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England v Ireland St Patricks Day 2012

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    #1292
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,916 ✭✭✭OldRio


    When TOL box kicked out of play for the second time. The body language of some of the players told its own story.
    Things are not right in he dressing room IMHO.
    Hardly surprising.
    Kidney should go. Do the honorable thing.

    Never felt so low after a game.
    It was embarrassing at times.


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    #1293
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,721 ✭✭✭✭phog


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    TOL was awful. It was really embarrassing for the lad. Reddan wasn't great but he at least did some things well.

    The second ROG and TOL came on our chances of winning disappeared. It was a ludicrous substitution. We were getting hammered in the set piece, we needed to keep ball in hand... So we brought on TOL and ROG!? Laughable. The game just became an excercise in damage limitation at that point.

    I agree about TOL but have to disagree about ROG, I assume Kideny has more faith in Sexton being at 12 than McFadden and he wanted Darcy off.
    OldRio wrote: »
    When TOL box kicked out of play for the second time. The body language of some of the players told its own story.
    .

    Did you see the body language when Reddan boxkicked when his runners were in a heap under the ruck and couldn't chase his kick.
    Things are not right in he dressing room IMHO.
    Hardly surprising.
    Kidney should go. Do the honorable thing.

    Similar was said after the 2007 world cup I've yet to hear anything concrete though.


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    #1294
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    phog wrote: »
    I agree about TOL but have to disagree about ROG, I assume Kideny has more faith in Sexton being at 12 than McFadden and he wanted Darcy off.
    Why have McFadden there if he doesn't trust him? And if he's defensively suspect, how does ROG improve things?
    Did you see the body language when Reddan boxkicked when his runners were in a heap under the ruck and couldn't chase his kick.
    You have to boxkick to get out of defensively dangerous positions, the chase runners are secondary to getting the ball out of your own half. OTOH, kicking to touch on the full does not inprove matters in any way.
    Similar was said after the 2007 world cup I've yet to hear anything concrete though.
    You never will. The upshot of the 2007 RWC was an early exit by EOS after the 2008 6N, which was almost as bad a 6N as this one. There were comments made by the players after the 2009 grand slam that gave some insight into how bad things were.


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    #1295
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    TOL was absolutely pathetic. Not sure he has any business playing for Munster let alone Ireland.


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    #1296
    dougieruggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭dougieruggie


    phog wrote: »
    I agree about TOL but have to disagree about ROG, I assume Kideny has more faith in Sexton being at 12 than McFadden and he wanted Darcy off.

    You disagree about ROG?? Everything he did turned to muck yesterday! He the worst player after O'Leary to bring on to chase a game. Funnily enough McFadden would have been an excellent player to bring on to chase a game as well.


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    #1297
    dougieruggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭dougieruggie


    danthefan wrote: »
    TOL was absolutely pathetic. Not sure he has any business playing for Munster let alone Ireland.

    You could see from the body language that the players were not happy with him coming on.

    9-6 before ROG and TOL came on.


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    #1298
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,721 ✭✭✭✭phog


    dougieruggie wrote: »
    You could see from the body language that the players were not happy with him coming on.

    9-6 before ROG and TOL came on.

    You do realise that neither were part of a crumbling scrum, dont you?


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    #1299
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    phog wrote: »
    You do realise that neither were part of a crumbling scrum, dont you?

    I don't think ROG and TOL lost the game or anything like that, but they were completely the wrong people to bring on at the time, particularly TOL.


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    #1300
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    phog wrote: »
    You do realise that neither were part of a crumbling scrum, dont you?
    You make a very good point. I think you should tell Declan Kidney that. ;)


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    #1301
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,721 ✭✭✭✭phog


    danthefan wrote: »
    TOL was absolutely pathetic. Not sure he has any business playing for Munster let alone Ireland.

    dougieruggie wrote: »
    You could see from the body language that the players were not happy with him coming on.

    9-6 before ROG and TOL came on.

    Are either of you suggesting we'd have won if Sexton and Reddan stayed at 10 & 9?


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    #1302
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    We'd have been better of playing with 14 men yesterday instead of 15 with TOL.


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    #1303
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    phog wrote: »
    Are either of you suggesting we'd have won if Sexton and Reddan stayed at 10 & 9?
    I know it isn't directed at me, but to me it just smacked of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic...


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    #1304
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,721 ✭✭✭✭phog


    rrpc wrote: »
    I know it isn't directed at me, but to me it just smacked of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic...

    I agree and if Kidney didn't make changes we'd have uproar today too, they didn't work, looking at the game yesterday if all 21 were on yesterday and Ross off injured I'd doubt we'd have won.


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    #1305
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    phog wrote: »
    I agree and if Kidney didn't make changes we'd have uproar today too, they didn't work, looking at the game yesterday if all 21 were on yesterday and Ross off injured I'd doubt we'd have won.

    I doubt there would be uproar if TOL wasn't brought on..


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    #1306
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    TOL's awful passing hardly helped reduce the number of scrums.


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    #1307
    dougieruggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭dougieruggie


    phog wrote: »
    You do realise that neither were part of a crumbling scrum, dont you?

    We were 3pts down with a crumbling scrum before they came on.

    I dont know what would have happened but I do know TOL cost us 14pts and that ROG gave away enourmous amounts of posession.

    Both were awful and hopefully for the good of the national team, we never see either of them in green again.


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    #1308
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    phog wrote: »
    I agree and if Kidney didn't make changes we'd have uproar today too, they didn't work, looking at the game yesterday if all 21 were on yesterday and Ross off injured I'd doubt we'd have won.
    And that's exactly what it looked like; doing something to be seen to be doing something.

    It's almost as if he was listening to the RTE commentary and reacting to what they were saying. How they can advocate having ROG and Sexton on at the same time is beyond me. I cannot for the life of me see what it brings.


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    #1309
    dougieruggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭dougieruggie


    phog wrote: »
    I agree and if Kidney didn't make changes we'd have uproar today too, they didn't work, looking at the game yesterday if all 21 were on yesterday and Ross off injured I'd doubt we'd have won.

    No. Theres uproar because Kidney brought on TOL and ROG. Two of the worst players possible to bring on to chase a game and two players who simply are not up to it at international level anymore.

    Our scrum was a shambles but we were competitive before that. Those two contributed in a massive way to the problems we were already facing. TOL through being responsible for two tries and knock ons through his awful passing and ROG by giving the ball back to the English every time and throwing poor passes.


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    #1310
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,916 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Well at least when TOL boxkicks the chasers can have a bit of a rest.
    Pointless chasing when the ball goes out on the full.


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    #1311
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    OldRio wrote: »
    Well at least when TOL boxkicks the chasers can have a bit of a rest.
    Pointless chasing when the ball goes out on the full.
    Umm, no, they still have to chase to prevent a quick throw.


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    #1312
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,916 ✭✭✭OldRio


    I was been sarcastic to an earlier post


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    #1313
    Hyperbullet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭Hyperbullet


    dougieruggie wrote: »
    You could see from the body language that the players were not happy with him coming on.

    9-6 before ROG and TOL came on.

    Right and you're a body language expert?

    Forwards win games, backs decide by how much. And considering our forwards were getting destroyed by England at scrum time it was heartbreaking to see how wrecked they were after 50-60 minutes of play. Ever been involved in a constantly retreating scrum? It's energy sapping stuff.

    You could have put the greatest back line in the world right now (including McFadden seeing as you rate him so highly) on in that second half and they still wouldn't have turned it around.


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    #1314
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    OldRio wrote: »
    I was been sarcastic to an earlier post
    Sorry, I was somewhat tongue in cheek also. Your point was well made, I just wanted to take the small silver lining you'd found away from you. ;)


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    #1315
    dougieruggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭dougieruggie


    I rate McFadden so highly?

    I said in another thread that he'll never be more than average at international level.


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    #1316
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    TOL shoundt have been brought on at all unless Reddan was having a shocker and there was no alternative. But Reddan wasnt having a shocker, we replaced a great scrum half who wasnt playing to normal standards with a poor scrum half who shouldnt even realistically be making the wolfhounds and I dont think anyone is surprised at the result.

    I agree with those who say they are embarrassed for TOL. Kidney has a knack for making players take the blame for his incompetence. TOL did what was asked of him, the problem was it should never have been asked.


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    #1317
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    dougieruggie wrote: »
    You disagree about ROG?? Everything he did turned to muck yesterday! He the worst player after O'Leary to bring on to chase a game. Funnily enough McFadden would have been an excellent player to bring on to chase a game as well.

    Same McFadden who has helped us concede 3 tries in his last two starts? He is a decent industrious winger at this level, but nothing more (currently).


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    #1318
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    I doubt there are many people here that would be able to answer this, but what is the difficulty in moving a regular Tight-Head to Loosehead? For example, could we have Hagan(just for eg.) on the bench as a natural Tight-Head, but if Healy gets injured he can fill in at Loose-Head?

    Tight-Head is the far harder side to scrum on, so surely they could switch easy enough to the other side?

    Maybe it would require a little practice, but it couldn't be that difficult, could it?


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    #1319
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Hyperbullet wrote: »
    Right and you're a body language expert?

    Forwards win games, backs decide by how much. And considering our forwards were getting destroyed by England at scrum time it was heartbreaking to see how wrecked they were after 50-60 minutes of play. Ever been involved in a constantly retreating scrum? It's energy sapping stuff.

    You could have put the greatest back line in the world right now (including McFadden seeing as you rate him so highly) on in that second half and they still wouldn't have turned it around.
    I think that's the point. Your forwards are getting mullered to death, hanging on by their fingernails and losing and the coach's answer is to immediately put on a completely out of form SH and move your 10 to 12 to make way for another 10.

    Confusion would be the lesser emotion experienced...


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    #1320
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Same McFadden who has helped us concede 3 tries in his last two starts? He is a decent industrious winger at this level, but nothing more (currently).

    Play him at 12 not 13, he has played and defended well in that position for Leinster, surely no more of a defensive liability than ROG?


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    #1321
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Play him at 12 not 13, he has played and defended well in that position for Leinster, surely no more of a defensive liability than ROG?

    He doesn't have the passing game for 12 and isn't a great breaking threat there either. Sexton is a much better option there and his skillset is very suited to 12 imo. Then there is just weighing up the options of whether ROG, D'Arcy or McFadden bring more to the team. The answer is undoubtedly ROG even though he hasn't performed well this 6N.


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