day when you want to avoid scrums??

ironingbored

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The ROG-Sexton axis isn't a great idea looking forward, but it has been our best option with the current squad when used. Playing at 12 should actually help Sexton develop his game and learn a new appreciation for what he wants his 10 to do imo.

It's hard to argue with this...






being the biggest load of tripe I've read in a while.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The ROG-Sexton axis isn't a great idea looking forward, but it has been our best option with the current squad when used. Playing at 12 should actually help Sexton develop his game and learn a new appreciation for what he wants his 10 to do imo. people who don't accept Sexton is the better 10 now and will propose anything (like Declan Kiddinme) to have ROG on the pitch despite it being a bat**** crazy decision

Fixed

mfceiling

Are we 99% sure that the team for the 1st game against the all blacks will be the team that lined up for the kick off yesterday (bar serious injury).

DK will trot the line that "the boys were hurting after the England game and they've been itching to get going again so I've got to give them the chance to put things right"

Meanwhile other players who thought they may have been in with a chance of getting into the squad, never mind the team, just become less interested in the national set up...and who can blame them.

Cpt_Blackbeard

ironingbored wrote: »

It's hard to argue with this...






being the biggest load of tripe I've read in a while.



Fixed

Come off it. No analyst in Ireland has a problem with it. Even the adored COS seems to view it favorably. The only people complaining about it are the ones who consistently come up for excuses for every single mistake Sexton makes and want ROG out of the picture.

totallegend

mfceiling wrote: »

Are we 99% sure that the team for the 1st game against the all blacks will be the team that lined up for the kick off yesterday (bar serious injury).

DK will trot the line that "the boys were hurting after the England game and they've been itching to get going again so I've got to give them the chance to put things right".

Pretty much, yeah but Murray will be back, as will BOD and O'Connell.

Fishooks12

totallegend wrote: »

Pretty much, yeah but Murray will be back, as will BOD and O'Connell.

Hard to see Fitzgerald being ignored if he regains his form pre injury

I think Darcy cooked his own gooses yday though, even in Kidneys eyes

ironingbored

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Come off it. No analyst in Ireland has a problem with it. Even the adored COS seems to view it favorably. The only people complaining about it are the ones who consistently come up for excuses for every single mistake Sexton makes and want ROG out of the picture.

Sexton is the better player now. No argument. Where are all these mistakes?

ROG is an Irish rugby legend but should be involved in last 10mins or if injury occurs.

Same for Darcy and DOC (before being accused of provincial bias).

There is no coach in the world who would move Sexton to 12 (bar Kidney).

Fishooks12

Sexton might be glad of having international 12 on his CV if Madigan continues his progression !

Cpt_Blackbeard

ironingbored wrote: »

Sexton is the better player now. No argument. Where are all these mistakes?

ROG is an Irish rugby legend but should be involved in last 10mins or if injury occurs.

Same for Darcy and DOC (before being accused of provincial bias).

There is no coach in the world who would move Sexton to 12 (bar Kidney).

So what if Sexton is the better player? The Sexton-ROG axis has nothing to do with devaluation of Sexton's ability. Sexton is a better 12 than McFadden (D'Arcy too imo.) and 10 than ROG. If D'Arcy has to come off the field, it is a straight shootout between McFadden and ROG, and ROG will never lose that battle.

You could not possibly prove the bolded part. COS seems to view it as a good idea too and many of us would jump at the chance for him to manage Ireland.

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

So what if Sexton is the better player? The Sexton-ROG axis has nothing to do with devaluation of Sexton's ability. Sexton is a better 12 than McFadden (D'Arcy too imo.) and 10 than ROG. If D'Arcy has to come off the field, it is a straight shootout between McFadden and ROG, and ROG will never lose that battle.

You could not possibly prove the bolded part. COS seems to view it as a good idea too and many of us would jump at the chance for him to manage Ireland.

The arguement is Sextons a better 10 than he is a 12 and hes a better 10 than ROG so the whole thing is pointless; swap a 10 for a 10; swap a 12 for a 12; its just mickey mouse tactics if you ask me;

btw who is COS?

GerM

dougieruggie wrote: »

Hes only had 4 starts at international level and hes got 3 tries to his name. He has a massive ability to break through tackles and score tries.

In fairness, McFadden's 3 tries combine for a total of about 2 yards of ground. Two pick and go tries on the line and one catch in the in goal area. For a guy who actually has some very good speed he's not someone that breaks the line, he tends to take contact instead of picking the gaps. He could be a very good, powerful winger but I don't think he'll ever make the grade as an international centre in either inside or outside positions. With that said, I'd still rather him coming in at 12 than the ROG/Sexton axis which doesn't make any logical sense.

In relation to the propping situation, if we're going to have the likes of McCarthy or Ryan in the side, I'd rather see us just drop one of our bench options or McFadden and go with two props. We can't have a situation like yesterday arising again until we develop someone that can play both sides or the rules change to 23 man squads.

Fishooks12

leftleg wrote: »

The arguement is Sextons a better 10 than he is a 12 and hes a better 10 than ROG so the whole thing is pointless; swap a 10 for a 10; swap a 12 for a 12; its just mickey mouse tactics if you ask me;

btw who is COS?

Conor O Shea

irishbucsfan

Sexton should be staying at 10. That's obivous. The ROG/Sexton 5/8th line has not worked at all any time it's been deployed. Defensively its sound, and thats good to know in case of an emergency, but Sexton isnt a good attacking 12 so far.

There are other options at 12. Paddy Wallace, McFadden. Why did we not try either one at any point in the 6 Nations? If even just to give D'Arcy a kick up the arse?



Anyway I'm sure the team against NZ will be

Healy, Best, Ross, DOC/Ryan, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, D'Arcy, Bowe, Kearmey

Cronin, Court, Ryan/DOC, Wallace, Reddan, O'Gara, Fitzgerald/McFadden

and after 50 minutes against the All Blacks O'Gara will come on. We may even see TOL on the bench ahead of Reddan. Who knows.

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Sexton might be glad of having international 12 on his CV if Madigan continues his progression !

Don't think Sexton has anything to worry about. Madigan is getting a lot of hype as the new kid on the block this season. His progression in the weak areas of his game is very slow though. Sexton had HEC starts, an ML medal and a HEC medal in his pocket at 23. There's more chance of Madigan being used as a second playmaker from 15 than Sexton moving out the line, and there's very little chance of that either.

ironingbored

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

So what if Sexton is the better player? The Sexton-ROG axis has nothing to do with devaluation of Sexton's ability. Sexton is a better 12 than McFadden (D'Arcy too imo.) and 10 than ROG. If D'Arcy has to come off the field, it is a straight shootout between McFadden and ROG, and ROG will never lose that battle.

You could not possibly prove the bolded part. COS seems to view it as a good idea too and many of us would jump at the chance for him to manage Ireland.

Straight from the Fr. Declan school of thought:

Better player? Move you out of position. (Sexton)

Better player? You're not starting. (Ryan)

Super every time you've come on? You're still not starting. (Ryan)

Better player/playing better? I'm taking you off on 43 mins for someone who has been playing rank for 2 years (Reddan)

Playing badly? I'll move our best 10 playing well to 12 and ignore the 12 on the bench? (Darcy)

Become indispensable to our scrum? I'll ignore you for 18 months until the 37 year old (who just about held up the scrum) is injured (Ross)